Alternative Structure to Black Belt Ranks

[Makalakumu]

Okay, this is something that I've had to think about since I have students who are approaching chodan. I need to preface this by saying that I run a small independent Tang Soo Do school and that I have currently been revamping all of my curriculum in order to make it work better.

With that being said, I've been contemplating an alternative structure for black belt ranking. My idea was that I'd like to create a structure that puts the onus of training on the student. I'd like for my bb students to take responsibility to pursue their own interests and I'd like to faccilitate a structure where bbs are collegues instead of teacher/students.

I'm not exactly sure how this would look, so what I'm asking for is this...

How does your art structure its blackbelt curriculum? If you do something, why do you do it that way?

My initial thoughts on this would be to do away with the whole stripe and master system. My thought is that this would do away with the hierarchical structure and put everyone on even footing. My thought is that it also would encourage everyone to learn from each other more and maybe take things into different directions. I don't know, these are just some initial thoughts.

Your thoughts?

 

[stone_dragone]

The curriculum I follow uses a "credit" system. The onus is on the black belt student to continue their studies under the supervision of the instructor, but expects the student to put forth more effort into their own education.

Excerpt from our handbook (I hope this helps):

[FONT=&quot]Requirements for Promotion Past Shodan[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Once a student is promoted to Shodan, it is the equivalent of a High School diploma within the martial arts. It is after a student earns their black belt that their training in the martial arts is said to truly begin. Martial education after Shodan is similar to college courses in that more of the requirements for promotion are directly affected by the student’s studies outside of the dojo as well as the continued practice and improvement. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In addition to minimum time-in-rank requirements for promotion beyond Shodan, the following requirements also apply:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Minimum Credits Required for[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Nidan 215 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Sandan 250 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Yondan 300 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Godan 400 Credits[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Teaching Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 10 Hours of Teaching [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Assistant Instructor 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Primary Instructor 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Outside Martial Art Training[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Another Style of Karate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Intermediate Rank (6th- 4th kyu) 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Advanced Rank (3rd-1st kyu)) 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Shodan or Higher 15 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Another Percussive Art (TKD, Kenpo, etc) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Intermediate Rank 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Advanced Rank 15 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Shodan or Higher 20 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] A completely different Art (Kung Fu, Jujutsu, etc)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Intermediate Rank 20 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Advanced Rank 25 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Shodan or Higher 30 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tournament Involvement[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Competing [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] One Division 1 Credit[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Judging[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] One Division 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]CPR or First Aid Training[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Certification 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Instructor Certification 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Independent Research[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Book Report (From [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Reading[/FONT][FONT=&quot] List) 5-10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Research Paper (Approved Topic) 5 -15 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Article Publication (Black Belt, Inside Karate, etc) 25 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] In-depth Bunkai Presentation 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Other Approved Project 5-25 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Each new approved Kata 15 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Seminar Participation[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] In-School 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Out of School 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Hosting a seminar 15 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Teaching at a seminar 25 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Weapon Training[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Demonstrate Weapon Proficiency[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Each New Weapon 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Each New Kata, Old Weapon 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Community Contribution[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Significant Service, Contributions, etc 5-50 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Military Service 5 Credits/year (only since last promotion)[/FONT]

 

[Jin Gang]

Why not do away with ranks after shodan? Once a student has shown their commitment and skill to that point, you know they are serious about training. Put the focus on just training, do away with most of the formalities of the lower rank classes. The blackbelt classes in my first karate dojo were like this, we didn't wear full uniforms most of the time, just gi pants and a t-shirt. Training was outside as often as possible. We focused on exploring new applications and developing new drills, in addition to practicing kata. We still had dan ranks, and a couple kata to learn at each one, so some of the black belt class was spent learning new material. There were no stripes or anything added to the belts after shodan. Dan ranks were awarded, but unless you were a part of the group you wouldn't be able to tell what rank anyone was.

