George Kohler
Green Belt
I'm sure that the source of Bartitsu's kata were from my post http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1338994&postcount=12
Banke Shinobinoden -- split from Bujinkan fraud
- Thread starter Bruno@MT
- Start date
I'm sure that the source of Bartitsu's kata were from my post http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1338994&postcount=12
ItĀ“s very possible. In my case, I got the information from Dr. Marco Palomar, who is other accepted student of my school.
Our SFr has different levels, and Kenpo is the third one: Syodandori (ura and omote), Chudandori (ura and omote), kenpo, Eri, Nakagokui. It was common in the past that some students learned only a part, so itĀ“s possible (I donĀ“t know) that, when they say Shinden Fudo Ryu Kenpo, they are talking about that part of the same mokuroku, or perhaps in other different line the whole school takes its name from this part of its mokuroku. Zoku gaeshi, kagamidori, etc etc are part of Syodandori.
There is other thing which is interesting, too. Before studying this school I studied Bujinkan for 15 years, more or less. I had only 4th dan, but enough to have studied Shinden Fudo Ryu Takamatsu no den. Katas are different, of course, from this other SFr, but I found some common points. In example, most japanese school start the "sitting technics" from seiza, but if you think about this two Shinden Fudo ryu schools, its very common to start from fudoza (Bujinkan) or Kiza (Banke). Kiza is quite similar to fudoza, but you donĀ“t sit on your left leg, but directly on the ground, which is little more uncomfortable. For the person who looks, itĀ“s difficult to see the difference.
Our SFr has different levels, and Kenpo is the third one: Syodandori (ura and omote), Chudandori (ura and omote), kenpo, Eri, Nakagokui. It was common in the past that some students learned only a part, so itĀ“s possible (I donĀ“t know) that, when they say Shinden Fudo Ryu Kenpo, they are talking about that part of the same mokuroku, or perhaps in other different line the whole school takes its name from this part of its mokuroku. Zoku gaeshi, kagamidori, etc etc are part of Syodandori.
There is other thing which is interesting, too. Before studying this school I studied Bujinkan for 15 years, more or less. I had only 4th dan, but enough to have studied Shinden Fudo Ryu Takamatsu no den. Katas are different, of course, from this other SFr, but I found some common points. In example, most japanese school start the "sitting technics" from seiza, but if you think about this two Shinden Fudo ryu schools, its very common to start from fudoza (Bujinkan) or Kiza (Banke). Kiza is quite similar to fudoza, but you donĀ“t sit on your left leg, but directly on the ground, which is little more uncomfortable. For the person who looks, itĀ“s difficult to see the difference.
Interesting anecdote. Seiza is of course a very common position as you know but there are many other sitting positions used in japanese martial arts from sitting on the knees, to one knee, to sitting on your buttocks or on your feet. All of those exist so it may just be a coincident.
Regards / Skuggvarg
Sure, youĀ“re right. I did not intend to suggest any kind of connection between this two SFr. In fact, I donĀ“t think itĀ“s even interesting to look for it. But, at the same time, different positions use to have a reason to be used. So, sometimes, similar positions of the body could suggest similar technical concepts or "positions of the mind". If we use the japanese word, kamae, itĀ“s easier -perhaps- to see what I mean.
The Bartitsu Society website (www.bartitsu.org) does not state that the names of the kata were the same. There is no record of the names of any of the kata/waza illustrated in Barton-Wright's circa 1900 articles, nor even any proof that those articles demonstrate Shinden Fudo Ryu kata or waza.
former bujikan student
White Belt
Hi this is my first post here on this forum, which I must say I am impressed by the knowledge and amount of respect being shown for each other.i will try to watch my questions and not be disrespectful .first let me just give you a brief history of my brief studies in martial arts I always wanted to study any form of martial arts growing up but my mother would not let me as she believed it would violate our conservative religious beliefs so as soon as I turned 18, I joined a Dojang for Tae Kwan Do only a couple of blocks from my house and stayed until I reached red belt recommended but I felt it was just not practical for self defense for me (I am not saying Tae Kwan Do isn't a self defense martial art) so after reading a news paper article about a "supposed ninjutsu instructor in town, well of course I had to go see for myself, this gentleman claimed to be sure student under Tanemura Sensi, of which I never saw any form of menkyo ,anyhow 3 years later and my wallet , checking and bank account much lighter I found out he was a complete fraud and I still have no idea what he was teaching .Then I read another news paper article showing a certified under Soke Hatsumi, 7th Dan teaching at a local university and anyone interested in joining our watching were welcome.well I consider that an open invitation so I met with the Instructor and his students at his outdoor shibu and I was instantly drawn to the different attitude of the students and instructor well that was back in 1991 and I stayed until 1998 until my chronic health would not allow me to train any longer I only mad it to 3rd kyu and at the time I thought Hatsumi Masaaki was the only legitimate recognized Soke until I ran upon this post about Soke Kawakami please understand I am not trying to stoke a fire hear and I am not Ryu blind but this totally shakes what little I thought I knew about the Ninjutsu world ! What are the differences and similarities to Bujikan as far as tai-jutsu .again apologies if I am offending anyone as when I was studying under the Bujikan system it was one of the best experiences in my life I made great sincere friends your patience in explaining would be greatly appreciated.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Welcome aboard!
