Atacx gym capoeira: You can fight with it

[Twin Fist]

first 500 years old, now it's 600 years old, by tomorrow it will have been created by adam, and will be the technique cain used to kill abel.......

i dont care about the past

all 12000 of those words were just smoke and a waste of electrons, since they lend zero credibility to your opening position: this works for modern self defense.

create a thread about the history, add the FACT that none of the history can really be PROVEN and like MOST arts history is shrouded in myth and legend and that will be interesting reading.

for this subject, in this thread, all that is just useless verbiage.


Josh is also correct here:

Any combination that absolutely requires the success if each preceding attack to be able to pull off each subsequent attack is DEEPLY flawed, both from the standpoint of Self Defense in general, and capoeira in specific.

tricks dont work, and more importantly, anythign that leaves you that open to counter attack is stupid to even try.

go back to the drawing board, inject some reality into your theory and see if you can come up with some part of this art that doesnt leave you totally exposed.

 

[Flying Crane]

I am no expert capoeirista, but one thing I learned in the roda ...

Hey Josh,

what's your background with capoeira? thanks!

 

[Josh Oakley]

first 500 years old, now it's 600 years old, by tomorrow it will have been created by adam, and will be the technique cain used to kill abel.......

i dont care about the past

all 12000 of those words were just smoke and a waste of electrons, since they lend zero credibility to your opening position: this works for modern self defense.

create a thread about the history, add the FACT that none of the history can really be PROVEN and like MOST arts history is shrouded in myth and legend and that will be interesting reading.

for this subject, in this thread, all that is just useless verbiage.


Josh is also correct here:

Any combination that absolutely requires the success if each preceding attack to be able to pull off each subsequent attack is DEEPLY flawed, both from the standpoint of Self Defense in general, and capoeira in specific.

tricks dont work, and more importantly, anythign that leaves you that open to counter attack is stupid to even try.

go back to the drawing board, inject some reality into your theory and see if you can come up with some part of this art that doesnt leave you totally exposed.

Sigh. I don't know if you realize this or not, but even when you are taking the more logical approach, you come off as so incredibly hostile. Seriously. Drop the vitrol, it makes even your earnest attempts at rational discussion seem like direct personal attacks.

And yes, tricks do work. Deception works in both hand to hand combat and full scale war. And as far as handstand kicks, or cartwheel kicks... Well actually they can work, if the guy is fast enough, and the terrain isn't slippery. Will they work for me or you? Well no, not in general. We are both a little on the heftier side. We can't accelerate fast enough. I can do it, but by the time I have overwhelmed the guy enough to attempt it, there are other options available to me that are more economic.

But a taller, lighter, skinner guy, on flatter, drier ground than what is normally available in Seattle... I've been kicked in the head enough times to say empirically that yes it does. Unfortunately, the only guy I know personally who can do it lives in LA. Next time he comes up here, I'll see if he is willing to beat my *** on video.

But the thing is, you have already stated unequivocally that absolutely nothing could convince you that any of the capoiera tricks could possibly work in a street fight. This begs the question of why you are bothering to post in the first place. If you are already 100% dismissive of the concept in the first place, and nothing will change your mind on the subject, what is there to discuss?

Furthermore, the attitude is unscientific. If one of us showed you exactly how it could be set up to work, performed it multiple times on video, against different types if opponents, then actually went out into the street, and picked multiple fights, using said tricks to win, and explained the physics behind the move... Well like you have said, nothing can change your mind, right? This isn't an empirical approach.

Lastly, there is one thing I disagree with you entirely: this concept that anything that leaves you open to counterattack is too stupid to even try. Well... That is every attack! EVERY attack leaves you open to counterattack. Name me one attack that can't be countered.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Josh Oakley]

Hey Josh,

what's your background with capoeira? thanks!

Nothing formal. I lived in a house for a few years with guys from various backgrounds. One of them had trained capoiera. And when we would spar, he used it quite a bit. We all exchanged information, and he taught us some of the basic moves, terminology, and philosophy behind it.