If it were me, I'd do away with the ranks altogether, even in lower levels. but especially once there is a group of dedicated students ready to really begin training...the focus should be simply on training itself, not on achieving some illusionary goal of rank or prestige.

 

[JWLuiza]

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/11/10/the-jefferson-karate-club/

I think you'll like this idea with the way you are already thinking.

 

[still learning]

Hello, It would be nice to make everyone equal footing.

Our society will always need a person in charge, the leader, someone who makes all the final decisions.

There will always be a need for 2,3.4 and so on down the line.

One day your black belts may want to open their own branch or school...why not let them and start your own Franchises'/ownerships,

You can have first generations of students and 2nds and so on....study this on other Major martial organzitions.

Your Black belts are NOW CONSIDER ALMOST ON EQUAL FOOTING...because they NOW become the tearcher of their students..you will always be there teacher...and law maker!

Rankings will always be needed to set who is next in line and in charge, yet all your Black belts can be a council (advisor group) for the whole organzitions.

The future is in your hands...to grow your style of teaching and helping others achieve the same success as you have!

Aloha ,

 

[Blindside]

How does your art structure its blackbelt curriculum? If you do something, why do you do it that way?

My initial thoughts on this would be to do away with the whole stripe and master system. My thought is that this would do away with the hierarchical structure and put everyone on even footing. My thought is that it also would encourage everyone to learn from each other more and maybe take things into different directions. I don't know, these are just some initial thoughts.

Your thoughts?

We still use the standard rank system, but besides our standard requirements we get assigned projects along the way, most of the time it is: "go out and get something new." Two of us went out, studied for several years (still studying) and got instructorships in an FMA, we now teach that after our regular class. Most people just went out and get a form or two from another instructor. These things don't become requirements for anybody, but it brings a body of knowledge back to the school that becomes a possible resource. It also broadens the new BBs perspective about martial arts as they are forced to go out into the wider martial arts world and interact with different systems and different instructors.

Lamont

 

[Flying Crane]

Okay, this is something that I've had to think about since I have students who are approaching chodan. I need to preface this by saying that I run a small independent Tang Soo Do school and that I have currently been revamping all of my curriculum in order to make it work better.

Hi John,

I like to see that you are thinking outside the box again. This is a topic I have contemplated as well, altho I am only shodan, and I am not a teacher.

Could you clarify a bit, in your own training up to this point I am assuming that you have been following a curriculum established either by your own instructor, or else a larger organization that he belongs to. Is this an accurate assumption?

It looks like you must be comfortable with splitting from how your instructor has done it in the past. Do you still have a connection with him, or have you gone your separate ways and you are making your own judgements on how best to do things?

What is it about the way you trained, that you feel ought to be changed? What got you to thinking about this in the first place? Is there something in the curriculum structure that you have been unsatisfied with?

With that being said, I've been contemplating an alternative structure for black belt ranking. My idea was that I'd like to create a structure that puts the onus of training on the student. I'd like for my bb students to take responsibility to pursue their own interests and I'd like to faccilitate a structure where bbs are collegues instead of teacher/students.

interesting, self-directed studies...

I'm not exactly sure how this would look, so what I'm asking for is this...

How does your art structure its blackbelt curriculum? If you do something, why do you do it that way?

well, in Tracy kenpo we have an established curriculum well into the Dan grades. We have a list of Self Defense techniques for all belt levels, up to 5th degree, as well as katas. I believe there are katas that are formally on the list beyond 5th, altho I suspect there is a certain level of instructor discretion and they may be taught at earlier levels. This is the formal structure of the curriculum, and has been established by Al Tracy, the leader of our organization and our particular lineage of Kenpo. Mr. Tracy was one of the early students of Ed Parker, back in the late 1950s and 1960s. He eventually separated from Mr. Parker and has established his own methodology of kenpo.

One thing my instructor does for Nidan, is that before he teaches the formal Nidan curriculum, he reteaches all the material up to Shodan. He feels once you have reached this level, you are ready to go back and discover a lot of the finer details of all the self-defense techs and kata with the eye of experience, in order to make them even stronger. Once you have done this, everything you do from there on will be stronger yet.

