Athletics in Martial-Arts

[arnuld]

This is one of my most fundamental ideas about training in Martial-Arts: When you hit an opponent, it must make the difference in the existence of his life as a human being of flesh and bones and to do that your hits must carry lot of strength, along with your stamina to fight longer .

I am not talking about sports here. I think every part of body must be trained and perfected no matter what the source is. Being slim and strong, being obese, being devoid of stamina, being a man with an average strength are lifestyles. Except in exceptional circumstances, I think choosing a lifestyle is a person's choice and most choose being an average rather than one who continuously and consistently trains his body. I believe in being athletic, that people who are highly active in athletics lifestyle are the ones who have greater chances of being a Martial-Artist (If they go for it). Along with doing all the training drills, punching and kicking and sparring and practicing your favorite styles, I definitely believe one needs to invest some time everyday in doing Pommel Horse and Rings Gymnastics and Squash.

What is your opinion on it ?

 

[Carol]

Considering that two of your activities mentioned are geared specifically towards men, I'd have to say I disagree quite strongly.

 

[ATC]

...I definitely believe one needs to invest some time everyday in doing Pommel Horse and Rings Gymnastics and Squash.

What is your opinion on it ?

I agree that one needs to be in the best shape as possible to be at ones top potential, however I don't think the activities you mentioned are the only or end all of exercise. They are good and would most definitely condition the body, but there are plenty of other exercise that would do the same.

When I was a boy I grew up in the hills of Pennsylvanian and simply running and playing hard in the woods did all what was needed. We climbed trees, and jumped out of them all day long. We hiked hillsides and rolled and tumbled all day. We played it and freeze tag. We in essence were monkeys if you will and were fit as fit could be.

I remember doing the Presidential Physical Fitness test in the 6th to 12th grades and 35 - 50 push up were the norm. 10 - 20 pull-ups were also the norm. Sit-ups between 70-90 in 60 seconds was average. I was able to stand broad jump 9'8" in the 10th grade and 10' by my senior year. But now kids don't play. They don't go outside let alone climb a tree. Kids and people in general are not as fit as people just a few years ago.

I see so many kids that can't do simple things anymore. They run funny, the jumps funny, and every little bump hurts to the point of crying. The human body was made to move and move a lot.

Simple outdoors playing will get you as fit as any of those activities you mentioned. We use to do many of them on our own just by playing. It was nothing to flip over a lightning stuck tree just like a pommel horse. We also use to hang a rope from a trea and swing from it all day. This made your grip, arms and back strong as any set of rings.

Today we try to make up to many mechanical devices to do what nature already gave us and is better. Yes I believe in being fit but you can simple go outside and play but not just play, you have to play hard.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you train a martial art, any martial art, like it is suppose to be trained you will be healthy, active, in shape and a martial artist no Pommel Horse, Rings, Gymnastics or Squash required.

Example my Sanda Sifu; if you want to train Sanda correctly you are throwing (this is as a beginner, he does many more) 300 to 500 kicks per side per day and doing 300 to 500 palm strikes on a tree per day and there are other strikes and drills that need to be trained as well and I have not got to the push ups, sit-ups and chin-ups he wants done. You have little time for anything else if you train like he would like you to train.

Taiji; the long form minimum of 3 times a day, and there are many other forms both empty hand and weapon, Qigong and Tuishou. Nothing against sit-ups or push ups or Chin ups, my Sifu does leg raises and holds it for 15 minutes a pop. And again if you train it like you are suppose to the minimum amount of time per day you should be training taiji (per my Sifu who has been at it for over 50 years) is 2 hours a day.... emphasis on the word "minimum"

Xingyiquan has base for its training of Santi shi (and this is only one of the standing forms for training) and to be considered a beginner in Xingyiquan you are standing in Santi 20 minutes per side per day. However that is only to be considered a beginner, 30 minutes to an hour per side is better and we are still not talking the other standing forms or the various 5 element forms or the 12 animal forms or the weapons forms or tuishou or sparing.

So now through in sleep, a job and family you again have not that much time left in a day. But if you train them like they are meant to be trained you will be healthy and a good fighter again no Pommel Horse, Rings, Gymnastics or Squash required.

