Are women disadvantaged in striking arts/styles?

[Hanzou]

This video was very interesting to me. It shows women going for their black belt test in Taekwondo and having to spar against a male black belt.

What struck me more than anything else is how the man's size and strength advantage completely dominated the women's abilities. Certainly he was a high rank, but the fact that their were parts where he literally dropped his hands showcased just how little fear he had against his female classmates. So this leads me to propose this question;

Are women inherently disadvantaged in striking styles against their male peers?

 

[Tez3]

Are you sure he was dropping his hands because he was sure he had nothing to fear? A good many TKDists spar with hands down. You see it in the Olympics all the time.

Showing one man and one woman sparring in one style actually doesn't mean anything other than that one man and that woman spar like that.

 

[ballen0351]

Are you sure he was dropping his hands because he was sure he had nothing to fear? A good many TKDists spar with hands down. You see it in the Olympics all the time.

Showing one man and one woman sparring in one style actually doesn't mean anything other than that one man and that woman spar like that.

If it's on YouTube it's gospel to some around here

 

[Dinkydoo]

Not sure it has anything to do with gender. He has a good reach advantage, superior head movement and striking ability than the women he's fighting against. He might be showboating a bit but the same could be said if he was fighting a smaller, less skilled man. He looks like someone who has confidence in thier skill against these sparring partners and with it being a grading (not his) I think he's trying to encourage his opponents to attack him.

I dont do TKD but to me the punches and guards were quite sloppy from the female students in this one example of thier sparring. Nerves and fighting somone much better than yourself can have a bit of an impact too.

 

[hussaf]

Yes. I practiced karate for many years, but I've only been practicing judo, jujitsu, and aikido for the last 14 years (not karate, except the occasional combined martial art seminar). So my percussion skills are not very tuned up. There's a girl at our dojo that's on the US Karate Team, is sponsored by Mizuno (i think Mizuno), and has won several sparring gold medals at national and Pan Am competitions. I regularly control full speed sparing with her by over powering her. She generated a ton of power for being a petite girl, and her timing and speed is better than mine, but she still has a hard time controlling a non-point style match with me, even though she's clearly more skilled.

 

[Tez3]

Well no, not necessarily. Too many variables to actually say women are at a disadvantage. Are small men less able than tall men, are big men too slow, are tall women weaker etc etc etc.
You simply cannot determine that women are at a particular disadvantage based on gender.

 

[hussaf]

Well no, not necessarily. Too many variables to actually say women are at a disadvantage. Are small men less able than tall men, are big men too slow, are tall women weaker etc etc etc.
You simply cannot determine that women are at a particular disadvantage based on gender.

Except science. But if you are saying you can't always say a man will always have the advantage over a female...that's true, but it's do obvious I don't think it should be part of the discussion. But generally, yes, a less skilled man can get away with a lot more due to physiological differences.

 

[Hanzou]

Are you sure he was dropping his hands because he was sure he had nothing to fear? A good many TKDists spar with hands down. You see it in the Olympics all the time.

Showing one man and one woman sparring in one style actually doesn't mean anything other than that one man and that woman spar like that.

The reason I chose this video for the topic is because some commentators on YouTube felt that it was unfair that these women had to go against a man. I found that point of view very interesting, considering that the reason many women take martial arts is to defend themselves against a larger and stronger attacker.

 

[Mephisto]

Great topic! I've always looked at women relatively the same as men in the context of martial arts, being that they vary in size and strength. Some are bigger and stronger than me and some are smaller. While on the whole women may tend to be smaller, their are plenty of small men too. A bigger stronger, more athletic person will always have the advantage that's no reason not to train.

 

[drop bear]

Our coach just did a Kudo grading which includes full contact sparring. So our coach. Current nitro title holder. Ian bone pro fighter and title holder, Paul Cale general huge scary man and some guys who do Kudo.

The grading is not allways about winning the fight. Sometimes it is about showing heart. Smaller people in general are beat up a bit more.

So I suppose yes and no. Yes if you consider that if you are not the best fighter in the room you get bashed in sparring/grading.

No in that if you are not the best fighter in the room. You have better fighters to improve your game.

 

[clfsean]

Not really. A woman has the same striking weapons as I do. She has the same targets to choose from as I do with a few obvious differences for both to allow for reproductive organs. We share same structural weakpoints.

However the difference is I don't see that guy "fighting" a woman. She definitely shouldn't be "fighting" a man. That was a "sparring match" where the man wasn't scared of the woman & the woman was out to prove skill against a better skilled & physically larger opponent. That wasn't a fight. A fight could've been very different.

