Basic punching skill 101

Kung Fu Wang

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How will you train your basic punching skill?

If both you and your opponent has right side forward, when you throw a right jab, your opponent may

1. dodge your punch (this is a No-op), you then throw another jab.
2, block his leading right arm to his left (your right). When he does this, his face will be open for your left cross (or left hook).
3. block his leading right arm to his right (your left). When he does this since your leading right arm will jam your back left arm, you can't throw a left cross, but you can borrow his blocking force, change your right jab into a right hook.

1. jab, jab,
2. jab, cross (or hook),
3. jab, hook (with the same arm).

can take care all 3 situations.

Depending on how your opponent may block your 2nd punch, your 3rd punch will attack his new opening.

IMO, this is the easiest way to learn a punching skill by starting with just

1. jab,
2. cross,
3. hook.

The uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, ... can be added in later.

Your thought?
 
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Gerry Seymour

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I'm a big fan of keeping it simple early, and adding in the other stuff when you want to examine more options later. First puch my students learn is a rear straight (partly taught with traditional static punching drills). Second is a jab, as soon as they are able to put a little footwork with the rear straight. Hook comes as soon as they can put basic combos to footwork, though I don't expect to see them use it well anywhere near that early.
 

JowGaWolf

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How will you train your basic punching skill?

If both you and your opponent has right side forward, when you throw a right jab, your opponent may

1. dodge your punch (this is a No-op), you then throw another jab.
2, block his leading right arm to his left (your right). When he does this, his face will be open for your left cross (or left hook).
3. block his leading right arm to his right (your left). When he does this since your leading right arm will jam your back left arm, you can't throw a left cross, but you can borrow his blocking force, change your right jab into a right hook.

1. jab, jab,
2. jab, cross (or hook),
3. jab, hook (with the same arm).

can take care all 3 situations.

Depending on how your opponent may block your 2nd punch, your 3rd punch will attack his new opening.

IMO, this is the easiest way to learn a punching skill by starting with just

1. jab,
2. cross,
3. hook.

The uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, ... can be added in later.

Your thought?
Depends on the system. Jab is the most common punch and is often used to set up other punches. So I would definitely start with that. My second and third punch however or based on Jow Ga's basic punch, similar to Choy li fut and Hung Ga.

We use longer punches when are like longer versions of Hook, Uppercut, and Back Fist. There's no getting around this because these are the basic punches that you see me used, unfortunately many Jow Ga students do not use this and as a result their ability to use other Jow Ga techniques will be very limited.

I consider Jow Ga's long fist to be basic because, you can also shorten them as needed, from tight hook to long hook, it all feeds off the same body mechanics. So this would be the basics.

I don't fight in the stance that you described so I wouldn't train a cross punch until the other basics have been learned.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Depends on the system.
Does a striking art have to come from any particular MA system? Can we just come up a striking art from common sense (such as create an opening, attack the opening)?

Can we just create a punching art from jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, hay-maker, curve punch, ...? This is how the Sanda system is created any way.

Your thought?
 
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Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

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First puch my students learn is a rear straight (partly taught with traditional static punching drills). Second is a jab, ...
How can you use cross without using jab to set it up? Your leading hand is much closer to your opponent than your back hand is.
 

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Does a striking art have to come from any particular MA system? Can we just come up a striking art from common sense (such as create an opening, attack the opening)?

I would recommend you base it on a methodology that you find in a particular system. Otherwise you are considering developing a punching method from untrained intuition, which is much much less likely to be successful. I dont believe there is a functional common sense when we are talking about untrained intuition. It might be functional on a low level, but not beyond that. No point in reinventing the wheel when many training methodologies already exist.
Can we just create a punching art from jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, hay-maker, curve punch, ...? This is how the Sanda system is created any way.

Your thought?

For me personally, our punching practice is highly dependent on our foundation, and the punches we use dont exactly match what I suspect most people identify as those named punches. Ultimately we could make most any kind of technique work on our system, even if they might require a bit of reinterpretation. Im simply speaking from the example of my system. I guess It sounds to me like you are suggesting some kind of generic method, and I am convinced no such thing really exists, for the reasons I mention above.

So for me, no I wouldnt, but if a functional foundation exists, then perhaps yes, but Im not convinced that is the best approach.

