Being critizise and giving criticism

[terryl965]

Alot of folks on this board is real quick to critisive what other people do as far as a martial art. I mean we have the TKD haters, the Olympic TKD haters, the Karate haters, CMA and of course MMA. What I am trying to understand why? I mean if you own and operate a school you make concession on your clientel, you train those that want hardcore training versus those that want a good workout versus those that want to do tournaments.

Yet some of these same people get offended when they post something on here or youtube or anyplace for that matter and then get pissed off when some people say there stuff is weak or will not work or is for just the kids or the old people looking for a passtime. I am not trying to start a flame war with anyone here just trying to point out that when you make fun of people be prepared yourself for the same thing back.

I have trained probaly ten thousand peopel over the years some for sport, some for S.D. and some for just entertainment. I have learned how to tell what people really want and try to make sure that they get it. I may not be happy about it all the time and some of you know I ***** about it but the fact remains for my doors to stay open for those that want real training I need the common folks and there childern to pay the bills. If not for them than those few will be paying alot more in monthly dues than they do.

In closing I would like to add try and treat people with a little kindnes as you make fun of them and what they do. A friend as always said if you cannot handle the sport what makes you think you can handle the Art. I find this to be true in alot of ways.

 

[celtic_crippler]

My stuff is better than any other stuff. You're wasting your money with that other stuff, 'cause my stuff's better. That other stuff is just stuff. My stuff is super stuff. You need to buy my stuff 'cause it's my stuff.

...now...just sign this 12 month contract and you can start learning my stuff. :rtfm:

 

[terryl965]

My stuff is better than any other stuff. You're wasting your money with that other stuff, 'cause my stuff's better. That other stuff is just stuff. My stuff is super stuff. You need to buy my stuff 'cause it's my stuff.

...now...just sign this 12 month contract and you can start learning my stuff. :rtfm:

celtic I agree but what I was getting at is people tend to be judgemental about other things but God forbid someone say something about them. They just go and complain and how it is not right and so forth.

 

[harlan]

I think you're channeling George Carlin!

My stuff is better than any other stuff. You're wasting your money with that other stuff, 'cause my stuff's better. That other stuff is just stuff. My stuff is super stuff. You need to buy my stuff 'cause it's my stuff.

...now...just sign this 12 month contract and you can start learning my stuff. :rtfm:

Seems like a two part observation:

1. The perception that whatever one is studying is superiour, or even simply pointing out the shortcomings in another's training, has a lot to do with the validation of our own training. Anything beyond a healthy belief that what we are doing is right FOR US, and not insisting that it is right and best for everyone, is hubris.

2. Bad manners.

 

[celtic_crippler]

celtic I agree but what I was getting at is people tend to be judgemental about other things but God forbid someone say something about them. They just go and complain and how it is not right and so forth.

Ah! Dishing it out but not being able to take it. I got ya.

Probably related to self-esteem.

 

[Flying Crane]

Perspective and point of view are an interesting thing.

One thing I've noticed here on MT is how many people are quick to harp on the McDojos. When I read thru those discussions, I get the impression that everyone contributing must be really hardcore and rock solid and deeply knowledgeable in their training. They all deride those who lower their standards, and sell belts, and whatnot.

But then, once in a while I'll see a Youtube clip or something, posted by one of these very same people. And what I see in that clip is, in my opinion, utter crap. Those same people who complain about how many schools lower their standards to a pathetic level, seem to me have done the very same thing that they complain about. Those who present themselves here on MT as very knowledgeable and accomplished, no longer appear to me to be so.

Everybody believes they are doing high quality martial arts. I doubt anyone would keep doing something if they felt that it was low quality. But everyone's standards and expectations are different. I'd bet that anyone here could find an example of someone else here on MT, who they thought was doing crap. And likewise, I'd bet that everyone here (myself included) could be viewed in the same way by yet another MT member. Maybe even the same people would look at each other and think that the other is doing crap, and their own standards are higher.

I guess a lot of it depends on the reason people are training. What they want to get out of it will largely dictate how they train. And if they are getting what they want, then I guess they must be praticing at a high level of quality for that purpose. This would be true even if I or anyone else personally thought that what they were doing sucked.

 

[Ken Morgan]

There are a few others here that do iaido, and I can’t speak for them, but for me,

I am more than happy to have someone criticize my practice of iaido, if they have experience in iaido. I don’t even care if it’s the same school; there are just some things that you learn, that transcend schools. How else will I get better if I don’t accept correction?

Occasionally I will make unflattering comments about some Mcdojo people who claim to teach iaido, jodo, tanjo, kenjitsu or even kendo. I have over ten years of practice in, and when I see a video of what they do, I can tell if it’s made-up ryu or from a real school.

For the most part, I don’t really care, but when they teach kids using real swords, or use a practice sword to cut veggies off someone’s throat, that pisses me off. It’s dangerous. If they want to practice privately in the woods somewhere cutting pop bottles, go ahead, but do not diminish, or demean the arts by saying that you are a 10th degree black belt in kenjitsu, (@ 30 years old), when in fact you just made the **** up. It gives the rest of us a bad name.

