Back flat on ground=game over?

[Headbald1]

Is there a counter once you're already flat on your back and the other person is sitting on top of you and repeatedly punching you in the head? Of course one is always advised not to be in that position in the first place but is that a no way out situation once you're in that position?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf109]

The honest answer is you're in a pretty "unlikely to win" situation, but not quite a no-win situation. But there are methods for getting out of that. My preferred is covering the head, and reaching out to grab their shoulder/neck down to minimize their power, before attempting a traditional bridge & roll.

 

[Tony Dismukes107]

Being on the bottom of mount with punches coming down is a seriously disadvantageous position, but there are certainly escapes. If you watch enough MMA, you will see quite a few fights where the fighter on bottom escapes from that situation. If you train MMA or BJJ, you should have experience with sparring from that position and you’ll have first hand experience as to the relative difficulty vs different opponents.

That said, your chances of success are much higher if you complete the escape before your opponent lands repeated punches to the head. Your functional skill is much lower while you are suffering from a concussion.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf109]

Thats a good/important point. Pretty much the second you realize you're going to end in that position, and their going to throw punches, you should be moving to escape it. Different than other spots where it's fine to take your time and just sit in it while you figure out what you want.

 

[Wing Woo Gar44]

Is there a counter once you're already flat on your back and the other person is sitting on top of you and repeatedly punching you in the head? Of course one is always advised not to be in that position in the first place but is that a no way out situation once you're in that position?

Do some basic BJJ. These guys excel at fighting from bottom position.

 

[Tony Dismukes107]

If you're looking for specific techniques to escape from the bottom, here are your best bets:

1. You need to get your opponent's hands to the mat so that he doesn't give you a concussion while you're setting up the rest of your escape. Usually a strong bridge is your go-to tool to achieve that.
2. Unless your opponent's base is so bad that you manage an immediate escape off of your initial bridge, it's often a good idea to strongly hug around their back once their hands are down. This will limit their ability to posture back up and resume punching while you finish your escape.
3. The highest percentage escapes for the average person will be some variation of the trap and roll (to come up on top) or knee-elbow escape (to recover guard). (Given the choice, I'd prefer to come up on top with the trap and roll, but your opponent's position and movement determine which is available.) There are other escapes, such as the kipping escape or the Derrick Lewis style "just stand up", but those are more dependent on physical attributes that the average person won't have.

 

[Wing Woo Gar44]

If you're looking for specific techniques to escape from the bottom, here are your best bets:

1. You need to get your opponent's hands to the mat so that he doesn't give you a concussion while you're setting up the rest of your escape. Usually a strong bridge is your go-to tool to achieve that.
2. Unless your opponent's base is so bad that you manage an immediate escape off of your initial bridge, it's often a good idea to strongly hug around their back once their hands are down. This will limit their ability to posture back up and resume punching while you finish your escape.
3. The highest percentage escapes for the average person will be some variation of the trap and roll (to come up on top) or knee-elbow escape (to recover guard). (Given the choice, I'd prefer to come up on top with the trap and roll, but your opponent's position and movement determine which is available.) There are other escapes, such as the kipping escape or the Derrick Lewis style "just stand up", but those are more dependent on physical attributes that the average person won't have.

Thanks for that!

 

[Tony Dismukes107]

Do some basic BJJ. These guys excel at fighting from bottom position.

Unfortunately, not all BJJ schools train against strikes anymore.

The fundamental principles of the escapes work the same with and without punches. But there are additional details you have to take into consideration once the punches start flying. It's not a huge difference, but I'd recommend any BJJ student spend at least 10% of their training time with the strikes included if they want to be able to fully apply their skills in a real fight.

 

[Wing Woo Gar44]

Unfortunately, not all BJJ schools train against strikes anymore.

The fundamental principles of the escapes work the same with and without punches. But there are additional details you have to take into consideration once the punches start flying. It's not a huge difference, but I'd recommend any BJJ student spend at least 10% of their training time with the strikes included if they want to be able to fully apply their skills in a real fight.

I have heard the local BJJ guy saying you lose a belt rank of skill for each fully landed head punch. I guess that depends on a lot of factors but I think the idea is generally a sound one. I have spent quite a lot of time practicing take down defenses and get ups because I’m not a skilled wrestler. As I have stated previously, my ground game is weak compared to my stand up.

 

[Tony Dismukes107]

I have heard the local BJJ guy saying you lose a belt rank of skill for each fully landed head punch.

That's a quote from Carlson Gracie Sr.: "Punch a black belt in the face, now he's a brown belt. Punch a brown belt in the face, now he's a purple belt ..."

As you say, there's more to it than that. For an impressive counter-argument, look at the first fight between Chael Sonnen and Anderson Silva. Sonnen beat the crap out of Silva for over 20 minutes before Silva finished him with a triangle choke in the 5th round.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf109]

Unfortunately, not all BJJ schools train against strikes anymore.

The fundamental principles of the escapes work the same with and without punches. But there are additional details you have to take into consideration once the punches start flying. It's not a huge difference, but I'd recommend any BJJ student spend at least 10% of their training time with the strikes included if they want to be able to fully apply their skills in a real fight.

I might be biased, but I think the opposite is as, if not more, true. Any school that teaches a striking art should spend at least 10% of their time training against grappling. Possibly more to account for clinching, takedown defense, and getting back to your feet. Ideally from someone who knows how to grapple.

Otherwise you risk ending up in a situation where someone grabs you in a fight and all of a sudden your years of training are useless. AKA: The early ufc matches (which i strongly believe would have gone differently if some of the competitors knew more about grappling).

