Atacx gym capoeira: You can fight with it

[Twin Fist]

josh, word of wisdom from an old dude to a young dude

It isnt hyperbole, it is experience. Always assume losing a fight means you will loose your life. I watched a guy bleed out right in front of me in Long Beach in a friggin parking lot cuz the hood rat shot him after he lost the fight. Hell, i was almost stabbed in Olongopo in the phillipines. I just got lucky and noticed the guy looking at me really hard before he made a move. I could have died.

you lose in a point match? no problem. You lose in the ring? hey, when you wake up you will be just fine. One the street? you lose you just may DIE. Remind yourself of and it will keep you away from fights you dont HAVE to be in. When the alternative is dying, you avoid everything you can avoid. The fact that you have, like myself, avoided dying so far just makes us lucky, and even for us, sooner or later luck will run out.

I meant what i said, i am just trying to be fair. I dont think tricks WILL work, but i allow that they CAN work. That isnt a contradiction to my way of thinking, if it seems that way to yours, sorry.

I dont have to test the capoeira tricks, i have seen LOTS of tricks tried, and almost all failed. tricks are just that, tricks. I will not rely on tricks. If it is an assumption based on experience, it isnt fallacious.

"Which is why a cartwheel kick falls at the very bottom of my took box. Because I can't pull it fast enough to work it. And in Seattle I am always on a hill, so it isn't much of an option for me anyway."

this is 100 logical and well thought out. For me, i wont even bother to learn something i will never use.

sorry, i can take more abuse in a push up position than in a hand stand. Maybe you are different, but i doubt it.

Finally, something for you to ponder. You mentioned Weaton's law?

consider this stuff and then add the element of MURPHY'S LAW

THATS why this will never be considered practical realistic self defense.

then again, there is also that clip of an actual fight breaking out during the rota, and what di those fearsome dancing warriors do? wrestled around like 4 year olds on a playground. Prob because they spent so much time learning how to dance they never bothered to learn how to throw a punch......

 

[Josh Oakley]

Twin Fist... I think we are done here. Seriously. You have no intention on changing your mind at all. Much love for you, old man, and there is a lot we can discuss... But this is just one where we are going to disagree on. Because our experiences are vastly different. And because you are not interested in a different viewpoint.

And, honestly... We already had this whole discussion before, and it is taking on a similar pace and tenor as the last one, and will go most likely the same exact place as last time: nowhere. Can we just agree to disagree on this one and go back to deriding socialism on the Study?

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[ATACX GYM]

The problem with all of the above, Twin Fist, is that you're conflating your dislike of this techinque FOR YOU with:


1) It's effectiveness for others.

2) The FACT that capoeiristas have been recorded as pulling their techs off during war and every single kind of combat and mayhem under far worse conditions than anything that we can imagine as a practical reality. And this information was meticulously recorded as being successful vs men with guns knives whips swords dogs superior numbers horses ships and cannons...BY PEOPLE WHO HATE THEM AND HAVE EVERY VESTED REASON TO DENIGRATE THEM IN EVERY WAY. The people who hate them...are the most meticulous chroniclers of their amazing feats. Which means that:


3) The very techniques that you denigrate have been regularly executed against trained and determined enemies armed with cannon swords guns machine guns etc etc when death for the loser was the only outcome...and the capoeiristas regularly succeeded. Because they're still here. And the people who hate them most? Yeah those would be the people recording the successes of these capoeiristas against them.

4) You conflate skillful expressions of agility, dexterity, and centuries worth of proven combat applicability with "tricks". The only "trick" is that the skilled martial artist will "trick" you into moving your hands away from your head so he can put his foot there. Reaallly fast and reaallly hard.


5) I live still on these very same streets of Long Beach. I live near Cherry and 10th, one of the most deadly areas in Long Beach. Saw a fight between druggies just today, right outside my apartment. Hood rat girl pulled a gun on the other druggie dude who was threatening her bf...or maybe he was the guy who was gonna pay her for a trick. I materialized near her, told her to put the gun down, she said:"Oh ***** it's Karate Cuzz!" and left on the spot. Know why? She'd witnessed me clean house in the Top Valu parking lot with the same "tricks" that you said doesn't work EVER, when that statement is massively false and empirically, proveably untrue.

And yeah one of the BGs had a Dillinger on him but he still couldn't beat my capoeira.