However if you have time for other activities in most cases there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. I wouldn’t suggest combining something like weightlifting and an Internal Chinese Martial Art, if you are an IMA beginner. But even that combination if fine after you have an understanding of IMA, if you have time that is

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is one of my most fundamental ideas about training in Martial-Arts: When you hit an opponent, it must make the difference in the existence of his life as a human being of flesh and bones and to do that your hits must carry lot of strength, along with your stamina to fight longer .

I am not talking about sports here. I think every part of body must be trained and perfected no matter what the source is. Being slim and strong, being obese, being devoid of stamina, being a man with an average strength are lifestyles. Except in exceptional circumstances, I think choosing a lifestyle is a person's choice and most choose being an average rather than one who continuously and consistently trains his body. I believe in being athletic, that people who are highly active in athletics lifestyle are the ones who have greater chances of being a Martial-Artist (If they go for it). Along with doing all the training drills, punching and kicking and sparring and practicing your favorite styles, I definitely believe one needs to invest some time everyday in doing Pommel Horse and Rings Gymnastics and Squash.

What is your opinion on it ?

My opinion is that there are exercises that do not require specialized equipment or gym memberships that will strengthen the body.

While I am sure that those are all great exercises, I do not have access to a pommel horse or rings and have never done squash. I find pushups, sit ups, pull ups, and other calisthenic exercises to be quite good for keeping me in shape and strong. I also cycle and jump rope and strike the makiwara board.

Of course going to class four to six days a week does not hurt either.

Daniel

 

[still learning]

This is one of my most fundamental ideas about training in Martial-Arts: When you hit an opponent, it must make the difference in the existence of his life as a human being of flesh and bones and to do that your hits must carry lot of strength, along with your stamina to fight longer .

I am not talking about sports here. I think every part of body must be trained and perfected no matter what the source is. Being slim and strong, being obese, being devoid of stamina, being a man with an average strength are lifestyles. Except in exceptional circumstances, I think choosing a lifestyle is a person's choice and most choose being an average rather than one who continuously and consistently trains his body. I believe in being athletic, that people who are highly active in athletics lifestyle are the ones who have greater chances of being a Martial-Artist (If they go for it). Along with doing all the training drills, punching and kicking and sparring and practicing your favorite styles, I definitely believe one needs to invest some time everyday in doing Pommel Horse and Rings Gymnastics and Squash.

What is your opinion on it ?

Hello, You can be the strongest and fitness guy in the world.....ONE poke into both eyes? and?..doen't take lots of muscles...just two fingers...to have the advantages..

NO one can avoid....unseen strike...the "false crack" from behind....No matter your strengths...especially with a baseball bat..



Remember more confrontions ends with the proper verbal words and correct body languages, everyday...than actual physcial fighting...

Yes..It is one of the more important part in being a martial artist...dancer..football player and a Yankee/fillies fan!

Aloha, Eat to live...NOT live to it! ...more push-ups "Please"

 

[arnuld]

Considering that two of your activities mentioned are geared specifically towards men, I'd have to say I disagree quite strongly.

They don't have to be for men, a woman can do that if she really wants to (unless you are interested in competing sports officially). Its is really stupid to believe that if from last 100 years only a man is doing something (officially) then a woman should not do it unofficially. I really think these exercise are fine for women to do (main taa ehi sochda haa).

 

[arnuld]

You can be the strongest and fitness guy in the world.....ONE poke into both eyes? and?..doen't take lots of muscles...just two fingers...to have the advantages..

Eh.. Eight tools of your body (Street Safe - 1, Paul Vunak)

Remember more confrontions ends with the proper verbal words and correct body languages, everyday...than actual physcial fighting...

I never had any fight. I used the social skills I learned to avoid fights and keep the both parties happy. You need to prepare for times when meet some guys who are really a**holes, especially when they are drunk only a little.

 

[still learning]

They don't have to be for men, a woman can do that if she really wants to (unless you are interested in competing sports officially). Its is really stupid to believe that if from last 100 years only a man is doing something (officially) then a woman should not do it unofficially. I really think these exercise are fine for women to do (main taa ehi sochda haa).

Hello, One thing for sure....Women live longer than men ...in the last 100 years...

Older women will rule for sure!

Aloha, ...yes Mom ....throwing out the trash now..did the laundry yesterday...the dishes too?