So when I say I am no expert capoierista, I say it in earnest. But I have played the roda ,poorly, and got my *** handed to me multiple times. And I have had capoiera used against enough times to have experienced its effectiveness first hand.

I miss that house. Some of the most glorious *** whoopings I have ever received were at the hands of those guys.

It was a wonder any of us ever got girls to hang out, though. My wife likes to remind us repeatedly about the pervasive stench of BO and feet.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[ATACX GYM]

The third one. And I meant to say rear naked choke.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

[video=youtube_share;BCoczuoDlSs]http://youtu.be/BCoczuoDlSs[/video]


Okay I think I take your meaning here. The Speed Trap does two things at once: it allows the lead weapon to hit whatever the selected target is without obstruction by the lead limb and it simultaneously uses the opponent's own lead limb to cross up and obstruct the deployment of the opponent's lead limb. I address this very concern from 1:28-1:30 of this video. Now I get to the back pretty easily and that is why I deploy the groin shot...each part of the attack [ negating my opponent's lead kick, speed trap, groin strike, passagem] can end the fight prior to the rear naked choke being deployed.

From 0:57-0:59 I execute the Speed Trap from my preferred combative angle. I use an explosive movement that we call EXPLOSION to close the distance suddenly on my opponent. My raised leg prevents any low line counter kick or low line takedown before I've closed the distance and applied the Speed Trap to the face and the groin. From my favored position which I display from 0:57-0:59, my passagem sweeps to the REAR leg of my opponent, not his lead leg, and it makes the RNC much easier. This is what I do 90% of the time.

But what happens most of the time is that others who aren't used to this tech will execute it and find themselves in less than ideal situations and positions. This is what I cover from 1:20-1:44. Notice that I land in a split stance with one leg in front of my opponent instead of my preferred position with both feet behind my opponet. My point in this segment is that once you close the distance, all you have to do is keep going with the rest of the sequence of techs and you'll wind up with the RNC or at least a sweep and an escape out the back door at worst.

When sparring with this tech, the hardest part for people to get used to is the sweep entry to the back. I teach this after we've already learned how to arm drag to the back and learned several other basic movements to achieve the back. The Trap and groin shot really helps add to the confidence that the student has prior to executing the sweep kick...and then we just rep it out. Quality muscle reps against resistance [ we call this Isolated Sparring ] very speedily downloads the requisite skills. It's really no problem once we start moving. I usually have brand newbs doing this tech against resistance inside of 25 minutes.

 

[Flying Crane]

Nothing formal. I lived in a house for a few years with guys from various backgrounds. One of them had trained capoiera. And when we would spar, he used it quite a bit. We all exchanged information, and he taught us some of the basic moves, terminology, and philosophy behind it.

So when I say I am no expert capoierista, I say it in earnest. But I have played the roda ,poorly, and got my *** handed to me multiple times. And I have had capoiera used against enough times to have experienced its effectiveness first hand.

I miss that house. Some of the most glorious *** whoopings I have ever received were at the hands of those guys.

It was a wonder any of us ever got girls to hang out, though. My wife likes to remind us repeatedly about the pervasive stench of BO and feet.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

cool enough, there's not many people here I think, with a capoeira background. When someone rears their head I get curious to know their connection.

I had trained obsessively for a number of years back in the 1990s, until I drifted into the Chinese arts and came to the conclusion that capoeira wasn't the best fit for me. But I was hardcore about my training when I was doing it, there was a time when I couldn't get enough of it. I was reasonably accomplished and was one of the senior students in my school at that time, could play a respectable game but also knew where I stood in the bigger picture. I was a somewhat bigger fish in a fairly small lake, but I was a graduated student which is kinda equivalent to a shodan or something like that.

anyway, interesting to see that there are others here who know at least a little bit about it.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Interestingly enough, when I was in SKK, my instructors always liked my crescent, reverse crescent, and especially wheel kicks, but laughed at me because I never threw them like a kempoka. They didn't stop it because the kicks worked.