Capoeira--the very embodiment of malandragem and malicia--looks upon Mr. Murphy's arrival as a GOOD thing...because Capoeira has a looong relationship with Murphy's Law and when Mr. Murphy comes a-callin? Capoeira usually siccs Mr. Murphy on THE OTHER GUY. Consider how surprising a lightning bolt capoeira attack is to martial artists...and then amplify that to the bajillionth degree for some untrained schmuck of a bad guy.


6. "It isnt hyperbole, it is experience. Always assume losing a fight means you will loose your life..."--Twin Fist

Uhhh...capoeiristas were ex slaves and always belonged to a force that countered that of the state or at least defied it. What for you is primarily a post on the internet wherein you recite what you might have witnessed happening to someone else was one of the more TAME ways to die for them, and that threat of death was ever-prevalent. Because...you know...defiant slaves and defiant freedom fighters were more than killed; they were horrifically systematically brutishly tortured to death in order to provide an object lesson and warning for anyone else considering such behaviour. And there were still hundreds of capoeiristas who faced and overcame not only the threats but the armed, trained, agents of these threats who were generally sharply superior in number to the capoeiristas themselves. These magnificent warriors consistently overcame such odds with such regularity that even the castes which hated them applauded their magnificence and recorded their heroism. D

on't take my word for it, observe in his Book Capoeira Angola as Waldeloir Rego brings us the scene of urban chaos in his quoting of Carl Von Koseritz’s 1833 letter.

http://capoeirascience.com/content/development-urban-capoeira


"...This man [Carl Von Koseritz] was witness to the shocking act of arson upon a building erroneously taken to be the Ministry of Justice, “great quantites of capoeiristas” descended on the public square and began to shout, “Viva a Revolucão!”. In the process many grave injuries and much destruction of public property was incurred. In the same letter Von Koseritz confirms that spectacles such as these were not uncommon. Such behaviour was the mark of the capoeira maltas or gangs..."...with their lives and the lives of all who shared their race social rank and caste [ by the mid 1800s not all capoeiristas were African or Afro-Brazilian] at risk of being horribly exterminated with every splintered second, these men and women practiced capoeira and did so with such great success that [ again, I can't stress this enough] THE PEOPLE WHO HATE THEM RECORDED THEIR VICTORIES AGAINST THEM. And there were NUMEROUS capoeiristas who regularly trumped multiple armed police and military squads and units sent to kill them..

."...To mention but a few - in Recife there was Nascimento Grande, Rio had Manduca de Praia and Bahia can boast of producing probably the most famous capoeirista of all time - Besouro de Mangangá. These figures, particularly Besouro came to be folk heroes, their fame spread beyond the capoeira world. Capoeira came to signify a potent notion of resistance against the state, even for people who were not necessarily adepts themselves. Besouro was famous for openly beating the police and repeatedly defying capture, such was his personal legend that it is said he was only killed with the aid of an enchanted, wooden dagger. It is relevant that he was said to have carried the instructions for his own asassination to his killer, beleiving (as he was illiterate) that the document contained a recommendation for employment. .."...so yeah, Twin Fist. Capoeira was fearsome literally because you can bet your life on it and come out ahead more times than not. What you're saying is your own opinion mated with massive literal ignorance [ as in you have no actual factual data validating your conclusions so you literally don't KNOW what you're talking about, although you have the RIGHT to talk about it]

then again, there is also that clip of an actual fight breaking out during the rota, and what di those fearsome dancing warriors do? wrestled around like 4 year olds on a playground. Prob because they spent so much time learning how to dance they never bothered to learn how to throw a punch......

you would be right about that except...even KIDS know that wrestling is a part of capoeira...

...

and a old guy with as much real world experience as you have would know that real fighting isn't always a pretty technical affair, right?...so if the guys were wrestling sloppily, that should fall within the range and parameters that you've already experienced and/or acknowledged from the well of your "real life wisdom and experience", right?...

Basically Twin Fist, you're demonstrating your self defense techs here:


TWIN FIST SELF DEFENSE DEMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSKR3O8B39c&feature=related

and you believe that what you're doing is not only quality martial arts but the guy who's doing it is a sight more likely to beat the guys kicking striking and grappling in THIS video right here:

CAPOEIRA WORLD FIGHT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMX9KKzG4-0&feature=related

and that's okay man. It's all good. We just hellafied disagree, and the gargantuan mass of empirical data on all the relevant points are on the side of the people who disagree with you. So let's all acknowledge some basic points:

Twin Fist will not ever entertain the idea that head kicks, cartwheel kicks, and the like are viable self defense tools. That's fine. Some of us may choose to engage some points of his disagreement not for the purpose of changing his mind--he's made it abundantly clear that such a thing will never happen--but merely to highlight significant practical functional pieces of information for those of us who DON'T share Twin Fist's opinion...even if we don't harmoniously agree amongst ourselves. And by that "some" of us...that pretty much means the other 99.99% who aren't John aka Twin Fist.

