Cyriacus
Senior Master
And if he pins your Arms in the hug, then youll have no choice but to stomp his kneecaps
Bear Hugs
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oftheherd1
Senior Master
And if he pins your Arms in the hug, then youll have no choice but to stomp his kneecaps
If your arms are pinned, that does put you at more disadvantage. In Hapkido we practice a sudden drop while we expand the arms upward. Naturally this requires developing the upper arm/shoulder muscles. We then reach forward pinning the opponent's arms and applying a throw. From the front, the same, but with a left forward, then right step to allow a hip throw as we step back with the left leg again. Other techniques mentioned here should not be ignored. No technique can be expected to work every time with every opponent.
And yes, I still advocate knee kicks and strikes as effective. I understand what hongkongfooey is talking about straight on, but even that can be effective. We are MA after all. But I assure you displacing the kneecap a couple of inches, up, down, or sideways, is going to get you a release. No it's not a magical kill, but an effective technique to cause a release. That frees you do to something else to convince your opponent you really don't want to continue or do it again.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Lots of options. I like the MCMAP defense a lot. Seems to work on guys a lot bigger and stronger than me....as long as I can do it before they crush the life out of me.
That's a variation of an ancient Hapkido defense (we being one of the more ancient arts
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
In your case, Xue, the bear would simply be trying to defend all the poor trees!
:xtrmshock: POOR TREES!!!!!! :miffer:
Never....and I mean NEVER trust a tree :mst: :uhyeah:
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I particularly liked the leg bar at 48 seconds. If you can get that on an opponent, it will be effective. You just need to practice where you will fall.
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While I agree that a solid kick to the knee is effective, from a bearhug position, I'm having a hard time seeing how one would be able to a) pull this off and b) have it be remotely effective. I'm not really seeing alot of power being generated here, because of body position. Now, the stomp and rake....yes, I can see more power being generated in that.
Yup, definately some of the best bearhug defenses I've seen.
I miss this stuff. I gotta get back to the PSDTC.
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oftheherd1
Senior Master
To me, during a struggle to keep from being thrown around, the kneecap is more likely to be accessible than the instep. If I can rake the shin, I should be able to kick the kneecap. Perhaps is has to do with what one trains to do. And I am not saying a shin rake or instep kick can't be effective, just that I think attacks to the kneecap would be more effective. Regardless, one needs as many techniques as possible in their arsenal.
Yes, I see your point, but I'm talking about generating enough power. Lets look at this scenario: rear bearhug from behind. As it was said earlier, the person grabbing is probably going to be pushing you forward, pulling you back, trying to lift you or take you down to the ground. Both people are probably going to be very close to each other. To hit the knee, the leg/foot is going to have to be lifted as if you were going to do a back kick. Given the closeness of the bodies, will enough power be able to be generated for this kick to have any effect?
And yes, I agree, the more tools in the box, the better.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
I may be misunderstanding you, so feel free to tell me if your pretty much saying what im saying.Yes, I see your point, but I'm talking about generating enough power. Lets look at this scenario: rear bearhug from behind. As it was said earlier, the person grabbing is probably going to be pushing you forward, pulling you back, trying to lift you or take you down to the ground. Both people are probably going to be very close to each other. To hit the knee, the leg/foot is going to have to be lifted as if you were going to do a back kick. Given the closeness of the bodies, will enough power be able to be generated for this kick to have any effect?
And yes, I agree, the more tools in the box, the better.
Personally, when i say attacking the kneecap, i dont refer to kicking straight back into it. From practice, ive found that at times a bit to slow. But performing a shortened up downward stomp, preferably above the knees, requires minimal chambering. And the higher you are elevated, the more room you have to add in additional chambering, and therefore power. With the minimal chambering, it would take a couple to be effective. But keeping your legs moving is pertinant, since if your opponent tries to use his mass to take you face down to the ground, you might just be able to flail your legs forward, and force him to try and throw you to the side, or deliberately fall onto his back, or perform a Suplex. A Suplex can be answered in the same way, and to the side, you can exploit his rotation to try and grind his knee a bit. Of course, there is no certainty in any of this. But itd practical.