And they never looked quite like SKK.... because I had drilled them originally in the context of capoiera.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Josh Oakley]

[video=youtube_share;BCoczuoDlSs]http://youtu.be/BCoczuoDlSs[/video]


Okay I think I take your meaning here. The Speed Trap does two things at once: it allows the lead weapon to hit whatever the selected target is without obstruction by the lead limb and it simultaneously uses the opponent's own lead limb to cross up and obstruct the deployment of the opponent's lead limb. I address this very concern from 1:28-1:30 of this video. Now I get to the back pretty easily and that is why I deploy the groin shot...each part of the attack [ negating my opponent's lead kick, speed trap, groin strike, passagem] can end the fight prior to the rear naked choke being deployed.

From 0:57-0:59 I execute the Speed Trap from my preferred combative angle. I use an explosive movement that we call EXPLOSION to close the distance suddenly on my opponent. My raised leg prevents any low line counter kick or low line takedown before I've closed the distance and applied the Speed Trap to the face and the groin. From my favored position which I display from 0:57-0:59, my passagem sweeps to the REAR leg of my opponent, not his lead leg, and it makes the RNC much easier. This is what I do 90% of the time.

But what happens most of the time is that others who aren't used to this tech will execute it and find themselves in less than ideal situations and positions. This is what I cover from 1:20-1:44. Notice that I land in a split stance with one leg in front of my opponent instead of my preferred position with both feet behind my opponet. My point in this segment is that once you close the distance, all you have to do is keep going with the rest of the sequence of techs and you'll wind up with the RNC or at least a sweep and an escape out the back door at worst.

When sparring with this tech, the hardest part for people to get used to is the sweep entry to the back. I teach this after we've already learned how to arm drag to the back and learned several other basic movements to achieve the back. The Trap and groin shot really helps add to the confidence that the student has prior to executing the sweep kick...and then we just rep it out. Quality muscle reps against resistance [ we call this Isolated Sparring ] very speedily downloads the requisite skills. It's really no problem once we start moving. I usually have brand newbs doing this tech against resistance inside of 25 minutes.

But you still failed to address my original criticism of what you do if the guy counters the first punch and SIMULTANEOUSLY knees or leg checks your stepping foot. In that case, the groin shot is inadequate, because you aren't in position to fire it off.

That is the biggest hole in this offense. I was remindedast night by a drunken transient just how easy it is to buckle even a trained martial artist's knee. And no, your raised leg does not prevent a leg check or knee... At least not once you have stepped and dedicated that leg to movement.

There is also the possibility that the opponent rolls with the first punch and attempts a spinning elbow. Not the goin shot isn't available, and you are in a catch 22. If you hold on to the wrist, the momentum of the elbow pulls you through and you are now positioned way too far in front of him and you lose all chance at the groin shot, and the positiva become a dangerous idea. If you let go of the wrist, you are still in danger of the spinning elbow.

The move also assumes the opponent will just be standing there, which in unlikely.

There are other potential fail points at each step, and they can and should be addressed. And they would make for an INCREDIBLE video if you did. One thing a lot of people do when they look at the techniques is think that any single point, their combo could be disrupted and figure out how they would defeat their own combo at every step.


Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[ATACX GYM]

Pro tip: you would be better off focusing on the technical aspects of the capoeira videos you posted, and saving the history for a thread on the history of capoeira.

Reasoning: whether it worked in the past or not, what matters is whether and HOW it can be used to fight.

The history is fascinating, and a worthy topic. But in the context of this thread, it is actually a non-sequitor. "YOU can fight with it". Well, none of us have ever been slaves, none of us have fought in a rebellion, and most of us don't live in and have never been to Brazil.

In the context of this thread, it is the employment of the historicists fallacy.

So far you have had two people critique your videos as having a basic problem of each move being essential to the success of the next move. And since you have been in a fight or two, you know that it IS a problem.

I am no expert capoeirista, but one thing I learned in the roda is that being able to switch gears and and abandon a plan is essential. In addition, to stack assaults in a way that the opponent has a very slim chance of success against you no matter WHAT he tries is a fundamental aspect of capoiera.

Capoeira is deception. True. But it is not JUST deception. It is not meant merely to DECEIVE the opponent, but to overwhelm them as well. And you COULD be making these arguments and getting into the technical descriptions of WHY the techniques you posted would work.