And that's part of the reasons why I provide both the historical and video evidence extant in my videos.

 

[Twin Fist]

and again with the historical ********. but this time with an added "see how awesome and badd *** I am"

what part of "that doesnt impress me or mean anything to me" dont you GET?

i dont care what history says. History says samurai were bad ***. they wouldnt last 30 seconds TODAY.

do you believe EVERYTHING you read?

no, me either, and till i see it i will not take anyone's word for it

particuarly when it flies in the face of 30 years of training and experience.

it IS cool.
so is gymnastics
I would try to claim either was PRACTICAL self defense.

deal with it.

 

[Cyriacus]

I like Capoeira for the same reason I like Taekkyon: Its a Dance, which shifts seamlessly into Striking.
For once, I can speak for a System I have gotten around to Researching, which was due to an interest in Capeoira I had about a Year ago. Never mind War - Theres one thing that I believe makes Capeoira Strong: It has multiple opponents in mind for everything. Thats all. Thats why I like it. I can praise a bunch of other things, but thats the single reason I like it. Hell, if You want to hear Me praise Capoeira, make a Video of some Leg Sweeps. Leg Sweeps out of nowere > Body/Head Strikes out of nowere, in that they cannot be blocked or checked, only evaded. I do not, however, approve of all Capoeira. Just some of it.

 

[Twin Fist]

by the way, every time you have to tell us how many asses you kick? how awesome you are?


it gets LESS believable.

 

[ATACX GYM]

You ever work security before, John? I have. Many others have. CLEAN HOUSE does NOT= WHOOP ***. You ever have to quell a riot or crowd gone zonkers at a large concert? You ever have to expel hundreds of people from a large "party gone wild" kind of environment? I have. Many others have. We actually whooped proportionately little *** for the most part. But we sure cleaned house.

See John every time that you tell us that you're amenable to logic opinions thoughts data and perspectives not your own...to use your words...well "it gets LESS believable."

Twin Fist... I think we are done here. Seriously. You have no intention on changing your mind at all. Much love for you, old man, and there is a lot we can discuss... But this is just one where we are going to disagree on. Because our experiences are vastly different. And because you are not interested in a different viewpoint.

And, honestly... We already had this whole discussion before, and it is taking on a similar pace and tenor as the last one, and will go most likely the same exact place as last time: nowhere. Can we just agree to disagree on this one and go back to deriding socialism on the Study?

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Sounds like a plan. I will be putting up the kinds of video that we talked about earlier in this thread soonest...maybe round next week.

I like Capoeira for the same reason I like Taekkyon: Its a Dance, which shifts seamlessly into Striking.
For once, I can speak for a System I have gotten around to Researching, which was due to an interest in Capeoira I had about a Year ago. Never mind War - Theres one thing that I believe makes Capeoira Strong: It has multiple opponents in mind for everything. Thats all. Thats why I like it. I can praise a bunch of other things, but thats the single reason I like it. Hell, if You want to hear Me praise Capoeira, make a Video of some Leg Sweeps. Leg Sweeps out of nowere > Body/Head Strikes out of nowere, in that they cannot be blocked or checked, only evaded. I do not, however, approve of all Capoeira. Just some of it.

I don't even know all of capoeira. But I don't agree with all of anything so far...not even all of my own opinions. Lol. I'm still learning and stuff...

 

[MJS]

My take....I've watched alot of Ras' clips, mostly the Kenpo ones. I know he takes alot of **** for the way he does his Kenpo, but frankly, I think its good to have a critic in the Kenpo arts. Back when I joined this forum, I was a huge critic of Kenpo. I'm still a critic. LOL! People say that I dont know the 'Real" Kenpo, that Ras doesnt know the "Real" Kenpo. What is the "Real" Kenpo anyways? LOL!

As for these clips, the Capoeira ones...never done the art, probably never will. Mainly because its something thats few and far between, where I live, and second, because its something that just doesnt interest me. I like to follow the KISS concept, and IMO, this isn't following that. Maybe it is, I dont know, but I'm not seeing it. Will it work in a real fight? I mean a real life and death, *** is on the line, screw up and you're not coming home, type of fight. Don't know, but again, IMHO, its not something that *I* would personally do. I wouldn't do it in a crowded bar, any more than I'd pull someone into guard, and go for a triangle...lol. Could someone else? Dont know, and honestly, dont care.