My instructor also incorporates certain elements of other arts that he has studied outside kenpo. He does this at various points where he feels it is appropriate.

My initial thoughts on this would be to do away with the whole stripe and master system. My thought is that this would do away with the hierarchical structure and put everyone on even footing. My thought is that it also would encourage everyone to learn from each other more and maybe take things into different directions. I don't know, these are just some initial thoughts.

I've thought a lot about this and have posted a couple times a scheme that I think could work well, altho I suspect a lot of people would not embrace it. It would only use two levels of black belt, and eliminat all Dan grades. Instead, you would be first Blackbelt Non-Teaching Status, and then Black Belt Teaching Status. That would be the highest level formally awarded. Once you reach that level, you would be authorized to fully teach and give promotions, up to Teaching Status. Of course everyone knows who is still senior and who has more to teach, and everyone ought to realize they have more to learn, but the whole distraction of higher ranks and heirarchy would be removed from the picture. I feel that once one reaches that level, he/she should not need the carrot of further rank dangled in front of their face to keep training. They ought to be motivated enough to pursue training because they have made a personal commitment to it.

Anyway, these are some thoughts, hope they help you.

 

[Sukerkin]

Just a thought to add into the mix.

Martial arts ranking systems, as we've discussed before, are a 'teaching aid' that was created primarily for use by Western students because of the inate need to 'grade' students one against another in a manner familiar to us (this applies to the pre-shodan level obviously).

I agree with SL that at those levels a hierarchical structure with small-step incremental goals is very useful to a student.

Beyond shodan, which is what the core thrust of the topic aims at, it becomes more problematic. On the one hand, I concur with FC that to have only a 'teaching' and 'non-teaching' distinction would be sufficient as anyone who persists past black-belt has shown they are committed to the art and will continue practising. Alternatively, altho' it is not a goal in and off itself, it is good to recognise that degrees of improvement continue after shodan.

For myself, although grading up was the last thing on my mind, I really value my nidan as a tangible symbol of my improvement - this is despite the fact that we wear no insignia of rank in iai and the only way anyone would ever know was if they asked me. Well, I hope they could tell if they watched me too but you get my point :lol:. Of course, MJER is a koryu art, so certain elements of status are inherent within post-shodan rank and time-in-rank and that may well be colouring my views.

Where I'm heading with this train of thought that 'ranking systems' really depend upon the nature and personality of the students. If they like things organised, with 'tiers' of accepted competence, then belts perform a useful function. If they feel quite capable of gauging their progress one against the other without such a system then all power to them.

 

[silatman]

My first question would have to be, Why do you want your students on your level? Have you run out of knowledge to share with them? Do they know more than you?
I don't understand your reasoning behind wanting to change the relationship with them.

My instructor runs a invitation only session where he invites people that he thinks can contribute to an open forum, regardless of rank. In these sessions a technique is shown, could be anything from anyone, then it is thrown open to everyone's interpretation. Doing this, all sorts of things come up and the original starting technique is rarely even seen after about 2 minutes of play time.

Personally I want my instructor to always be my instructor, of course he is also a valued friend and confidant but he is ALWAYS foremost my instructor. I can't see any good from creating a group of equals when hopefully you are still the most knowledgable in the group as you are the instructor, do you or will you still charge them?
If you want to reward them and be their mate invite them over for a bbq, leave the training alone.

These are just personal thoughts, best of luck to you and your system.

 

[Makalakumu]

At some point, the term "student" ceases to have any meaning because both "teacher" and "student" are learning so much from each other. I would hope that my "students" respected my skill level enough that they would continue to want to learn from me. The flip side of this is that if a student goes out and starts taking the learning in different ways, I'd like to create an environment where that can be freely analyzed and shared.

 

[Blindside]

My first question would have to be, Why do you want your students on your level? Have you run out of knowledge to share with them? Do they know more than you?
I don't understand your reasoning behind wanting to change the relationship with them.