But instead, you talk about Capoeira history.

And trust me, I am fascinated by capoiera history. But it won't help you win over anyone. It won't help you establish the central point that YOU CAN FIGHT WITH CAPOEIRA... at least not convincingly.

But you COULD. If you focus on the technical aspects. And frankly, you are going to have to give some ground on this topic. Any combination that absolutely requires the success if each preceding attack to be able to pull off each subsequent attack is DEEPLY flawed, both from the standpoint of Self Defense in general, and capoeira in specific.

Capoeira has no specific combination cannon, though there are mestres that will have a fondness for certain combs. And this is because capoeira is fluid in its approach.

Your combos have a lot of good going for them. But they CAN be better. And I know you can take a straightforward, reasoned critique, because you have done so before.

Now as far as the videos themselves, you need more camera angles, and you need to show the move at full speed, or as close enough to full speed for the viewer to get the idea of the move. And show in a little bit more detail what you can do with the combo, how you can modify it, at each point where the technique could fail. And the reason to do this is: that's in capoeira as well!

Hell, you could probably win over even a guy like Twin Fist if you show how a capoeirista deals with getting his arm kicked out from under him when attempting a handstand kick. And as a bonus, showing that kick full speed can demonstrate just how little time there is to actually attempt such a thing in the first place.

Seriously, if you focus on THOSE aspects, you will be more effective in your delivery.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Just saw this post. Excellent post as usual brutha. And you're right...I know of no human endeavor that can't be improved vastly [ even the mouse trap,lol]. I already talked to my cameramen before I saw this post about using more angles and slo-mo so I can go full speed and then have him have the video go slow mo right behind it with a voice over so people can see what I'm doing and follow the verbal instructions.I like the idea of showing some of the techs at greater speed but some of my sparring partners aren't so enthused with that concept, lololol. As you know, even when it's not coming at you to hit you? Having full speed capoeira techs thrown at you can be a very very unnerving experience.Lolol. But your point is well taken, I thank you for them,I have reflected upon them. So allow me to respond:

As you know, capoeira and pretty much any art has the option to adapt or delete moves mid-stream. Capoeira is especially adept at doing so due to the unique specifics of its history. Any of the techs can be deleted adjusted or altered at some point or other and the techs will still work fine.

Video 1:

You can delete the kick combo just use footwork and shoot in with the low line attack and flow back up. Look at the first 6 seconds where I'm moving and feinting. I don't HAVE to do that...I could just shoot in if I want and be every bit as confident of my success as a wrestler is when he shoots in for the double leg blast. Except that my striking limbs actually close the distance faster than the wrestler's tackle because I'd be moving at double leg speed with a shield in front of my face and launching a strike at the last moment. I could do just that and then go about my business. I could immediately feint a shot takedown, throw the groin punch as bait, then flow up with the backfist palm strike and simultaneous knee all at once then ginga out. I could delete the kicks and takedown altogether and simply trap-strike and ginga out. No tech in the sequence is irrevocably chained to the preceding or following tech. Which you know.

TESOURO TO ACHILLES LOCK

I simply showed one of my secondary setups. I could simply explosively close the distance and execute the tesouro similar to this:

CUNG LE SCISSOR LEG TAKEDOWN

http://youtu.be/glNedroM7As

but in capoeira we don't stay on the ground. We flow back up to the esquiva frente or vingativa or any position you feel most comfy with in capoeira. The constant motion horrifically compounds the damage of the Achilles Lock and even though we practice it in my Gym at sparring speed? Nobody really wants to volunteer for it to be done on video to them, so that's why I elected to stay on the ground after executing this tech. If you look at 1:37-1:39 you'll see my cousin Chris' eyes widen as I apply the Achilles Lock. Even gently executing the technique causes discomfort. He made it clear that he didn't want me to execute the full Tesouro to Achilles Lock while in Vingativa before we even started filming, and I honored his wishes. I could forego the tesouro altogether and simply use the setup at 0:54 to ginga to a right leg lead which places me at my cousin's back and belly to back suplex him into the Achilles Lock. None of these techs are essential to the success of the others.