For me, I want to: do the simplest, most effective thing, that'll ensure me getting the hell out of dodge. I don't want to do anything that will hinder my movement. I dont know...maybe the reason I'm not overly fond of it, is the same reason I am not fond of high kicks and anything that involves jumping or spinning.

But hey, if someone can make it work, more power to them.

 

[Twin Fist]

there used to be a strip club on PCH down by by the canal right before the 710 called Angels. Late 80's. Plus the tropicana. Strip clubs here between 93 and 99. Off and on? around 10 years. Its how i made my fun money in the navy and after till i got tired of the crap. Military police while i was in..

but i never feel the need to tell people about my rumbles or toot my own horn. I grew out of that sort of thing 20 years ago.

 

[Twin Fist]

this sums up my feelings quite well.

As for these clips, the Capoeira ones...never done the art, probably never will. Mainly because its something thats few and far between, where I live, and second, because its something that just doesnt interest me. I like to follow the KISS concept, and IMO, this isn't following that. Maybe it is, I dont know, but I'm not seeing it. Will it work in a real fight? I mean a real life and death, *** is on the line, screw up and you're not coming home, type of fight. Don't know, but again, IMHO, its not something that *I* would personally do. I wouldn't do it in a crowded bar, any more than I'd pull someone into guard, and go for a triangle...lol. Could someone else? Dont know, and honestly, dont care.

For me, I want to: do the simplest, most effective thing, that'll ensure me getting the hell out of dodge. I don't want to do anything that will hinder my movement. I dont know...maybe the reason I'm not overly fond of it, is the same reason I am not fond of high kicks and anything that involves jumping or spinning.

But hey, if someone can make it work, more power to them.

 

[Josh Oakley]

The problem with all of the above, Twin Fist, is that you're conflating your dislike of this techinque FOR YOU with:


1) It's effectiveness for others.

2) The FACT that capoeiristas have been recorded as pulling their techs off during war and every single kind of combat and mayhem under far worse conditions than anything that we can imagine as a practical reality. And this information was meticulously recorded as being successful vs men with guns knives whips swords dogs superior numbers horses ships and cannons...BY PEOPLE WHO HATE THEM AND HAVE EVERY VESTED REASON TO DENIGRATE THEM IN EVERY WAY. The people who hate them...are the most meticulous chroniclers of their amazing feats. Which means that:


3) The very techniques that you denigrate have been regularly executed against trained and determined enemies armed with cannon swords guns machine guns etc etc when death for the loser was the only outcome...and the capoeiristas regularly succeeded. Because they're still here. And the people who hate them most? Yeah those would be the people recording the successes of these capoeiristas against them.

4) You conflate skillful expressions of agility, dexterity, and centuries worth of proven combat applicability with "tricks". The only "trick" is that the skilled martial artist will "trick" you into moving your hands away from your head so he can put his foot there. Reaallly fast and reaallly hard.


5) I live still on these very same streets of Long Beach. I live near Cherry and 10th, one of the most deadly areas in Long Beach. Saw a fight between druggies just today, right outside my apartment. Hood rat girl pulled a gun on the other druggie dude who was threatening her bf...or maybe he was the guy who was gonna pay her for a trick. I materialized near her, told her to put the gun down, she said:"Oh ***** it's Karate Cuzz!" and left on the spot. Know why? She'd witnessed me clean house in the Top Valu parking lot with the same "tricks" that you said doesn't work EVER, when that statement is massively false and empirically, proveably untrue.

And yeah one of the BGs had a Dillinger on him but he still couldn't beat my capoeira.

Capoeira--the very embodiment of malandragem and malicia--looks upon Mr. Murphy's arrival as a GOOD thing...because Capoeira has a looong relationship with Murphy's Law and when Mr. Murphy comes a-callin? Capoeira usually siccs Mr. Murphy on THE OTHER GUY. Consider how surprising a lightning bolt capoeira attack is to martial artists...and then amplify that to the bajillionth degree for some untrained schmuck of a bad guy.