But that goes for any technique - Relying on performing one strike, and it fixing everything is foolhardy. If one strike DOES work, then good. Very good. But i like to presume that it wont. Hope for the best, expect the worst.
Ive also had success with trying to get my toes onto the ground, and attempting to throw myself backward. Again, tempting a Suplex, or a deliberate fall. But thats only twice. Control samples, at best.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
No one has given bad advice here as far as I can see. But I still think the knee is the quickest to attack. Cyriacus put it well above. You can use your opponent's grab against him. He holds you in place providing more chance to strike the knee. Any strike there will be likely to cause pain and damage. An attack from the side of the knee cap is most likely to do damage. But due to the way it moves, a solid strike is likely to cause it to move unnaturally.
But we all have our preferences in defenses. The main thing is that whatever we choose, we practice it until we can make it work, and that we have more than one defense in our arsenal.
When I was being taught Hapkido in Korea, I used to see students pick easy techniques for testing. Those were the ones they practiced over and over again, just for testing. Foolish in my opinion. If you are given 7 techniques as a defense, why not learn them all equally well? Same with bear hug defense. I have learned some additional techniques in this thread for which I am thankful. I will add them to my arsenal, and I encourage everyone to do the same. Don''t get locked in to just one thing.
But we all have our preferences in defenses. The main thing is that whatever we choose, we practice it until we can make it work, and that we have more than one defense in our arsenal.
When I was being taught Hapkido in Korea, I used to see students pick easy techniques for testing. Those were the ones they practiced over and over again, just for testing. Foolish in my opinion. If you are given 7 techniques as a defense, why not learn them all equally well? Same with bear hug defense. I have learned some additional techniques in this thread for which I am thankful. I will add them to my arsenal, and I encourage everyone to do the same. Don''t get locked in to just one thing.
We do the same defense in kenpo only we call it Squatting Sacrifice. I've also seen this defense in some BJJ styles. It can work, but you have to break the hold first. If the hold is still strong you either won't be able to bend down to grab the leg, or your opponent will collapse forward on you and force you to the ground with him on your back. Not a nice place to be.
In order to really understand how these defenses work, you need to practice them against dynamic attacks. Don't start there, start small and static. But build intensity over time. Then you will see which defenses work and how and what the counters to those defenses are. Knowing the counters to the defenses is as important as knowing the defenses. There are several strong counters to this particular defense.
-Rob
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ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Well said and I completely concur.
To answer both of these posts...the knee, IMHO, is a good target. But, I still feel that its best attacked from certain postitions, and I'm not seeing how a rear bearhug is one of those. To answer the question Cyriacus asked me: First, I never said that I or anyone else should rely on one particular strike. I also didnt suggest that hitting a particular area would get perfect results. IMHO, I'm not a big fan of 1 shot/1kill. Instead, I use a series of shots to get my results.
As for the kick to the knee....at the moment, I dont have any training partners available to me, so I had to use my wife.
She's 5'3, I'm 5'10. While I am taller, I disagree with the minimal chambering. If I'm reading what you're saying, correctly, you still need to chamber you leg higher than the other persons knee. That said, you're going to be doing more than minimal chambering. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to totally disable the guy with that knee shot, thus the reason I suggested the shin and instep. I'm looking for something, quick, simple, yet effective, to allow me to be able to follow up with other things, as I said above. Additionally, lifting your leg too high, isn't going to help with your balance. IMO, its easier to pull off a few shots to the instep, rakes to the shin, vs. trying to stomp the knee.The guy probably isn't going to be standing still, allowing you time to do anything fancy or complex. As its been said, you're going to be pulled back, pushed forward, lifted, etc. Again, I'm not against hitting the knee, but to get the most out of it, everyones position will come into play.