REAL WORLD GINGA AND AU VS SINGLE AND MULTIPLE OPPONENTS

At 1:56 I could insert a knee to the groin before I slip to my cousin's back, I could head butt him, bite his chest. I could insert a ridgehand to the groin from the front or rear just before, as or immediately after I ginga to Chris' back. I could shoot the double and au and ginga escape after ward. I could break the clinch and ginga and au or either one of them singly. No tech is essentially linked to the other.


As for kicking a arm out from under a capoeirista...mid-cartwheel? Real hard to do. Reeeaaaaallll hard to do. I have however trained with cartwheels done on the forearms for awhile, and we have long been doing cartwheel-rolls sooo...I guess we can definitely add those aspects to video if they're edifying in any significant way.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Just saw this post. Excellent post as usual brutha. And you're right...I know of no human endeavor that can't be improved vastly [ even the mouse trap,lol]. I already talked to my cameramen before I saw this post about using more angles and slo-mo so I can go full speed and then have him have the video go slow mo right behind it with a voice over so people can see what I'm doing and follow the verbal instructions.I like the idea of showing some of the techs at greater speed but some of my sparring partners aren't so enthused with that concept, lololol. As you know, even when it's not coming at you to hit you? Having full speed capoeira techs thrown at you can be a very very unnerving experience.Lolol. But your point is well taken, I thank you for them,I have reflected upon them. So allow me to respond:

As you know, capoeira and pretty much any art has the option to adapt or delete moves mid-stream. Capoeira is especially adept at doing so due to the unique specifics of its history. Any of the techs can be deleted adjusted or altered at some point or other and the techs will still work fine.

Video 1:

You can delete the kick combo just use footwork and shoot in with the low line attack and flow back up. Look at the first 6 seconds where I'm moving and feinting. I don't HAVE to do that...I could just shoot in if I want and be every bit as confident of my success as a wrestler is when he shoots in for the double leg blast. Except that my striking limbs actually close the distance faster than the wrestler's tackle because I'd be moving at double leg speed with a shield in front of my face and launching a strike at the last moment. I could do just that and then go about my business. I could immediately feint a shot takedown, throw the groin punch as bait, then flow up with the backfist palm strike and simultaneous knee all at once then ginga out. I could delete the kicks and takedown altogether and simply trap-strike and ginga out. No tech in the sequence is irrevocably chained to the preceding or following tech. Which you know.

TESOURO TO ACHILLES LOCK

I simply showed one of my secondary setups. I could simply explosively close the distance and execute the tesouro similar to this:

CUNG LE SCISSOR LEG TAKEDOWN

http://youtu.be/glNedroM7As

but in capoeira we don't stay on the ground. We flow back up to the esquiva frente or vingativa or any position you feel most comfy with in capoeira. The constant motion horrifically compounds the damage of the Achilles Lock and even though we practice it in my Gym at sparring speed? Nobody really wants to volunteer for it to be done on video to them, so that's why I elected to stay on the ground after executing this tech. If you look at 1:37-1:39 you'll see my cousin Chris' eyes widen as I apply the Achilles Lock. Even gently executing the technique causes discomfort. He made it clear that he didn't want me to execute the full Tesouro to Achilles Lock while in Vingativa before we even started filming, and I honored his wishes. I could forego the tesouro altogether and simply use the setup at 0:54 to ginga to a right leg lead which places me at my cousin's back and belly to back suplex him into the Achilles Lock. None of these techs are essential to the success of the others.

REAL WORLD GINGA AND AU VS SINGLE AND MULTIPLE OPPONENTS

At 1:56 I could insert a knee to the groin before I slip to my cousin's back, I could head butt him, bite his chest. I could insert a ridgehand to the groin from the front or rear just before, as or immediately after I ginga to Chris' back. I could shoot the double and au and ginga escape after ward. I could break the clinch and ginga and au or either one of them singly. No tech is essentially linked to the other.


As for kicking a arm out from under a capoeirista...mid-cartwheel? Real hard to do. Reeeaaaaallll hard to do. I have however trained with cartwheels done on the forearms for awhile, and we have long been doing cartwheel-rolls sooo...I guess we can definitely add those aspects to video if they're edifying in any significant way.