Okay.
Yeah, I can understand that...
Okay, here's where it all gets a little confusing....
Firstly, let's look at exactly what we're discussing here, which is ninjutsu and ninjutsu-related lineages. Thing is, while some lineages might have some small amount or degree of physical combative techniques (such as Togakure Ryu), it's really not what ninjutsu actually is, and is more there for when the ninjutsu aspect has "failed" in some way. Kawakami Sensei is often quoted as saying that he teaches ninjutsu and bujutsu... indicating that they are separate studies entirely. And, when it all comes down to it, the schools of the Bujinkan support that idea as well. So what does that mean here? Well, taijutsu is a physical combative methodology... and is therefore bujutsu, not ninjutsu. In the Bujinkan, there's a degree of cross-over (with Togakure Ryu being a "ninjutsu" school, but including a small repertoire of bujutsu methods geared around the context of applying the ninjutsu methods, Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu being bujutsu schools linked with what we now call "ninja", although not ninjutsu schools themselves), but in the teachings of the Banke Shinobinoden, the ninjutsu lineage is completely separated from the bujutsu lineages.
When it comes to how the bujutsu methodologies of the Bujinkan and the Banke Shinobinoden differ, well, that's pretty much the same as how any two sets of physical techniques and concepts differ from each other. There will be some similarities, and a range of differences... some weaponry that is more "unique" to one group or the other... some preferences for certain tactics over others... and so on. That said, the listing of bujutsu systems taught by Kawakami have some... well... interesting names associated... including a Shinden Fudo Ryu (that seems to be somehow linked with a form taught by Seiko Fujita, SFR Kempo, although there is no connection to Fujita in Kawakami's stories of where his training comes from) and a Takenouchi Ryu that I can't find connected to the actual Takenouchi Ryu at all. I'm personally less-than sold on the claims.
Hope this has helped in some way.
former bujikan student
White Belt
Thank you very much, I understand the separation between the bujutsu and ninjutsu but 2 hen I am talking about and I guess I am only referring to the Bujikan system being 6 school of bujutsu and 3 of ninjutsu but they all still relied on such basics as ichi munji although different degrees of stances on being from a unarmed mountainous school and a shallow angle and deeper bend at hips and knees for armored school s all the 9 systems in Bujikan have some similarities so I guess what I am asking is any of the bujutsu between the two schools similar? Does Tawakam'si system use any similar techniques ie kihhon happo? Thank you for taking the time and having the patience to answer .Repectfully.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly what you're saying in that first sentence... the lack of punctuation makes it a bit hard to read. But, if I'm following you correctly, you're saying that the Bujinkan schools all rely on similar things, such as Ichimonji no Kamae, yeah? Honestly, I'd disagree with that pretty much out of hand. In essence, you can break the Bujinkan schools down a few ways, one of which is to look at relationships between the arts themselves... which gives us two primary groups (that I think of as the Hakuun grouping and the Amatsu grouping).
The Hakuun grouping is Togakure Ryu (Kain Doshi, one of Daisuke Togakure's teachers, was said to have taught him Hakuun Ryu), Gyokko Ryu (founded by Hakuunsai Tozawa of the Hakuun Ryu), Koto Ryu (founded by the 12th Soke of Gyokko Ryu), Gyokushin and Gikan Ryu (also from Gyokko Ryu), and Kumogakure (related to Togakure Ryu); and the Amatsu grouping is Kukishin Ryu (directly related to the Amatsu Tatara), Takagi Yoshin Ryu (taught alongside Kukishin), and Shinden Fudo Ryu (also associated... with a couple of different theories as to how...). As a result, each of the groupings have their own similarities... but it doesn't necessarily cross over from one grouping to the other. Ichimonji, for instance, is fairly central to the Hakuun grouping, but not the Amatsu ones... same with the Kihon Happo (coming from Gyokko Ryu). The postural concepts (deeper, lower, higher etc) are particular to the different Ryu... there are similarities between, say, Gyokko, Koto, and Togakure... but Shinden Fudo Ryu (Dakentaijutsu) has none, Kukishinden is quite different again, Takagi is yet again a different set of principles and ideas. Some are armoured systems, some aren't. Each have different distance concepts, different rhythms, different tactical applications, and so on.