Hmm, my instructor claims his goal is to make us better than him, I assumed that was most instructor's goal. Lets face it, at some point on the learning curve it isn't about new material, its refining what you already have to be better and better. Why wouldn't I want a peer group to challenge each other to do just that?

My instructor credits us (the other black belts) with making him better, we push him, he pushes back. He is still our instructor, but it is more of a "first among equals" approach rather than an authoritarian rule. I don’t see the downside to this approach that you seem to be projecting.

Lamont

 

[JWLuiza]

At some point, the term "student" ceases to have any meaning because both "teacher" and "student" are learning so much from each other. I would hope that my "students" respected my skill level enough that they would continue to want to learn from me. The flip side of this is that if a student goes out and starts taking the learning in different ways, I'd like to create an environment where that can be freely analyzed and shared.

Did you get a chance to read the link I posted yet?

 

[Makalakumu]

Did you get a chance to read the link I posted yet?

Yeah, I did. I liked it. Just digesting it...

 

[JWLuiza]

Yeah, I did. I liked it. Just digesting it...

Yeah. Total paradigm shift. I'd be suprised if a defacto hierarchy didn't form. Look forward to your thoughts.

 

[silatman]

Hmm, my instructor claims his goal is to make us better than him, I assumed that was most instructor's goal. Lets face it, at some point on the learning curve it isn't about new material, its refining what you already have to be better and better. Why wouldn't I want a peer group to challenge each other to do just that?

My instructor credits us (the other black belts) with making him better, we push him, he pushes back. He is still our instructor, but it is more of a "first among equals" approach rather than an authoritarian rule. I don’t see the downside to this approach that you seem to be projecting.

Lamont

I agree that you do want your peer group to work together for the benefit of all but i still don't see how elevating a group of black belts to an equal footing with the instructor will have any benefits at all.
The instructor has had the same amount of training time as you have had in his system as he was the instructor when you started and is still the instructor now. Surely then his understanding of his system or the techniques that he teaches have also improved over that time.
Do you see what I'm trying to say, your knowledge base has increased but so has his (hopefully), therefore you will never be his equal even though you might do the techniques better or faster or what ever but you will never catch up to his knowledge whilst you still train together.
Like I said I hold my instructor in the highest regard as I'm sure that most people on this site does and I am extremely grateful that he chooses to teach me the combined knowledge of his former masters but I will never be happy to call myself his equal or to be treated as such because I am not.
My instructor does not have an ego and is actually grooming myself and another highly ranked student to take over his system when he gets to a point where he can no longer do what he would like to do but that still doesn't mean we are equals. It only shows me that the effort that we are putting in has turned into respect of me as a person and as a martial artist in his system.
This respect means more to me than some questionable equalness (is that even a word)

 

[Mark Lynn]

Okay, this is something that I've had to think about since I have students who are approaching chodan. I need to preface this by saying that I run a small independent Tang Soo Do school and that I have currently been revamping all of my curriculum in order to make it work better.

Are you currently revamping the curriculum as the students are getting ready for their test? Or while you have students moving through the ranks. Because this can be very unsettling to the students even though they might not tell you so.

I made the mistake of changing the curriculum on my students and paid dearly for it losing several of them in the process. (Although there were other factors involved as well, changing curriculums is a no no.) Also I went through this with an instructor who was making his program up as we went along, and another instructor who was making requirements up for the BB test and changing them to where I was real confused as to what I was going to be tested on. Point being that creating confusion for the students should be avoided.

With that being said, I've been contemplating an alternative structure for black belt ranking. My idea was that I'd like to create a structure that puts the onus of training on the student. I'd like for my bb students to take responsibility to pursue their own interests and I'd like to faccilitate a structure where bbs are collegues instead of teacher/students.?