6. "It isnt hyperbole, it is experience. Always assume losing a fight means you will loose your life..."--Twin Fist

Uhhh...capoeiristas were ex slaves and always belonged to a force that countered that of the state or at least defied it. What for you is primarily a post on the internet wherein you recite what you might have witnessed happening to someone else was one of the more TAME ways to die for them, and that threat of death was ever-prevalent. Because...you know...defiant slaves and defiant freedom fighters were more than killed; they were horrifically systematically brutishly tortured to death in order to provide an object lesson and warning for anyone else considering such behaviour. And there were still hundreds of capoeiristas who faced and overcame not only the threats but the armed, trained, agents of these threats who were generally sharply superior in number to the capoeiristas themselves. These magnificent warriors consistently overcame such odds with such regularity that even the castes which hated them applauded their magnificence and recorded their heroism. D

on't take my word for it, observe in his Book Capoeira Angola as Waldeloir Rego brings us the scene of urban chaos in his quoting of Carl Von Koseritz’s 1833 letter.

http://capoeirascience.com/content/development-urban-capoeira


"...This man [Carl Von Koseritz] was witness to the shocking act of arson upon a building erroneously taken to be the Ministry of Justice, “great quantites of capoeiristas” descended on the public square and began to shout, “Viva a Revolucão!”. In the process many grave injuries and much destruction of public property was incurred. In the same letter Von Koseritz confirms that spectacles such as these were not uncommon. Such behaviour was the mark of the capoeira maltas or gangs..."...with their lives and the lives of all who shared their race social rank and caste [ by the mid 1800s not all capoeiristas were African or Afro-Brazilian] at risk of being horribly exterminated with every splintered second, these men and women practiced capoeira and did so with such great success that [ again, I can't stress this enough] THE PEOPLE WHO HATE THEM RECORDED THEIR VICTORIES AGAINST THEM. And there were NUMEROUS capoeiristas who regularly trumped multiple armed police and military squads and units sent to kill them..

."...To mention but a few - in Recife there was Nascimento Grande, Rio had Manduca de Praia and Bahia can boast of producing probably the most famous capoeirista of all time - Besouro de Mangangá. These figures, particularly Besouro came to be folk heroes, their fame spread beyond the capoeira world. Capoeira came to signify a potent notion of resistance against the state, even for people who were not necessarily adepts themselves. Besouro was famous for openly beating the police and repeatedly defying capture, such was his personal legend that it is said he was only killed with the aid of an enchanted, wooden dagger. It is relevant that he was said to have carried the instructions for his own asassination to his killer, beleiving (as he was illiterate) that the document contained a recommendation for employment. .."...so yeah, Twin Fist. Capoeira was fearsome literally because you can bet your life on it and come out ahead more times than not. What you're saying is your own opinion mated with massive literal ignorance [ as in you have no actual factual data validating your conclusions so you literally don't KNOW what you're talking about, although you have the RIGHT to talk about it]



you would be right about that except...even KIDS know that wrestling is a part of capoeira...

...

and a old guy with as much real world experience as you have would know that real fighting isn't always a pretty technical affair, right?...so if the guys were wrestling sloppily, that should fall within the range and parameters that you've already experienced and/or acknowledged from the well of your "real life wisdom and experience", right?...

Basically Twin Fist, you're demonstrating your self defense techs here:


TWIN FIST SELF DEFENSE DEMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSKR3O8B39c&feature=related

and you believe that what you're doing is not only quality martial arts but the guy who's doing it is a sight more likely to beat the guys kicking striking and grappling in THIS video right here:

CAPOEIRA WORLD FIGHT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMX9KKzG4-0&feature=related

and that's okay man. It's all good. We just hellafied disagree, and the gargantuan mass of empirical data on all the relevant points are on the side of the people who disagree with you. So let's all acknowledge some basic points:

Twin Fist will not ever entertain the idea that head kicks, cartwheel kicks, and the like are viable self defense tools. That's fine. Some of us may choose to engage some points of his disagreement not for the purpose of changing his mind--he's made it abundantly clear that such a thing will never happen--but merely to highlight significant practical functional pieces of information for those of us who DON'T share Twin Fist's opinion...even if we don't harmoniously agree amongst ourselves. And by that "some" of us...that pretty much means the other 99.99% who aren't John aka Twin Fist.

And that's part of the reasons why I provide both the historical and video evidence extant in my videos.

And we've come full circle. I'm out this thread. Shoot me a line when you post the individual vids we talked about and I'll jump in with pleasure.