 

[Nolerama]

This is one of my most fundamental ideas about training in Martial-Arts: When you hit an opponent, it must make the difference in the existence of his life as a human being of flesh and bones and to do that your hits must carry lot of strength, along with your stamina to fight longer ....

I think I get where you're coming from. Athleticism should be an integral part of MA training.

IAlong with doing all the training drills, punching and kicking and sparring and practicing your favorite styles, I definitely believe one needs to invest some time everyday in doing Pommel Horse and Rings Gymnastics and Squash.

What is your opinion on it ?

I'm more of a racquetball guy.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Still_learning, I think what he's trying to say isn't that self-defense depends on athleticism, but that to be a true martial artist (not a martial <i>hobbyist</i>), one must be athletic. After all, if you're going to devote your life to something, you should do it right, and the martial arts are a physical activity, so like any other physical activity, you want to be at the top of your game at all time. For example, the man who doesn't play baseball professionally but does play on a team with his friends works out and makes sure he's in shape by lifting weights and running, not just by playing baseball all day every day.

 

[ATC]

Still_learning, I think what he's trying to say isn't that self-defense depends on athleticism, but that to be a true martial artist (not a martial <i>hobbyist</i>), one must be athletic. After all, if you're going to devote your life to something, you should do it right, and the martial arts are a physical activity, so like any other physical activity, you want to be at the top of your game at all time. For example, the man who doesn't play baseball professionally but does play on a team with his friends works out and makes sure he's in shape by lifting weights and running, not just by playing baseball all day every day.

Bad analogy, as not even pro baseball players only play baseball to stay and or get in shape.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You raise some interesting points here, Shinobi.

I want to preface my post by saying that I think that your post addresses the very heart of the matter, though I must respectfully disagree to an extent with you.

Still_learning, I think what he's trying to say isn't that self-defense depends on athleticism,

Actually, that is almost the entirety of his post. The activities that he suggests require such a degree of athleticism to do, especially rings, that there can really be no other conclusion.

but that to be a true martial artist (not a martial <i>hobbyist</i>), one must be athletic.

And what is this true martial artist that I see spoken of often and yet never see a definition for? Does such a thing even exist?

If it does exist, then the "True Martial Artist" is in the extreme minority amongst those who practice a martial art, so much so that his or her example is largely irrelevent.

And as for the comparison of this mythical "True Martial Artist" with the lowly hobbyist, most of us here, indeed 99% of those in MA, likely including you and the OP, are indeed hobbyists.

Unless either of you are school owners, professional instructors, professional fighters (or working very hard to be professional fighters), olympic hopefuls, or movie actors who specialize in MA movies, then yes, martial arts is your hobby.

After all, if you're going to devote your life to something, you should do it right, and the martial arts are a physical activity, so like any other physical activity, you want to be at the top of your game at all time. For example, the man who doesn't play baseball professionally but does play on a team with his friends works out and makes sure he's in shape by lifting weights and running, not just by playing baseball all day every day.

And here is the crux of the issue: "If you're going to devote your life to something, you should do it right."

And I completely agree with this: if you dedicate your life to something, do everything that you can to do it the best that you can.

But, with the exception of those who seek to be school owners or national champions, or perhaps hope for a movie career, very few who study a martial art do so with the intent of dedicating their life to it. Most have a dedicated profession or have dedicated their life to something else that is their passion.

Even the people who originally developed martial arts were not "martial artists." They were individuals who's lives required that they be able to fight in some capacity. Mostly soldiers. For the soldier, martial arts were a job skill, not a life's dedication. And as anyone in the military can tell you, there is a whole lot more to soldiering than just fighting and training to fight.

Even the renowned Shaolin monks' primary dedication is prayer, meditation, and whatever else goes along with monk-dom. Their martial arts were developed originally to keep the monks fit so that they wouild better be able to fulfil their lives as monks. Later, they were used to defend their monastery, which falls under the category of 'individuals who's lives required that they be able to fight in some capacity.'

By the same token, the social worker who's profession takes them to bad parts of the city feels the need to be able to 'fight in some capacity,' namely to defend themselves against an attack. Her life's dedication, however, is being a social worker and trying to improve the lives of those to whom she is assigned.

They took up a martial art to either
A) defend themselves in case of a mugging,
B) to get into shape because the local TKD school markets themselves as a fitness alternative to the gym,
or
C) because they thought that it would be cool to do it and maybe get a black belt.