For you in particular, why not use the longfist methods that you have, and then look at adapting that foundation to use those particular techniques, if that is what you are interested in? If you are looking for a way to develop an effective, stripped-down method, you can certainly eliminate the forms and just work from the foundation, and get creative to apply the techniques and get a lot of mileage from less material. If your foundation is strong, you ought to be able to do that. I will suggest though, that having trained the forms you might have an advantage in recognizing a broader vision of what is possible. That is great for you, but might not be so effective for your students and their students, if they never go through the process of training the forms. Maybe they dont need it, they can still be effective with a narrower vision of what is possible. But that wider vision of what is possible can be very useful.

Hell, I figure that five or six solid techniques, and an ability to use them creatively, will get you through about 98% of what is likely to come your way on the street. That wont hold true for competition where the fight is likely to last longer and competitors study their opponents, so more creativity and innovation is needed.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Does a striking art have to come from any particular MA system? Can we just come up a striking art from common sense (such as create an opening, attack the opening)?

Can we just create a punching art from jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, hay-maker, curve punch, ...? This is how the Sanda system is created any way.

Your thought?
Art and system are pretty much interchangeable terms.
 

Gerry Seymour

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How can you use cross without using jab to set it up? Your leading hand is much closer to your opponent than your back hand is.
Grab and punch is a rear straight punch. But the jab is learned pretty quickly afterward. I just find students learn the mechanics easier on a rear straight - if I start then with a jab, they tend to develop a really weak jab that gets cleaned up after they learn the rear straight. It probably has to do with the drills I use to teach the mechanics.

So they learn the rear straight first, then the jab, then the combo. Then I expect to see it in sparring. (Their first level of sparring they're not even allowed to punch - it's all defense and movement.)
 

JowGaWolf

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Does a striking art have to come from any particular MA system?
It doesn't have to come from one art but the Fight Theory (General Theory) or Fight Method (system) isn't going to be as easy as creating 3 basics that fit each. If you train a circular system then the hook, and cross are less relevant as a basic because they would fall under a more general punch. If I was going to teach a new made up system of mix fighting I would teach. The general Basic Categories would be

1. Footwork . (everyday training)

2. Linear strikes (hand strikes) - BASICS
  • Straight punches - Concepts and Mechanics
  • Angled Straight punches (vertical and downward) - Concepts and Mechanics
  • Straight punch high stance, mid stance Low stance - Concepts and Mechanics

2. Circular strikes (hand strikes) - BASICS
  • Circular punches vertical - Concepts and Mechanics
  • Circular punches horizontal - Concepts and Mechanics

3. Linear kicks - BASICS
4. Circular kicks. - BASICS

5. Grappling - Basics
  • Standing - Basics
  • Ground - Basics
  • Attack - Basics
  • Defense - Basics


I would start with the concepts and mechanics first. The first BASICS that every one should understand are the concepts and mechanics of a strike. I've seen many posts where this was lacking. Time and time we have seen how that lack of understanding degraded the training. Many of us read the post about how striking is just arm strength and that understanding lead to the theory that just lifting weights will give you stronger punching. So if you don't get people in the correct mindset for striking then they will make incorrect assumptions which will result in defective training.

You are looking at this from a Sanda Perspective. You would lave to look in a more general since starting from Long Fist strikes and then generally speaking reduce the length of the strike bit by bit. There are valid Long fist circular strikes such as long jabs and what people incorrectly refer to has haymakers, that are commonly used in boxing and MMA with great success. People may not see these as Long Fist, but they are. They are just not taught as long fist.

So if you were to make a general system of strikes then you'll have to get rid of statements like "This is how the Sanda system is created any way."
I guess is that you are not trying to create Sanda but a general system of striking. So in striking there is Long, short, vertical, horizontal, Level, Circular, Linear. Each will have their own set of Basics, which expand beyond 3 categories
 

JowGaWolf

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How can you use cross without using jab to set it up? Your leading hand is much closer to your opponent than your back hand is.
You can use it your lead hand to block and your rear hand to punch. This can be done as a 1 then 2 or as a 1 and 2 (simultaneously).
Feint jabs are another way to use a cross without setting up.
Slip a punch fire the cross.

There are many ways to use a cross punch without using a jab to set it up. Some systems set up the cross differently than others. If you are constrained into how a cross can be thrown, it's because you are looking at it from the perspective of one system, which is why I first stated that it depends on the system you are training. If you want to make a general system then you have to expand your perspective and think of How many ways a cross can effectively be used.
 