Nature is more than likely in favor of the male over the female in terms of the amount of damage that can be dealt & absorbed. However that being said, nothing is written in stone guaranteeing that & there are exceptions to every rule in most every circumstance.

Just my $.00005

 

[hussaf]

Our coach just did a Kudo grading which includes full contact sparring. So our coach. Current nitro title holder. Ian bone pro fighter and title holder, Paul Cale general huge scary man and some guys who do Kudo.

The grading is not allways about winning the fight. Sometimes it is about showing heart. Smaller people in general are beat up a bit more.

So I suppose yes and no. Yes if you consider that if you are not the best fighter in the room you get bashed in sparring/grading.

No in that if you are not the best fighter in the room. You have better fighters to improve your game.

that's kind of a different subject, though not an uninteresting one.

 

[drop bear]

that's kind of a different subject, though not an uninteresting one.

I am making a kind of different point. It is not uncommon to spar with the top gun of your club. And it generally sucks balls. I don't think it is necessarily a woman thing being identified here. But just she was outclassed.

Last night I am sparring a 16 year old kid boxer. I only go for I minute of a round that two other people share. Going in the advice to me is try to keep up.

 

[Steve]

Are some here asserting that men don't have an inherent physiological advantage over women? That just makes no sense to me, if so.

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[Tony Dismukes]

You've got a few different issues here.

In the video, strength wasn't much of an issue because they were doing friendly, controlled sparring. The black belt guy was just a lot more skilled and experienced than the women who were testing. (His reach did give him an advantage.) In a real fight, his size and strength would have made a big difference.

Size and strength (regardless of gender) do make a difference - but not just in the striking arts. You should know that they make a big difference in grappling as well.

Women, on average, are smaller than men. This is a disadvantage in fighting*. (It's also a disadvantage for small guys.)

All other factors being equal, women will typically have less upper body strength than men of equal size. This is also a disadvantage.

Therefore, if you are a woman wanting the ability to handle herself against a male attacker you need to not let all other factors be equal. You need some combination of superior technique, superior conditioning, superior fighting spirit, superior tactics, and/or superior weaponry.

I'm a pretty decent martial artist, but I would not want to get into a fight with either Ronda Rousey or Lucia Rijker, even though I'm much bigger than either one.

*(Fighting in this context includes both striking and grappling, but perhaps not so much the use of knives and firearms. Those tools can do a lot to equalize for discrepancies in size and strength.)

 

[drop bear]

Are some here asserting that men don't have an inherent physiological advantage over women? That just makes no sense to me, if so.

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Inherent can come apart a bit at the seams.
Nature vs nurture.

So nature. And bear in mind we are talking averages not individuals.

Men can pack more bulk muscle on than women so if we are talking out right body mass then generally Guys have it.

Functional strength is a bit more blurred in that women seem to manage bodyweight a bit closer to the men's average.

Nurture

Women have been pushed towards craptastic aerobics a lot longer and a lot harder than men. Functional muscle takes years to develop so are generally behind the 8 ball a bit when it comes to fighting and physicality.

Like asking Richard Simmons to jump in the ring.

 

[drop bear]

We look at something like cross fit and the lines of natural male physical superiority can be seriously tested.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XRNBw3w1K_8

 

[Hanzou]

Are some here asserting that men don't have an inherent physiological advantage over women? That just makes no sense to me, if so.

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Yeah, its pretty strange to hear some people arguing that biology isn't true. I would say that even smaller men have an edge on women of the same weight/height simply because men have more muscle mass by default. Despite the philosophies of many martial arts, size and strength does matter.

Tony makes some interesting points about grappling though. I'm an above average sized person (5'10, 210 lbs) with an athletic build due to playing sports my entire life. When I started Bjj, I ran through a lot of white belts simply because I had a strength and athleticism advantage, and could muscle my way through a lot of holds and pins. However, I hit a brick wall when I went up against advanced white belts and no stripe blue belts. This included women of those ranks who were able to use skill and technique to overcome my strength advantage.

Going against Purple and above was like a group of cats toying with a mouse. :lol:

I can't say I had the same experience with karate and TKD though. My experience is very similar to Hussaf's in that I could out-strike more advanced female (and smaller male) peers even at beginning rank.

Why? I think women simply have more weapons in grappling than striking.

BTW Drop Bear should be banned for posting pictures of Richard Simmons.

 

[Tez3]

So basically this is a stand up v grappling argument....again. Women can't fight stand up because men are too strong/big/just naturally better but in grappling women have more weapons so stand up yet again is found wanting..................... :uhoh:

 

[Cirdan]

Seems to me men can have a disadvantage against women because of overconfidence, ego (can`t let a gurl beat me!!) and relying on muscle...