 

[ATACX GYM]

My take....I've watched alot of Ras' clips, mostly the Kenpo ones. I know he takes alot of **** for the way he does his Kenpo, but frankly, I think its good to have a critic in the Kenpo arts. Back when I joined this forum, I was a huge critic of Kenpo. I'm still a critic. LOL! People say that I dont know the 'Real" Kenpo, that Ras doesnt know the "Real" Kenpo. What is the "Real" Kenpo anyways? LOL!

As for these clips, the Capoeira ones...never done the art, probably never will. Mainly because its something thats few and far between, where I live, and second, because its something that just doesnt interest me. I like to follow the KISS concept, and IMO, this isn't following that. Maybe it is, I dont know, but I'm not seeing it. Will it work in a real fight? I mean a real life and death, *** is on the line, screw up and you're not coming home, type of fight. Don't know, but again, IMHO, its not something that *I* would personally do. I wouldn't do it in a crowded bar, any more than I'd pull someone into guard, and go for a triangle...lol. Could someone else? Dont know, and honestly, dont care.

For me, I want to: do the simplest, most effective thing, that'll ensure me getting the hell out of dodge. I don't want to do anything that will hinder my movement. I dont know...maybe the reason I'm not overly fond of it, is the same reason I am not fond of high kicks and anything that involves jumping or spinning.

But hey, if someone can make it work, more power to them.

Capoeira has a plethora of simple dirty techs too. Please don't get the impression that capoeira is comprised of mostly or entirely of acrobatics and movements requiring large amounts of space. Capoeira is equally renowned for in close "dirty" fighting. Remember, for nearly 50 years capoeira was infamous for being employed by Maltas in Brazil in ambushes assassinations and the like. Remember that Capoeira is absolutely soaked and drenched in malandragem and malicia--cunning, dirty tricks, cleverness, deception, misdirection, guile, street smarts, guerilla tactics, extreme intelligence and creativity, spiritual power energy equilibrium manipulation--from its very inception. Throat slashes, eye gouges, groin crushes, ankle breaks, biting, head butts, elbow knee and shin kicks highly reminiscent of close quarters bare knuckle Muay Thai, and much much more are very very typical of capoeira.

I know love and practice Shaolin gungfu. Doesn't mean I'll be Whipping The Dragon's Tail while I'm sitting on a bar stool...you might catch this here Tiger Claw in the throat. I love FMA...doesn't mean that I'll be throwing side kicks in a phone booth. You might catch this hear pananjakman ballistic beatdown close quarters style. Every martial art has long range and short range techs, and the competent martial artist matches the tech to the situation. In a bar? A capoeirista is likely to bash you over the head with a bottle, knife you while you're taking a dump in the john, or ambush you in the alleyway nearest to the drinking establishment. Capoeiristas are known to set up dates times and places for a life and death struggle with an enemy, wait for that enemy to leave his residence and go to the appointed place...and burn his house down. Then ambush him while he looks for another place to live. This is why I keep putting up the history of capoeira as a very important way to illuminate the mindset of the cunning capoeirista and the malandragem and malicia for which he AND she [ yes there are deadly and infamous women capoeiristas] are known admired and feared for. Many capoeiristas were far famed for being folk heroes too...like Robin Hood. Saviors of the oppressed, avengers of wrongdoing. They were Brazil's 300, Robin Hood and his Merry Men, Zorro, Batman, ninja, Merlin, Catwoman and Morgan le Fey [ for the women] rolled into a single badazz African flavored polyrhythmic joyful laughing soulful supremely quick witted keen minded being.

And we've come full circle. I'm out this thread. Shoot me a line when you post the individual vids we talked about and I'll jump in with pleasure.

Okay man see you then. Pleasure having you in the thread and I look forward to your speedy return when the vids are up.

 

[ATACX GYM]

there used to be a strip club on PCH down by by the canal right before the 710 called Angels. Late 80's. Plus the tropicana. Strip clubs here between 93 and 99. Off and on? around 10 years. Its how i made my fun money in the navy and after till i got tired of the crap. Military police while i was in..

but i never feel the need to tell people about my rumbles or toot my own horn. I grew out of that sort of thing 20 years ago.

when I worked for Citadel Security armed driving patrol near Henry Ford near one of the Los Angeles Harbor's smaller private ports? That's when Angels moved to the area I patrolled along with another joint. Dark long dirty dangerous streets they were, with packs of wild dogs roaming at night. This area in 1994 was kind of a No Man's Land, with the refinery taking up most of the avenue (nearly or slightly more than a half-mile). Had several adventures in that area...