When it comes to the systems taught by Kawakami, I haven't seen much, and what I've seen didn't really thrill me (then again, it's often been said that Kawakami's bujutsu is average at best, as that's not what he focuses on), so I haven't looked too much in depth at much of it... but, as there's no real connection to anything in the Bujinkan, I'd highly doubt that there'd be much beyond some superficial traits that are more about them both being Japanese systems shared between them. I wouldn't expect anything along the lines of a Kihon Happo (some basics, Kihon etc, sure... but the Kihon Happo is a specific ideal and concept to Gyokko Ryu, not anything to do with any other art).
former bujikan student
White Belt
Thank you again Mr.Parker ,is their any you tube videos that show any of Soke Kawakami's tai-jutsu? I am just curious to see what the differences are , and thank you for helping g set me straight I greatly miss training and wish I could continue but several joint replacements and and 24/7 insulin pump has ended what I loved doing and learning.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Most of what I've seen is weaponry work, there's a couple of examples on the first page of this thread.
Jameswhelan
Yellow Belt
Hi FBS,
The only person around here who can answer your question with any authority is Akatombo who has trained in both Ban-ke Shinobinoden and Bujinkan. It'd be best to ask him.
The only person around here who can answer your question with any authority is Akatombo who has trained in both Ban-ke Shinobinoden and Bujinkan. It'd be best to ask him.
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former bujikan student
White Belt
Thank you sharing and setting me straight I truly miss my training the camaraderie that comes with learning new waza's and hanka's it was the best period in my life.but several joint replacements and being attached to a medical device 24/7 put an abrupt end to my traing. I do however like to read up on new developments in the martial art world.and to me hearing of another Soke recognized by the Japanese government was quite a surprise and I really appreciate a knowledgeable person such as you Mr. Parker giving such detailed answers.
Repectfully
Repectfully
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Sure.... of course, this thread is from 3 years ago, which was the only time that Akatombo was posting (almost exclusively in this thread), and he hasn't been back since... so it might be not unexpected to have others answer in his absence. After all, discussion forum and all that, rather than definitive source of information where only those absolutely "authorized" can add anything.... I mean, no one, including Akatombo, have claimed any authority to speak on behalf of Kawakami or the Banke group....
Hmm. One little thing... no Soke of any martial art is "recognised by the Japanese government". There are sometimes awards given from various governmental bodies (ranging from local to national), there are some martial arts and artists that are designated as Living Treasures, but that's really not the same thing. There isn't any true governing body of martial arts, even in Japan, so there is no way for any group to be "recognised" above, beyond, or separate to any other. To that end, neither Kawakami nor Hatsumi are "recognised" by any governmental body.
Jameswhelan
Yellow Belt
In traditional Japanese martial arts we consider it impolite to speak on behalf of others about the ryuha they belong to. Or for that matter to presume to inform others about ryuha we are not involved in.
In doing so, or guessing, the risk is run of misinforming.
For example, even a cursory familiarity with Ban-ke Shinobinoden - just website reading - shows that (according to their traditions) Takenouchi ryu koroshi atemi no den comes from the Takeuchi and Kimura families of Omi. Shinden Fudo ryu was transmitted from Anegawa Katsuyoshi, not Fujita Seiko. This is public stuff. I can't imagine why someone would be compelled to speak about where this or that ryuha comes from when they haven't even made the basic efforts at understanding it.
Again, it is best to leave Akatombo the space to explain about his school - or not - as he finds appropriate, rather than have to have him mop up first.
In doing so, or guessing, the risk is run of misinforming.
For example, even a cursory familiarity with Ban-ke Shinobinoden - just website reading - shows that (according to their traditions) Takenouchi ryu koroshi atemi no den comes from the Takeuchi and Kimura families of Omi. Shinden Fudo ryu was transmitted from Anegawa Katsuyoshi, not Fujita Seiko. This is public stuff. I can't imagine why someone would be compelled to speak about where this or that ryuha comes from when they haven't even made the basic efforts at understanding it.
Again, it is best to leave Akatombo the space to explain about his school - or not - as he finds appropriate, rather than have to have him mop up first.
former bujikan student
White Belt
Please , please I am not trying to start any arguments I was just surprised to see another Soke in a different ninjutsu system other than Bujikan as it has been 9 very a decade since I was an practitioner and I apologize if I caused any waves I will not ask any more questions 8 appreciate what was shared with me very much .
I know its been 10 years, and I donĀ“t think anyone will read this, but IĀ“ll write it anyway. IĀ“m surprised by the amount of knowledge that people have about the ninjutsu. I just have a question. I have been doing ninjutsu koga ryu for about 15 years now, but everytime I see someone write the types of ninjutsu, the koga ryu is never said. Why is that?
Bujingodai
Black Belt
I'd question any Ninjutsu lineage. Koga has been the most overused pseudo version of Ninjutsu for the entire 30 years I have been training. Any time someone is an independent system. They are either ex Kan of some form or Koga Ryu that kind of occurred somewhere with nefarious lineage lines.
I come from an Ex Kan background. With some influences. I don't bother with lineage and just call what I can do/show/teach Taijutsu. Personally that is where I am at. As I def have issues with my one Sensei lineage, although skilled and the Bujinkan I am having more and more issues with. I left that more for the political climate and ego.
While Bruno is no longer in here I chat to him regularly, I'll let him know there's a new post.