JowGaWolf

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It's like one should learn the throwing skill before learn the ground skill.
Grappling can be put into 2 general categories
  1. Standing
  2. Ground
Standing grappling can be learned without learning ground, because they are 2 different Theories and Methods of grappling.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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You can use it your lead hand to block and your rear hand to punch.
I don't like my training that have to depend on my opponent's punch. I like to attack first. The same as I don't like my ground skill have to depend on my opponent who takes me down first. I like to take down my opponent and then apply my ground skill.
 

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I don't like my training that have to depend on my opponent's punch. I like to attack first.
See it's this preference that will lead you into limits.

There's a benefit to both, but you may not always be fast enough to attack first. There's not guarantee your first attack won't be evaded and countered. If you only learn how to attack first then you'll never learn how to attack while your opponent is attacking. This is my fight theory for striking.

1. Attack first if the opportunity exists. If not then do# 2
2. Learn to attack while your opponent is attacking. (if your opponent is attacking then there's an opening that he cannot defend nor evade)
3. If #2 passes you by then counter. If this opportunity passes then do #4
4. Defend

There are a lot of things that can go wrong with Attack First especially if you are against someone who has good skill set of defense, evasion, and counter. Here's the reality of your attack first concept. Don't get me wrong. I rather attack first but I know there are people much faster than me, especially at my age and weight now. The attack first is not something that I will get a lot of opportunity to do. Especially if you are in a street fight where the attack may be relentless. Which is why #2 is so important to me and why it's the one thing you often see me do in sparring sessions.
 

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No point in reinventing the wheel when many training methodologies already exist.
I totally agree with this. If I were going to learn how to do circular punches then I don't want to waste time trying to develop that punch from scratch only to discover that there is a system that has already developed to the point of my discovery and beyond. Even now I try to gain a better understanding of something vs thinking that it doesn't work and trying to do something different.

That's what the Martial Art Tutor guy did with his bashing of TMA and TKD. as he got older and trained more, he began to learn that he wasted all of those years bashing people for the truth, which he only learned by training more and with people in other systems. He spent all of those years just to get to the beginning. I'm not saying Wang is like this, because I know he's not. I'm just saying that trying to develop things from scratch will lead down the same path.
 

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But do you also need a jab to set up a grab if you attack first?

It's like one should learn the throwing skill before learn the ground skill.
No, you don't necessarily need a jab to set up a grab. If the other guy is punching, movement can get inside. If the other guy is grabbing, then you're already in range. Students start from that standpoint, then learn how to set those things up themselves.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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No, you don't necessarily need a jab to set up a grab. If the other guy is punching,
Again, your technique will depend on your opponent's punch. I just don't like that dependency.

I prefer "I punch, you block, I grab" instead of "you punch, I grab". IMO, it's much easier to grab a blocking arm than to grab a punching arm.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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The jab is only the root of a tree.

1. A throws a jab.
2. B counters with a kick.
3. A catches A's kicking leg.
4. B shift weight on leading leg, and hammer fist on A's head.
5. A blocks B's hammer fist, and ...

Even just starting from a jab, the counter and re-counter can go as deep as 5 levels. A MA tree is then constructed. IMO, this is the easiest way to train MA.
 

JowGaWolf

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IMO, it's much easier to grab a blocking arm than to grab a punching arm.
This true. A stationary arm is easier to grab than a moving one.

There are some punches that are fairly easy to grab because the grab uses the arms. Say punches to the body have a higher success rate of grabbing than Jabs. For me personally, I wouldn't base any hand technique for grabbing a punch by using the hand. Every technique to grab a punch should start with using my forearm. The purpose of using the hand would be to keep the arm from returning to chamber.

I think I can successfully train enough to "grab a punch." My theory about grabbing punches is that it's not accurate to say "Grab a punch." It's more accurate to think of it as grabbing an extended arm. For example, if you punch, there are some things I must do before I can actually grab your arm. I must first disrupt your punch. Things like Jams, and what I call shaving, disrupts the punch. It slows the punch down, or prevents the punch from fully extending. If I do not disrupt your punch then I cannot not "grab your punch."

In addition to grabbing the punch with your hands. The some grabs do not start at the wrist, they start above your opponents wrist and ends at the wrist. The point between start and end is where the disruption takes place. If I were to grab your wrist after you punch. My thinking is more that I grab your arm and and my grip slides down towards your wrist and locks. Grabbing the arms slows the return to the chamber. It's easier to grab the parts closer to the elbow and shoulder then squeeze the grip to disrupt the return.

Punches to the body are easier to grab because you would use your arm wrap or grab. Boxers naturally do this from time to time without thinking. They do it to prevent that punch from being chambered and coming back at them. Refs usually break it up.:)
 

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