Now we are getting somewhere useful. We could probably dedicate a thread to each video where we analyze the crap out of each video, and another one dedicated solely to video production concepts. Actually, we SHOULD. And I am game if you are.


So, point one, put your partner in a helmet. A motors helmet. No, seriously. Better yet, put him in full motocross gear even. Helmet, neckroll, spine protection... The works. Basic sparring headgear wouldn't be enough, obviously.

Video 1 I will skip for now because I haven't looked at it closely enough yet.

Obviously, I am not suggesting the Achilles lock be demonstrated full speed. Recipe for disaster.

Kicking out a capoierista's arm is tough to do, true... However, it can be done. And trained for. And trained AGAINST.

... and it IS trained, so why discount it? You have trained more capoeira than me so I would imagine you know that is the case.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Twin Fist]

Josh, you are reading me wrong. Let me be as clear as I possibly can be without getting into one syllable words:

tricks can work. No question.

that does not make them a good idea. Just because you get lucky and get away with something stupid the first time doesnt mean you need to press your luck and try it every time. Like i told you in the first thread about this garbage, I hooked up with a bikini model once. Doesnt mean i was able to everytime i tried.....

a trick might work, but you cant rely on something that requires LUCK to pull off.

now, you could say "nothing works all the time"

thats true. thats why you play it safe and stick to your highest percentage tools. Cuz in REAL combat, you cant afford to lose.

so this:

"you have already stated unequivocally that absolutely nothing could convince you that any of the capoiera tricks could possibly work in a street fight."

should read as this:

Absolutely nothing can or will convince me this crap is practical or suitable for REAL self defense.


For point fighting? sure, try it out, nothing to lose. For MMA? go for it, worst case, you get knocked out and lose a fight, big deal.

for self defense? get over the delusions of being some sort of craptastic super hero and stick to the basics, they are basics for a reason.

practical
safe
economic
effective

SURE, you kick someone in the head, for WHATEVER angle, and ring that bell, you win.

but

dont rely on that head kick, cuz if it misses, your *** is grass. And again, when it is for REAL, losing means dying.

COULD this work?

sure, so could acting like i have a gun in my pocket, ala grand tourino, or screaming at the top of your lungs, that COULD work, but you cant count on it, now can you?

to quote Chris Rock "you can drive a car with your feet, that dont make it a smart ****ing idea"


also, to add, i didnt say "anything that leaves you open is a bad idea" i said

"anything that leaves you THAT open is a bad idea".

There is no more vulnerable position i can think of than in a handstand. Seriously, thats just stupid. Keep yourself in the proper north south orientation. Does that even need to be said? yes, everything leaves you open to SOME extent. So minimize your exposure

in other words, no handstands, no cartwheels, no superman crap.

it might work, it might get you dead. plus, WHY do some fancy low percentage crap when you can just kick thier knee out and elbow them in the face till they stop moving?

Sigh. I don't know if you realize this or not, but even when you are taking the more logical approach, you come off as so incredibly hostile. Seriously. Drop the vitrol, it makes even your earnest attempts at rational discussion seem like direct personal attacks.

And yes, tricks do work. Deception works in both hand to hand combat and full scale war. And as far as handstand kicks, or cartwheel kicks... Well actually they can work, if the guy is fast enough, and the terrain isn't slippery. Will they work for me or you? Well no, not in general. We are both a little on the heftier side. We can't accelerate fast enough. I can do it, but by the time I have overwhelmed the guy enough to attempt it, there are other options available to me that are more economic.

But a taller, lighter, skinner guy, on flatter, drier ground than what is normally available in Seattle... I've been kicked in the head enough times to say empirically that yes it does. Unfortunately, the only guy I know personally who can do it lives in LA. Next time he comes up here, I'll see if he is willing to beat my *** on video.

But the thing is, you have already stated unequivocally that absolutely nothing could convince you that any of the capoiera tricks could possibly work in a street fight. This begs the question of why you are bothering to post in the first place. If you are already 100% dismissive of the concept in the first place, and nothing will change your mind on the subject, what is there to discuss?