 

[Flying Crane]

I like Capoeira for the same reason I like Taekkyon: Its a Dance, which shifts seamlessly into Striking.

I gotta step in for a moment and correct this statement: capoeira is not and never was a dance. It is understandable that many people (including many capoeiristas) believe it is or see it this way, but this is not true.

Capoeira does have a musical and rythmic aspect to it, but this is common among many aspects of African cultures. The workday in the fields, the work around the house, etc. would often be accompanied by singing and music. It was a way to make the labor less tedious and it brought the people together into a shared experience which strengthened the community bond. The musical aspects of capoeira should be understood as coming from this same practice. Just because it is musical and it has rhythm does not mean it is a dance.

Just wanted to clarify that issue.

 

[Cyriacus]

I gotta step in for a moment and correct this statement: capoeira is not and never was a dance. It is understandable that many people (including many capoeiristas) believe it is or see it this way, but this is not true.

Capoeira does have a musical and rythmic aspect to it, but this is common among many aspects of African cultures. The workday in the fields, the work around the house, etc. would often be accompanied by singing and music. It was a way to make the labor less tedious and it brought the people together into a shared experience which strengthened the community bond. The musical aspects of capoeira should be understood as coming from this same practice. Just because it is musical and it has rhythm does not mean it is a dance.

Just wanted to clarify that issue.

Well, technically, nor is Taekkyon. Albeit, I was generalising based on most of what You just mentioned.

 

[MJS]

Capoeira has a plethora of simple dirty techs too. Please don't get the impression that capoeira is comprised of mostly or entirely of acrobatics and movements requiring large amounts of space. Capoeira is equally renowned for in close "dirty" fighting. Remember, for nearly 50 years capoeira was infamous for being employed by Maltas in Brazil in ambushes assassinations and the like. Remember that Capoeira is absolutely soaked and drenched in malandragem and malicia--cunning, dirty tricks, cleverness, deception, misdirection, guile, street smarts, guerilla tactics, extreme intelligence and creativity, spiritual power energy equilibrium manipulation--from its very inception. Throat slashes, eye gouges, groin crushes, ankle breaks, biting, head butts, elbow knee and shin kicks highly reminiscent of close quarters bare knuckle Muay Thai, and much much more are very very typical of capoeira.

I know love and practice Shaolin gungfu. Doesn't mean I'll be Whipping The Dragon's Tail while I'm sitting on a bar stool...you might catch this here Tiger Claw in the throat. I love FMA...doesn't mean that I'll be throwing side kicks in a phone booth. You might catch this hear pananjakman ballistic beatdown close quarters style. Every martial art has long range and short range techs, and the competent martial artist matches the tech to the situation. In a bar? A capoeirista is likely to bash you over the head with a bottle, knife you while you're taking a dump in the john, or ambush you in the alleyway nearest to the drinking establishment. Capoeiristas are known to set up dates times and places for a life and death struggle with an enemy, wait for that enemy to leave his residence and go to the appointed place...and burn his house down. Then ambush him while he looks for another place to live. This is why I keep putting up the history of capoeira as a very important way to illuminate the mindset of the cunning capoeirista and the malandragem and malicia for which he AND she [ yes there are deadly and infamous women capoeiristas] are known admired and feared for. Many capoeiristas were far famed for being folk heroes too...like Robin Hood. Saviors of the oppressed, avengers of wrongdoing. They were Brazil's 300, Robin Hood and his Merry Men, Zorro, Batman, ninja, Merlin, Catwoman and Morgan le Fey [ for the women] rolled into a single badazz African flavored polyrhythmic joyful laughing soulful supremely quick witted keen minded being.

Interestingly enough, I popped over to youtube, typed in Capoeira, and saw just what I described.....gymnastic type moves, high kicks, lots of jumping, etc. See, this is the problem Ras, and I'll use TKD as an example. People tend to see alot of the same thing, and assume its all like that, thus why alot of people think TKD sucks. I mean, when you're seeing the same stuff in vids., at dojos, etc, its kinda hard to imagine anything else.

As for this....like I said, its just not my cup of tea. I'm not gumby. If something requires me to jump and kick high and all this fancy stuff, well, the odds of it working.......