In addition, most people have a day job that takes up the majority of their time and obligations at home that take up more.

The guy who plays baseball in a local league (but not professionally) stays fit because if he does not, he will likely get injured and miss work. Baseball is still just a hobby, and by no means what this guy has dedicated his life to.

Also, baseball in and of itself, involves mostly standing around waiting for something to happen, a brief flurry of intense action, then more standing around. You will not get fit by playing baseball and nothing else.

Most MA classes involve fairly constant movement, and while they really are not designed as a fitness class, they will have a greater impact in and of themselves than baseball will. Martial arts classes generally include a section of strength building as well. Thus, if you practice regularly, for simple fitness, the weight room is not a necessity the way it is in baseball.

Lastly, there comes a point in most people's lives where even with weight training, they will not be physically superior or even the equivalent of the attackers that they may face. They may also, due to age and injury, be unable to engage in activities such as the OP described. If their entire self defense repetiore depends upon physical strength, then they have effectively placed an artificial time limit on their ability to be effective in self defense.

Make no mistake, I am very much in favor of strength training and exercise outside of the martial arts. That must, however, be ballanced by practical consideration. To do ring gymnastics in particular, let alone all three, will require enough energy, time and effort in addition to professional and familial obligations that for 99% of those in martial arts, there would be nothing left for the martial art.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

They don't have to be for men, a woman can do that if she really wants to (unless you are interested in competing sports officially). Its is really stupid to believe that if from last 100 years only a man is doing something (officially) then a woman should not do it unofficially. I really think these exercise are fine for women to do (main taa ehi sochda haa).

That is not what she meant.

Two of the three exercises are geared towards men due to the fact that muscle mass is distributed differently between men and women and that men and women are proportioned differently. It is physiological, not socialogical.

Yes, a woman can certainly take them up, and with time and effort become good at them. But there are likely more productive ways for her to develop upper body strength.

Also, man or woman, becoming competent at either rings or pommel horse is a dedicated activity in and of itself. The time that it would take me to become proficient enough at either to the extent that it would benefit me physically would take a huge chunk out of martial arts training, not to mention require me to spring for a membership at a club that actually has rings and pommel horse, along with a trainer.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I never had any fight. I used the social skills I learned to avoid fights and keep the both parties happy. You need to prepare for times when meet some guys who are really a**holes, especially when they are drunk only a little.

Then you have developed skills that are far more useful than fighting skills, none of which require any degree of athleticism whatsoever.

I have been in fights and witnessed many fights, and while athleticism is most certainly a benefit, mental attitude makes a far greater difference than athleticism.

Daniel

 

[MBuzzy]

Why can't I just run, do push ups and sit ups? Being in shape does not necessarily involve equipment, long hours training, and excessive strength to even get started. One can be fit with nothing but a road and 30 mins a day.

 

[blindsage]

This is one of my most fundamental ideas about training in Martial-Arts: When you hit an opponent, it must make the difference in the existence of his life as a human being of flesh and bones and to do that your hits must carry lot of strength, along with your stamina to fight longer .

I am not talking about sports here. I think every part of body must be trained and perfected no matter what the source is. Being slim and strong, being obese, being devoid of stamina, being a man with an average strength are lifestyles. Except in exceptional circumstances, I think choosing a lifestyle is a person's choice and most choose being an average rather than one who continuously and consistently trains his body. I believe in being athletic, that people who are highly active in athletics lifestyle are the ones who have greater chances of being a Martial-Artist (If they go for it). Along with doing all the training drills, punching and kicking and sparring and practicing your favorite styles, I definitely believe one needs to invest some time everyday in doing Pommel Horse and Rings Gymnastics and Squash.

What is your opinion on it ?

Sounds like you are a proponent of Gymkata. Are you really short with an '80's haircut?

 

[Draven]

What is your opinion on it ?

I blieve everyone has a right to self-defense. I do not believe anyone needs to be physically fit to learn to defend themselves or to make the attempt. I do believe that part of being self-disciplined is found in how you approach training. Training without the need for and instructor to "push you" into training is a sign of self-discipline & to that degree it has an effect on fittness. If fittness or athelitic ability is a factor in being able to apply techniques then it is the choice to be self-disciplined that breeds said ability.