I can kind of relate to this. In my karate instructors dojo we did just that, although we had one senior instructor, it was his dojo, at his house, he encouraged us all to study different arts and we freely exchanged techniques, concepts, from the different arts in his dojo with the other members. However at the time we all had between about 10-20 years in the arts and all adults all BBs. So there was a level of maturity there. I went off and studied primarily FMAs, Hock's Combative programs and some JKD, others studied (still do) Kenpo, others Kobudo etc. etc. So we had a diverse mix in there. But it took years to get that experience level and a central unifying instructor who encouraged us to do this.

I'm not exactly sure how this would look, so what I'm asking for is this...

How does your art structure its blackbelt curriculum? If you do something, why do you do it that way?

I'm currently working out the requirements for structure of the art I'm planning on teaching. Since I only have a few students and they all are beginners my BB ranks in the FMA method I teach will focus on more advanced applications of the art and different types of weapons for instance knife and espada y daga (stick and knife or long and short weapons), flexible weapons and the staff. Below BB ranks focus on learning double stick, single stick and empty hand concurrently for each level of training.

For the American TKD system I teach my BB ranks will have an increase in learning self defense against weapons.

My initial thoughts on this would be to do away with the whole stripe and master system. My thought is that this would do away with the hierarchical structure and put everyone on even footing. My thought is that it also would encourage everyone to learn from each other more and maybe take things into different directions. I don't know, these are just some initial thoughts.

Your thoughts?

I wouldn't do away with the belt ranks and or stripes system myself. There needs to be a leader in the group and people are paying to learn what that leader has learned. Remember that getting a BB isn't the end all, it is the begining of the journey. A shodan with 2-5 years of experience isn't the equal to a seasoned BB of 15-20 years.

In my instructors dojo we knew it was his dojo and it was by invite only. We didn't wear belts, or full uniforms until test time or formal classes. We fought and we knew who was senior by how long our instructor knew them or how long they were in the arts. And we all respected that. To this day we still do. It was truly a club in a sense like the fighting chicken article mentioned but that was rare, so rare I've never seen it duplicated or even close. We were (still are) like family and to this day 25+ years later they still meet on a regualr weekly basis to train and workout. The key was our instructor knew each of us, trained each of us, and without a doubt he was/is in control and we all respected him enough and what we had/have, that enjoyed being part of it.

At the same time in my instructors dojo it wasn't like a normal class. We fought and fought and fought. Over time he brought in other instructors who would work out with us and we did Kobudo and such but they were more formal classes. Many of us went to other schools on the weekends to have more formal classes which sometimes our instructor taught as well. It was different to say the least.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

The curriculum I follow uses a "credit" system. The onus is on the black belt student to continue their studies under the supervision of the instructor, but expects the student to put forth more effort into their own education.

Excerpt from our handbook (I hope this helps):

[FONT=&quot]Requirements for Promotion Past Shodan[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Once a student is promoted to Shodan, it is the equivalent of a High School diploma within the martial arts. It is after a student earns their black belt that their training in the martial arts is said to truly begin. Martial education after Shodan is similar to college courses in that more of the requirements for promotion are directly affected by the student’s studies outside of the dojo as well as the continued practice and improvement. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In addition to minimum time-in-rank requirements for promotion beyond Shodan, the following requirements also apply:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Minimum Credits Required for[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Nidan 215 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sandan 250 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yondan 300 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Godan 400 Credits[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Teaching Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Hours of Teaching [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Assistant Instructor 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Primary Instructor 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Outside Martial Art Training[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Another Style of Karate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Intermediate Rank (6th- 4th kyu) 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Advanced Rank (3rd-1st kyu)) 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Shodan or Higher 15 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Another Percussive Art (TKD, Kenpo, etc) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Intermediate Rank 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Advanced Rank 15 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Shodan or Higher 20 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A completely different Art (Kung Fu, Jujutsu, etc)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Intermediate Rank 20 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Advanced Rank 25 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Shodan or Higher 30 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tournament Involvement[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Competing [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One Division 1 Credit[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Judging[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One Division 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]CPR or First Aid Training[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Certification 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Instructor Certification 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Independent Research[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Book Report (From [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Reading[/FONT][FONT=&quot] List) 5-10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Research Paper (Approved Topic) 5 -15 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Article Publication (Black Belt, Inside Karate, etc) 25 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In-depth Bunkai Presentation 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Other Approved Project 5-25 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Each new approved Kata 15 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Seminar Participation[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In-School 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Out of School 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hosting a seminar 15 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Teaching at a seminar 25 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Weapon Training[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Demonstrate Weapon Proficiency[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Each New Weapon 10 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Each New Kata, Old Weapon 5 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Community Contribution[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Significant Service, Contributions, etc 5-50 Credits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Military Service 5 Credits/year (only since last promotion)[/FONT]