Furthermore, the attitude is unscientific. If one of us showed you exactly how it could be set up to work, performed it multiple times on video, against different types if opponents, then actually went out into the street, and picked multiple fights, using said tricks to win, and explained the physics behind the move... Well like you have said, nothing can change your mind, right? This isn't an empirical approach.

Lastly, there is one thing I disagree with you entirely: this concept that anything that leaves you open to counterattack is too stupid to even try. Well... That is every attack! EVERY attack leaves you open to counterattack. Name me one attack that can't be countered.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Twin Fist]

I was from TKD when i learned kenpo, and i got the same thing:

"that isnt how we do it"

*WHACK*

"but it clearly works so thats great, keep"

WHACK

"Doing it"

Interestingly enough, when I was in SKK, my instructors always liked my crescent, reverse crescent, and especially wheel kicks, but laughed at me because I never threw them like a kempoka. They didn't stop it because the kicks worked.

And they never looked quite like SKK.... because I had drilled them originally in the context of capoiera.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[ATACX GYM]

But you still failed to address my original criticism of what you do if the guy counters the first punch and SIMULTANEOUSLY knees or leg checks your stepping foot. In that case, the groin shot is inadequate, because you aren't in position to fire it off.

That is the biggest hole in this offense. I was remindedast night by a drunken transient just how easy it is to buckle even a trained martial artist's knee. And no, your raised leg does not prevent a leg check or knee... At least not once you have stepped and dedicated that leg to movement.

There is also the possibility that the opponent rolls with the first punch and attempts a spinning elbow. Not the goin shot isn't available, and you are in a catch 22. If you hold on to the wrist, the momentum of the elbow pulls you through and you are now positioned way too far in front of him and you lose all chance at the groin shot, and the positiva become a dangerous idea. If you let go of the wrist, you are still in danger of the spinning elbow.

The move also assumes the opponent will just be standing there, which in unlikely.

There are other potential fail points at each step, and they can and should be addressed. And they would make for an INCREDIBLE video if you did. One thing a lot of people do when they look at the techniques is think that any single point, their combo could be disrupted and figure out how they would defeat their own combo at every step.


Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Actually I did...see the "stepping foot" is a leg and knee check. Go back and slow down the execution of the movement from 0:22-0:57. slow down frame by frame from 0:56-0:58.I nuetralize my opponent's ability to to knee or leg check my lead foot because my lead foot,and I don't step with my lead leg I do a tech I EXPLODE OFF OF MY REAR LEG with my lead leg in the air and I don't put it down until my foot is behind my opponent. My lead left leg is higher than my opponent's lead right leg. This makes it impossible for him to knee me because he needs his knee to be raised high enough to do so and my knee and leg are in the occupying space, and that stops him. So he can't block my knee. That's one of the main advantages of using this tech. You see it lots in even point karate where they use the "jousting backfist" but first explosively close the distance on their opponent. They rely upon speed and deception and the placement of their lead knee over the lead leg of their opponent to prevent their opponent from countering with lead leg techs. We fighting capoeiristas do the same thing but with alot more malandragem.

But even if he did do so? Just fire the ridgehand to the groin from the front of your opponent. No technique is predicated upon the mandatory success of the other. Like the jab-cross, it's good if both work, but either one could work independently and neither requires the other. If the jab-cross is checked off, the boxer can simply jab-cross again. If the entry for this tech is checked off, the capoeirista--master of movement timing and rhythm--will simply flow into another movement and could easily repeat this same sequence from another position or another setup. Or I could stay right there. Look at the sequence from 1:22-1:31. I could simply fire the groin strike from the rear and execute the passagem and go for the RNC there. Or I could double up on the strike after the speed trap. I'd have the advantage. Again, the speed surprise and technical execution of the tech is very very hard to deal with,and that's why it enjoys such success when deployed. A spinning elbow isn't fast enough nor does the recipient of a Speed Trap have his body properly aligned to follow with a elbow strike.