If you both have had luck doing this shot to the knee, in a live setting, meaning, the guy grabbing you isn't standing there like a statue, then thats fine. Thats a stirke that you should add into your toolbox.
For me, from that position, the knee probably wont be a target that I choose.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
To answer both of these posts...the knee, IMHO, is a good target. But, I still feel that its best attacked from certain postitions, and I'm not seeing how a rear bearhug is one of those. To answer the question Cyriacus asked me: First, I never said that I or anyone else should rely on one particular strike. I also didnt suggest that hitting a particular area would get perfect results. IMHO, I'm not a big fan of 1 shot/1kill. Instead, I use a series of shots to get my results.
As for the kick to the knee....at the moment, I dont have any training partners available to me, so I had to use my wife.
The guy probably isn't going to be standing still, allowing you time to do anything fancy or complex. As its been said, you're going to be pulled back, pushed forward, lifted, etc. Again, I'm not against hitting the knee, but to get the most out of it, everyones position will come into play.
If you both have had luck doing this shot to the knee, in a live setting, meaning, the guy grabbing you isn't standing there like a statue, then thats fine. Thats a stirke that you should add into your toolbox.
Recall that it isnt designed to take his knee out right away - And if you cant pick up to the knee, go for the shin, or the ankle. You arent trying to disable it, youre trying to wear it out.
If a Boxer has a high guard, do you know why his opponent (If well trained) will begin punching his Biceps? Punch the Biceps enough, and theyll become extremely sore, and hard to move.
Its the same logic. Your not disabling the knee, or shin, youre weakening it, so that when you can get a remotely chambered blow in, itll have the potential to be crippling. And losing your balance could be a good thing. If you begin to fall, your opponent will try to take you down. When he does, you can catch the fall with a sortof squat. Then if you have good leg muscles (Which any MA should
) you can stand him back up, and due to the angle, get that one good shot in. Stomping the Instep will work for a moment, but after one or two youd just make him angry.Theres nothing fancy or complex about what im suggesting, or id be suggesting that you do a frontflip! Just thing: With a frontflip, youd go right up and out of his hold! Yeah! Thatll totally work!
And when he lifts you, is he not putting your heel closer to the afore mentioned knee? And being pushed and pulled can give you linear power in an otherwise barely chambered shot.
It seems to me that we are saying EXACTLY the same things, only coming to different conclusions, and that is why i love this site.
I know that my Logic works, because ive tried it with several Partners of varying Height and Strength.
You know that your Logic works, because youve tried it with your Wife.
And i doubt youd need to actually break his leg (Whichever part of this leg your hitting, anyway) for him to be in pain. Or to let you go, in the hopes of doing something with more immediate results. Or trying to take you down.
Hence why you dont limit your options. Which is likely why neither of us are. Heh
Yet this post implies otherwise. And here, you said this, which implies that the knee is the only option.
Of course, I never said I couldn't lift my leg, I simply said that when I was doing this, were she to start moving, I'd be very off balance. And yes, through out this entire thread, I've suggested targetting the shin or instep. Like I've said, I use a series of shots to get me to my ultimate goal. 1 shot, 1 kill....sure, it could work and it has worked, but when it comes to saving my ***, I'm not willing to gamble like that.
Yup, this is nothing new, as this is worked regularly in the FMAs, which I also do.
We saw this as well, in the Kajukenbo Fight Quest show. Prof. Bono was working some gunting strikes off of punches, with Jimmy. Jimmy would punch, and Prof Bono would attack the bicep. Yes, I addressed this already.
And losing your balance could be a good thing. If you begin to fall, your opponent will try to take you down. When he does, you can catch the fall with a sortof squat. Then if you have good leg muscles (Which any MA should
Sure, that may work, just like any other number of things, may work. OTOH, it may not.
And hitting the knee wont do this? Punching the guy in the face, could piss him off. Not sure what your point is here? Again, the stomps, pinches, bites, spitting, whatever else you do, is simply to get a reaction.