Stone_dragone

Thanks for sharing this. This was the first time I had seen this type of credit thing.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Why not do away with ranks after shodan? Once a student has shown their commitment and skill to that point, you know they are serious about training. Put the focus on just training, do away with most of the formalities of the lower rank classes.

I disagree here for several reasons.
1) How many people stop training after BB? Many times people get their BB and then they reached their goal and they stop training, now how serious is this?

2) I agree with focusing on training but that requires guidence, a plan, and goals to reach that plan.

3) Paying respect to one another, paying respect to your training hall (or area) transends rank. I mean if your are refering to paying respect to your instructor fellow students etc. etc. as a formality than I disagree that it should be left for only the lower ranks.

The blackbelt classes in my first karate dojo were like this, we didn't wear full uniforms most of the time, just gi pants and a t-shirt. Training was outside as often as possible. We focused on exploring new applications and developing new drills, in addition to practicing kata. We still had dan ranks, and a couple kata to learn at each one, so some of the black belt class was spent learning new material. There were no stripes or anything added to the belts after shodan. Dan ranks were awarded, but unless you were a part of the group you wouldn't be able to tell what rank anyone was. .

Been there done that as I've stated in a previous post on this thread. My karate instructors dojo was quite different. We didn't wear stripes on our belts and I still don't. However wearing stripes on belts aren't a bad thing either. Sure helps in lining students up.

If it were me, I'd do away with the ranks altogether, even in lower levels. but especially once there is a group of dedicated students ready to really begin training...the focus should be simply on training itself, not on achieving some illusionary goal of rank or prestige.

The problem here is that groups change constantly. A group of dedicated students can shifts with the changing of the economic tides, schooling, etc. etc. So when a new student comes into the group, ranks help that student fit into place. Ranks also let the student see that everyone started out where they are and they can get to the coveted BB or brown belt rank too if they try hard enough, also it helps them almost put a time frame to their training, "wow in 6 months I can be like him/her".

Rank isn't really illusionary. Generally it is something you worked for and sacrificed your time, effort and money (I'm speaking about training fees)for.

Mark

 

[Jin Gang]

1) How many people stop training after BB? Many times people get their BB and then they reached their goal and they stop training, now how serious is this?

In my opinion, if they reach that level and still want to quit afterwards, then why would I stop them? This phenomenon is partly caused by the belt ranking system itself, doing away with it would mean that there isn't some plateau people feel they have reached. There is just learning, and training. When you've learned something well enough, then start learning something new. If that's too boring for someone, then they probably aren't really into martial arts

At some point, the carrot and stick of colored belts needs to graduate into a genuine love of practice, a desire to learn and get better. If this love and desire is not there, then you'll only get so far. Once you reach "black belt", whatever that means, in my opinion you should be at the point where you are compeltely self-motivated. If you aren't really motivated, then why continue? Find something to do that you like.

2) I agree with focusing on training but that requires guidence, a plan, and goals to reach that plan.

Not having a belt ranking system doesn't mean that there aren't goals or a plan. There still will be a curriculum, a logical order in which material is presented. For some people, the goal might just be to learn as much material as they can. Eventually, the goal is not only to achieve mastery of the material and improve fighting skills, but to attain self-mastery as well. How do you know when you've got there?...you don't. we're always all in the process of getting there. This is what martial arts practice can be about. It's a never ending journey. There's no 10th dan at the top of life where you can say you've completely mastered everything.