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, technically, nor is Taekkyon. Albeit, I was generalising based on most of what You just mentioned.

sure, I understand and I certainly don't hold it against ya. The "dance-like" aspect of capoeira is often jumped on as a way to market classes at health clubs and whatnot, to get people into the classes. It's less threatening to the cube jockeys than calling it what it is: martial arts. So it gets presented as a great way to get in shape by doing this "combination of dance, music, martial arts and FUN!!!". and that particular message has gotten out there. That is becoming a dominant way of portraying the art, and in my opinion and experiences, it is not accurate and I'd even say it's a disservice to the art itself. It's just a pet peeve of mine so I chime in and try to set the record straight when it comes up.

 

[Flying Crane]

Interestingly enough, I popped over to youtube, typed in Capoeira, and saw just what I described.....gymnastic type moves, high kicks, lots of jumping, etc. See, this is the problem Ras, and I'll use TKD as an example. People tend to see alot of the same thing, and assume its all like that, thus why alot of people think TKD sucks. I mean, when you're seeing the same stuff in vids., at dojos, etc, its kinda hard to imagine anything else.

As for this....like I said, its just not my cup of tea. I'm not gumby. If something requires me to jump and kick high and all this fancy stuff, well, the odds of it working.......

It's true, what you see on places like Youtube tend to focus on the gymnastics and "WOW-FACTOR" stuff, what pleases the audience. In my opinion, that is an unfortunate trend to make that a big focus and is not true to historical capoeira. There is definitely an element of capoeira that is going the same route as Modern Wushu and performance XMA, in becoming something more like a performance version of the art, to the detriment of the fighting method. I don't deny that existence and I feel it is very unfortunate and the art itself suffers for it. But the existence of such an element, even when that is becoming the predominant vision of the art that most people see, does not negate the fact that the art still is an extremely viable combat method for those who understand it properly and who wish to train for that purpose.

Some months ago we had another thread on this topic, and it largely went down this same road of "yes it is" "no it isn't" childish nonsense. In that thread I really attempted to put out some information to educate the readership about the true capoeira (to the best of my understanding and based on seven or so years of training in the art), including the differences between the GAME of capoeira which is what is seen in the roda, and using capoeira to actually fight. They are not the same thing, tho of course there is some level of overlap, much the way sparring and real fighting have some overlap while not being the same thing. I made some lengthy posts in an attempt to present information and perspective that few of the readership here has, so they could be educated.

That thread turned into a fiasco and was ultimately locked. The discussion in this thread is largely going in that same direction. Personally, I put some information out there simply to educate. People can take it or leave it. I have zero interest in convincing anyone who does not want to be convinced. The opinions of the willfully and deliberately ignorant have no affect on reality, and their decisions to remain "unconvinced" in no way bothers me. Just speaking for myself. And Mike, I'm not aiming these comments at you. Your post just sparked the keyboard diarrhea.

 

[chinto]

of course you can use the techniques in a fight! would I choose that system for self defense? no, but there are people out there that can and do make it work for them when its real, and nasty.

 

[MJS]

It's true, what you see on places like Youtube tend to focus on the gymnastics and "WOW-FACTOR" stuff, what pleases the audience. In my opinion, that is an unfortunate trend to make that a big focus and is not true to historical capoeira. There is definitely an element of capoeira that is going the same route as Modern Wushu and performance XMA, in becoming something more like a performance version of the art, to the detriment of the fighting method. I don't deny that existence and I feel it is very unfortunate and the art itself suffers for it. But the existence of such an element, even when that is becoming the predominant vision of the art that most people see, does not negate the fact that the art still is an extremely viable combat method for those who understand it properly and who wish to train for that purpose.

Some months ago we had another thread on this topic, and it largely went down this same road of "yes it is" "no it isn't" childish nonsense. In that thread I really attempted to put out some information to educate the readership about the true capoeira (to the best of my understanding and based on seven or so years of training in the art), including the differences between the GAME of capoeira which is what is seen in the roda, and using capoeira to actually fight. They are not the same thing, tho of course there is some level of overlap, much the way sparring and real fighting have some overlap while not being the same thing. I made some lengthy posts in an attempt to present information and perspective that few of the readership here has, so they could be educated.

That thread turned into a fiasco and was ultimately locked. The discussion in this thread is largely going in that same direction. Personally, I put some information out there simply to educate. People can take it or leave it. I have zero interest in convincing anyone who does not want to be convinced. The opinions of the willfully and deliberately ignorant have no affect on reality, and their decisions to remain "unconvinced" in no way bothers me. Just speaking for myself. And Mike, I'm not aiming these comments at you. Your post just sparked the keyboard diarrhea.

No problem Mike and thanks for the reply. I'll have to take a peek at that other thread.