 

[searcher]

I am with you Terry. I am so darn tired of people constantly ripping on those of us who are not doing things their way. And I think we know who those people are.


Whatever happened to us getting along and trying to make each other better. I may not train in a particular style or for a particular end, but I don't have a desire to bash on the ones that do. Now, if a person is a fraud, then they are a fraud. And they are not doing justice to themselves or those that they are deceiving. But just because you don't like a style, don't go ripping it or the people who do like it.


Leave other dogs alone or you might come up missing a foot.

 

[Nolerama]

It's just someone's ego getting in the way, and trying to convince them otherwise digresses into personal shots and web-jockey nit-picking. I think we've all been involved with something like that at one point or another on this board.

However, it takes a lot to accept one's shortcomings, especially in one's MA. So they pick little differences in their art, little concepts, and claim that other arts/styles don't do that, so that means they're better. But in the end, it's all the same thing. It just depends on what aspect you want to focus on. The same goes for any interest in life. Art, literature, music. Personal choice in activity/product is a universal freedom in Western culture. So, just like high school, we associate with those like us, and shun those deemed as outsiders.

It's human nature. Nothing to totally freak out about. It's okay.

Positive criticism is a great thing in the MA's. It should be a cornerstone of one's training; to be given/accept positive criticism, as well as have the personal authority to discuss technique in a positively critical/professional manner with one's gym/dojo/dojang friends.

I used to get mad when someone told me I was dropping my rear hand. But when I stopped getting hit in the face, I ceased to be angry (translate: let my ego get in the way) at the person who told me something obvious. Even if it was a new person in the gym.

 

[Steve]

Regarding criticism and disagreements go, this would be a very boring discussion forum if we all agreed on every subject.

 

[JKD143]

I think there are a few factors. First, the association or instructor will create a culture within the class/organization. This may be a culture of openness towards other styles, or a culture of competitiveness, even pretentiousness.That culture will become ingrained in many students.
Also, many styles are truly "combative styles" and thus many of the practitioners that gravitate that way are "combative" by personality. They will argue and fight for the reputation of their school and style. In addition, I think it is tough for many to chose an art, and then pour their heart and soul into it, blood sweat and tears, and not feel defensive of it. I think that is why many bash other styles or can't take criticism of their own; they have to justify their "life's work" so to speak.

I think there may be legitimate reasons too. Tell me what you think of this situation;

We used to offer classes at the local college here, and it was a lot of fun. After teaching there for a year or so, another fella with a black belt approached the school and asked if he could offer his style as a credit option. Once all the details were worked out, he and I started sharing the "multipurpose" room.

Didn't bother me at all. I always felt that what I had to offer was very strong, and if it wasn't a fit for someone, no big deal.

However, sharing the room with him, I observed his SD class, and specifically the things he was teaching the women. It made me angry. It is easy to say "study what you want" or "some styles aren't for everyone, but they all have something to offer" etc and there is certainly truth in that, but as most of us who have studied for years, trained various styles and have had to actually use it know, there are some absolute truths with real self defense. Some things will work, others will not. It was hard for me to watch young women learn from someone whose "certificates" said he should be a worthy instructor, and yet much of what they were learning could get them hurt or killed.

Where do you all feel the line is, between "bashing" someones art and saying "hey, what you're teaching/learning is giving you a false sense of security"?

 

[KELLYG]

My experience in going to another school outside my system was very unpleasant. I was invited to see a demonstration/seminar at a school. I went in prepared to empty my cup so to speak and learn something new to see something new. At this new school the Senior Master was condescending to me and my art directly and publicly. He was also condescending to the students that went to that school to train. The instructor was so impressed with his self that he did not attempt to see why I was there. Maybe I was there because I was bored with my current system and wanted to train in something else or maybe I was there to support a student at his training hall. I politely left at intermission. Even in that hostile environment I did learn several things. I would not under any circumstances train at that school. Always be respectful of fellow students and visitors. Never let ego drive your training. I guess my point is that no art is superior or inferior. If everyone would leave there ego at the door then everyone would learn a lot more and it will show directly in the performance of the school.

 

[mwd0818]

Regarding criticism and disagreements go, this would be a very boring discussion forum if we all agreed on every subject.

Disagreements and constructive arguments . . . sure . . . that's productive. Belittling and aimlessly defending attacks to character, style, etc. - that's not.

So, with that being said . . .


EVERYONE SUCKS. Now, go get on the mat and get better.

 

[jks9199]

Perspective and point of view are an interesting thing.

One thing I've noticed here on MT is how many people are quick to harp on the McDojos. When I read thru those discussions, I get the impression that everyone contributing must be really hardcore and rock solid and deeply knowledgeable in their training. They all deride those who lower their standards, and sell belts, and whatnot.

But then, once in a while I'll see a Youtube clip or something, posted by one of these very same people. And what I see in that clip is, in my opinion, utter crap. Those same people who complain about how many schools lower their standards to a pathetic level, seem to me have done the very same thing that they complain about. Those who present themselves here on MT as very knowledgeable and accomplished, no longer appear to me to be so.