A belt only represents the goal of learning and being able to demonstrate some skill. When you can perform the first kata and understand how to use the techniques in it, then you can learn the next kata. Why do you need a belt to represent that?

3) Paying respect to one another, paying respect to your training hall (or area) transends rank. I mean if your are refering to paying respect to your instructor fellow students etc. etc. as a formality than I disagree that it should be left for only the lower ranks.

Paying respect is not a formality. But there are different ways to pay repsect. We don't need to pretend that we're Japanese, or Chinese, or Korean, if we're not. We don't need to make a show of it, with special uniforms/costumes and patches and standing in a perfect line like a military organization.
I also disagree that respect is only for the lower ranks (in other words I agree with you), the most senior should display the most respect for everyone, and be the example for everyone.

Been there done that as I've stated in a previous post on this thread. My karate instructors dojo was quite different. We didn't wear stripes on our belts and I still don't. However wearing stripes on belts aren't a bad thing either. Sure helps in lining students up.

If someone's biggest concern is how to line up students, I think they need to reevaluate their priorities

The problem here is that groups change constantly. A group of dedicated students can shifts with the changing of the economic tides, schooling, etc. etc. So when a new student comes into the group, ranks help that student fit into place. Ranks also let the student see that everyone started out where they are and they can get to the coveted BB or brown belt rank too if they try hard enough, also it helps them almost put a time frame to their training, "wow in 6 months I can be like him/her".

As I see it, I don't want to put a time frame on training. I want to give the impression that it is a lifelong pursuit, and the goal is the training itself, not a belt or a grade. I don't want a new student to be coveting a belt. It's natural for a new student to look at the more experienced, and want to have what they have. Maybe they covet their techniques, or their skill...and that's fine. Belts are just arbitrary designators which have come to hold so much importance in the public perception of martial arts that I see them now as a distraction, a detractor, from focused training.
It would be best for the new student to covet the self discipline, the strength of character, and the work ethic of the advanced students. They don't need to wear anything special to see those things, and to know that is is good.


Rank isn't really illusionary. Generally it is something you worked for and sacrificed your time, effort and money (I'm speaking about training fees)for.

Maybe illusionary wasn't the right word...ranks are arbitrary. Outside of each particular school or organization, they are meaningless. You didn't work hard to get a piece of cloth, you worked hard and sacrficed time and effort to get better at martial arts. And you payed because sensei needs to have money to keep the school running, so he can keep teaching you things. The ranking system is just the way most martial arts schools obtain those fees and try to keep people there as long as possible.

This is the idealized view of things, obviously. If your concern is keeping fees coming in from a pool of rotating students, so that the school can stay open, then the belt rank system works just fine. But this has nothing to do with actual martial arts practice which is going on, it's a business model.
If you weren't trying to make money off of the school, then you don't need that belt rank thing. Maybe people keep it because it's been the Japanese tradition for the last eighty years or so, and they feel it's important to keep it "Japanese". As the model in the link shows (and any number of martial arts systems from other cultures and eras), having ranks isn't necessary to having organized martial arts practice.

 

[Makalakumu]

One of my big issues with dan rankings is that at some point they get rediculous. How many stripes do you need on your belt in order to earn respect now days? Or maybe respect could be earned by something else...perhaps skill?

My whole thought in revamping the dan system for my school would be to step outside the box and really take a look at what it is we are doing. I agree with the poster above, by shodan, which takes about five years in my dojang, you should have enough basis to be self motivated. I should be a good enough teacher that they could still feel like they could come to me and learn. If they didn't feel that way, then maybe they really should go somewhere else.

If any of my students are chasing belts or ranks as gups, I would hope that I could help them transcend this...

And, Boar Man, my preshodan material is pretty well solidified. I haven't been teaching long, so I don't have any dan students as of yet...