And how much power is going to be generated while you're being lifted?
And when you're being pulled or pushed, yes, that could give you the power needed, but that is what you have to deal with first...the inital attack. The initial attack, is dealing with the effect of the grab, then the grab itself. 9 times out of 10, when I've seen people grab someone, the only thing that happens, is the person stands there, while the attacker, does a nice, relaxed grab. Sure, thats fine when first learning, but afterwards, if you're not training this live, well.....
Likewise, I think we're probably on the same page.
Personally, I loved debating and breaking things down, like this. The one drawback, is that many times, when reading, its hard to always understand what the other person is saying. We have to read, figure out and hope that we're on the same page, vs. a setting where all of these ideas could be trained, ie: a classroom, seminar, etc.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
My phrasing in previous posts only sounded that way - This is where typing can be tricky. From my perspective, i wasnt talking about other defences. I was talking about that particular defence, and therefore i was monotopically referring to it. I can see how that would come accross as singemindedly presenting itYet this post implies otherwise. And here, you said this, which implies that the knee is the only option.
Of course, I never said I couldn't lift my leg, I simply said that when I was doing this, were she to start moving, I'd be very off balance. And yes, through out this entire thread, I've suggested targetting the shin or instep. Like I've said, I use a series of shots to get me to my ultimate goal. 1 shot, 1 kill....sure, it could work and it has worked, but when it comes to saving my ***, I'm not willing to gamble like that.
Yup, this is nothing new, as this is worked regularly in the FMAs, which I also do.
Yes, I addressed this already.
Sure, that may work, just like any other number of things, may work. OTOH, it may not.
And hitting the knee wont do this? Punching the guy in the face, could piss him off. Not sure what your point is here? Again, the stomps, pinches, bites, spitting, whatever else you do, is simply to get a reaction.
And how much power is going to be generated while you're being lifted?
And when you're being pulled or pushed, yes, that could give you the power needed, but that is what you have to deal with first...the inital attack. The initial attack, is dealing with the effect of the grab, then the grab itself. 9 times out of 10, when I've seen people grab someone, the only thing that happens, is the person stands there, while the attacker, does a nice, relaxed grab. Sure, thats fine when first learning, but afterwards, if you're not training this live, well.....
Likewise, I think we're probably on the same page.
We are, in different wording, addressing the same idealogy:
Multiple strikes will probably be necessary;
Your Opponent could try and take you down, and he may or may not succeed;
People get angry when you hurt them;
Limiting yourself to one response is silly;
As for Power being generated whilst being lifted - I found it to be quite a lot. Its a bit hard to practice without having a muscular 6"3 guy actually lift you up, but it makes it easier to turn your hips out a bit.
And when we practice grabs of any kind, you usually arent told what the grab is going to be, and the other person has the right to take you down, submit you, or strike you if you do not react immediately.
Then of course, theres the possibility weve all forgotten. That the guy grabbing you is a moron, and he doesnt lock his grip properly, or he doesnt grab your arms. Or if he performs the grab from the side.
From the side, fiercely stomping the shins and instep become much, much for immediate. And if his grip is flawed, elbows to the ribs wont be fun, im sure.
Or he might be smart enough to kick the backs of your legs, or knee your hips.
The possibilites, they are endless!
Or of course, he could take you down to the ground. And if you have training in Ground Fighting, effectively cause this to be a self-condemning move.
On another note, i love debating MA. Especially with Practitioners of other Styles. The sheer expanse of perspective offered is intrigueing, and interesting. Ive learnt alot about other Styles i just wouldnt know from this site. I mean, i already studied other Arts before, but the idealogies of Practitioners is a curious thing.
And sometimes, you may change your own opinions, simply by being presented with an alternate perspective you find more agreeable.
For example, i never used to be able to Spar in a front facing stance. Until someone insisted i try it for defensive purposes.
Granted, that wasnt on this site, but the logic applies!