Everybody believes they are doing high quality martial arts. I doubt anyone would keep doing something if they felt that it was low quality. But everyone's standards and expectations are different. I'd bet that anyone here could find an example of someone else here on MT, who they thought was doing crap. And likewise, I'd bet that everyone here (myself included) could be viewed in the same way by yet another MT member. Maybe even the same people would look at each other and think that the other is doing crap, and their own standards are higher.

I guess a lot of it depends on the reason people are training. What they want to get out of it will largely dictate how they train. And if they are getting what they want, then I guess they must be praticing at a high level of quality for that purpose. This would be true even if I or anyone else personally thought that what they were doing sucked.

I'm not a fan of the highly commercial martial arts business; I just don't like the things they have to do to stay successful in business. Since I don't teach commercially, I've put my money where my mouth is on that issue.

But I don't think I've ever said that they're automatically evil. So long as they're honest about what they're selling, and the customers are happy -- more power to them.

I do have a problem with the place that sells a watered down, very commercialized version of their martial art but tries to convince people it's the real thing. That's dishonest, and they're ripping folks off. These are often the places that push a multi-year contract on the parents of a 6 year old kid... Got issues with that, too. If you're running a kids' program with contracts -- fine. It's a business. But make sure the lengths are reasonable, and that there are a few ways to terminate the contract without going bankrupt.

I have a problem with the commercial places that have such sloppy business practices that they go out of business and leave students in the lurch. Note: It's one thing to simply go out of business, and do an orderly shutdown. But we keep hearing about places that border on fraud, where students show up one day, and the doors are locked, but they're still on the hook for payments to some billing service! That ain't right!

And I have a huge problem with the thinly disguised day care programs that use being "sports" or "martial arts" to sneak past the requirements for day care. Too many of those places are just plain dangerous to kids... You wanna provide day care -- do it legally and do it right. That's all I ask.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not a fan of the highly commercial martial arts business; I just don't like the things they have to do to stay successful in business. Since I don't teach commercially, I've put my money where my mouth is on that issue.

But I don't think I've ever said that they're automatically evil. So long as they're honest about what they're selling, and the customers are happy -- more power to them.

I do have a problem with the place that sells a watered down, very commercialized version of their martial art but tries to convince people it's the real thing. That's dishonest, and they're ripping folks off. These are often the places that push a multi-year contract on the parents of a 6 year old kid... Got issues with that, too. If you're running a kids' program with contracts -- fine. It's a business. But make sure the lengths are reasonable, and that there are a few ways to terminate the contract without going bankrupt.

I have a problem with the commercial places that have such sloppy business practices that they go out of business and leave students in the lurch. Note: It's one thing to simply go out of business, and do an orderly shutdown. But we keep hearing about places that border on fraud, where students show up one day, and the doors are locked, but they're still on the hook for payments to some billing service! That ain't right!

And I have a huge problem with the thinly disguised day care programs that use being "sports" or "martial arts" to sneak past the requirements for day care. Too many of those places are just plain dangerous to kids... You wanna provide day care -- do it legally and do it right. That's all I ask.

I agree with what you are saying here.

I've got one question tho: were these comments aimed at something specific that I said in my earlier post? If so, could you elaborate a bit? thx!

 

[ATC]

I get your points Terry. I made a response post in another thread that I think summed up your points.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1203467#post1203467

We all have our shot comming and steangth. I think it is all about validation and ego.

Everyone wants to be on top. But the top is really a point in which everyone may touch for a second or even two, but no one can stand there at all.

 

[jks9199]

I agree with what you are saying here.

I've got one question tho: were these comments aimed at something specific that I said in my earlier post? If so, could you elaborate a bit? thx!

Your second paragraph, primarily. I (for one) don't indiscriminately disdain Mcdojos -- just the ones that are effectively ripping off their customers.

 

[Steve]

Disagreements and constructive arguments . . . sure . . . that's productive. Belittling and aimlessly defending attacks to character, style, etc. - that's not.

So, with that being said . . .


EVERYONE SUCKS. Now, go get on the mat and get better.

In all seriousness, I don't see a lot of that on this board. Maybe I'm blithely ignorant and naive (I'd like to think not, but of course, that's the curse of naivetee), but I don't see a lot of belittling and defamation... outside of the political discussions, that is.

In my experience here, most times when someone is offended, it's as a result of a misunderstanding. Usually, it's when someone interprets a general statement as a personal attack, or in some other way projects their own situation onto a critical post.

 

[CoryKS]

How many martial artists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Four.
One to screw in the bulb.
One to tell you how much better they could do it
One to tell you you're only doing it for the money
One to tell you that's not how Grandmaster ______ did it.

 

[Steve]

How many martial artists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Four.
One to screw in the bulb.
One to tell you how much better they could do it
One to tell you you're only doing it for the money
One to tell you that's not how Grandmaster ______ did it.

Dude. You told that joke wrong. Maybe if you'd pressure tested the joke in front of a live audience, you'd have developed the timing necessary to deliver the joke effectively. If you don't joke with aliveness, you won't know whether it's funny or not until it's too late.