 

[Tony Dismukes107]

I might be biased, but I think the opposite is as, if not more, true. Any school that teaches a striking art should spend at least 10% of their time training against grappling. Possibly more to account for clinching, takedown defense, and getting back to your feet. Ideally from someone who knows how to grapple.

Otherwise you risk ending up in a situation where someone grabs you in a fight and all of a sudden your years of training are useless. AKA: The early ufc matches (which i strongly believe would have gone differently if some of the competitors knew more about grappling).

Absolutely.

There have been a lot of arguments about the early UFCs. Some people claiming they proved that BJJ was superior to other arts, others claiming that the Gracies unfairly rigged the rules in their favor. IMO, the answer is simpler. The Gracies had years of experience in using their system to fight against representatives of other arts. But their opponents in those early days did not have equivalent experience in fighting against BJJ.

 

[drop bear109]

Just mount?

I suggest the knee push escape because I think it is the highest percentage.

And at its most basic for self defence. Cover your head. Buck your hips up, knee them in the bum. Turn on your side while still covering and try to touch your elbows to their knee.

Then escape.

You are relying on them not being able to hold you down while hitting you and not being able to hit you while holding you down.

I don't fart around with trying to hold them down from there. I just mash that escape. (That back hug Tony mentioned.)


So like this but just trying to be more compact.

 

[Wing Woo Gar44]

That's a quote from Carlson Gracie Sr.: "Punch a black belt in the face, now he's a brown belt. Punch a brown belt in the face, now he's a purple belt ..."

As you say, there's more to it than that. For an impressive counter-argument, look at the first fight between Chael Sonnen and Anderson Silva. Sonnen beat the crap out of Silva for over 20 minutes before Silva finished him with a triangle choke in the 5th round.

I did not know that but it is a Carlson Gracie school!

 

[drop bear109]

Ok. So I was having a think as to why I don’t like focusing on covering or stalling from under mount. Even though it is the most intuitive response.

I think we get our concepts of covering from stand up striking where we will cover, weather 3 or 4 punches and they will reset or we wear punches. We punch them back and they reset.

But they tend not to from mount. You can't punch them from the ground and they don't stop hitting you.

So nothing gets better by covering or stalling. And that time spent possibly makes you more fatigued or allows them to increase their position. Especially them crawling up your body while your elbows are high.

But because of the preconceptions that covering defends punches. We all kind of want to do it.

I am also probably an outlier with this stance a bit

 

[Darren]

Is there a counter once you're already flat on your back and the other person is sitting on top of you and repeatedly punching you in the head? Of course one is always advised not to be in that position in the first place but is that a no way out situation once you're in that position?

couple of thing come to mind, buck up to get them off you,depending on where your at, school,street. reach up and do a eye slice(Street) grap there shirts and yank downward having there face,head say hello to the cement, use your tummy muscles to rise up and push the guy off of you then use your legs according, and y all means stretch of course your classmates will help out in that area. of course im not a expert or anything just nearly rubbed my back out of existence just getting my blue belt in BJJ, heck i just signed up cause it looked fun and i wanted to know something about and i sure in heck was not getting any sparring done in my stand up, i did not mean to get where i am today! but i LOVE IT! and best of all i have a future in the martial arts i think? i hope, i will! found out the best definition of crazy is putting on that BJJ Gi wrapping that belt around your waist and getting on the mat, them come back one more time and your crazy! works for me. LMAO!!

 

[skribs108]

I might be biased, but I think the opposite is as, if not more, true. Any school that teaches a striking art should spend at least 10% of their time training against grappling. Possibly more to account for clinching, takedown defense, and getting back to your feet. Ideally from someone who knows how to grapple.

Otherwise you risk ending up in a situation where someone grabs you in a fight and all of a sudden your years of training are useless. AKA: The early ufc matches (which i strongly believe would have gone differently if some of the competitors knew more about grappling).

I think any training is going to put you over the edge 99% of the time if someone grabs you in a fight.

 

[Wing Woo Gar44]

Ok. So I was having a think as to why I don’t like focusing on covering or stalling from under mount. Even though it is the most intuitive response.

I think we get our concepts of covering from stand up striking where we will cover, weather 3 or 4 punches and they will reset or we wear punches. We punch them back and they reset.

But they tend not to from mount. You can't punch them from the ground and they don't stop hitting you.

So nothing gets better by covering or stalling. And that time spent possibly makes you more fatigued or allows them to increase their position. Especially them crawling up your body while your elbows are high.

But because of the preconceptions that covering defends punches. We all kind of want to do it.

I am also probably an outlier with this stance a bit

I think this makes sense. I am not a grappler, but even in stand up I want to keep moving rather than cover up if possible. People can build momentum when the opponent covers up for too long and find an opening that wasn’t there before.

 

[windwalker099109]

Not a grappler myself. But in our group in Beijing, we had people who grappled, along with visitors from grappling backgrounds. They all wanted to try their methods on our teacher to see how he would handle them.


The common problem they ran into was that they couldn’t find anything to grab. What some now call “Invisible Jiu-Jitsu” explores similar concepts, some ideas might be useful to some practitioners.

 

[Wing Woo Gar44]

Not a grappler myself. But in our group in Beijing, we had people who grappled, along with visitors from grappling backgrounds. They all wanted to try their methods on our teacher to see how he would handle them.


The common problem they ran into was that they couldn’t find anything to grab. What some now call “Invisible Jiu-Jitsu” explores similar concepts, some ideas might be useful to some practitioners.

Rickson is one of a few martial artists that truly inspired me. I first heard of him in the early 1990s in L.A. I believe he is one of the true greats.