If my opponent eluded my trapping hand? He gets hit by my lead striking hand. The technique and the followthrough makes it very hard to counter in the ways that you're suggesting. I've had numerous people try and it's never worked that way. I've had a few people try to crash the line as I close on them and body clinch me,and they smothered the punch. But they still got hit by my punch and my lead leg [closing on me turns the explosing into a strong knee attack made all the more powerful because your added body momentum crashes into the lead knee ], they ahd to address and oftentimes couldn't get passed the lead leg...and if they did? Cool, we grappled for a moment, I hit them in the groin, and followed with the passagem and RN.

My cousin is taller than me and he has longer reach [ most people are taller than me; I'm only 5'7" ]. If I failed on the speed trap, the punch is still delivered and I have the advantage. If he checked my Speed Trap and checked my punch, he's still not possessed of the proper body alignment to counter with a rolling elbow because the energy of my forward movement transfers into him and he has to first regain his balance. Even momentarily doing that allows me to shoot the ridgehand to the groin and follow with any part of the rest of the sequence that I choose, or readjust to another position and do it again.

Yeah...I think you're right here too...high speed execution of this tech makes these points of mine alot clearer and answers your questions preemptively. I'm going to do that from now on.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Now we are getting somewhere useful. We could probably dedicate a thread to each video where we analyze the crap out of each video, and another one dedicated solely to video production concepts. Actually, we SHOULD. And I am game if you are.


So, point one, put your partner in a helmet. A motors helmet. No, seriously. Better yet, put him in full motocross gear even. Helmet, neckroll, spine protection... The works. Basic sparring headgear wouldn't be enough, obviously.

Video 1 I will skip for now because I haven't looked at it closely enough yet.

Obviously, I am not suggesting the Achilles lock be demonstrated full speed. Recipe for disaster.

Kicking out a capoierista's arm is tough to do, true... However, it can be done. And trained for. And trained AGAINST.

... and it IS trained, so why discount it? You have trained more capoeira than me so I would imagine you know that is the case.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

I LIKE THE IDEA OF ANALYZING THE CRAP OF EACH VIDEO. Back on KenpoTalk which was my first experience with a TMA website, I called this very thing a "Kenpo Lab" and that's what I wanted. I think then and now that collectively we can craft better techs than any of us or any organization could do on its lonesome. So yeah I'm down. Isn't there a technique section of MT?

Unfortunately I have zero motorcycle equipment available. Zero Red or Blue Men. In my hood? Red and Blue Men are Bloods and Crips. And I'll film the counter to an attempted kick in the face and a kick to the arm of a capoeirista within a week of Thursday. Promise. It's a basic part of the combat instruction of the au--cartwheel--like shoulder placement, direct retraction to the starting point,and keeping your rear hand up near your cheek is part and parcel of being taught how to jab...at least, when you're taught by quality coaches [ capoeira and/or boxing].

 

[ATACX GYM]

Interestingly enough, when I was in SKK, my instructors always liked my crescent, reverse crescent, and especially wheel kicks, but laughed at me because I never threw them like a kempoka. They didn't stop it because the kicks worked.

And they never looked quite like SKK.... because I had drilled them originally in the context of capoiera.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

One of my BBs is in SKK...another thing that we have in common...

 

[Josh Oakley]

Josh, you are reading me wrong. Let me be as clear as I possibly can be without getting into one syllable words:

Well, I am glad you are deciding to clarify. But if I am reading you wrong, it is because I am reading you literally. Let's take a look.

tricks can work. No question.

Direct contradiction with what you said earlier, which was:" tricks dont work". This is a direct quote from post #41. Either they CAN work or they DON'T work. The terminology is mutually exclusive.

Now for the rest.

Just because you get lucky and get away with something stupid the first time doesnt mean you need to press your luck and try it every time.

This is an argument based on an an assumption that a cartwheel is in fact lucky rather than skillful. And that assumption neglects setup, practice, speed, position, etc.

You haven't based this on experience, as was established in the last thread, and really the only way you could empirically test the idea is to drive the 4.5 hours to Austin and test it out at a capoeira school. You really don't care enough about this point to do that, and frankly I don't blame you. 9 total hours of drive time, not counting rest stops, food, and the experiment itself... Well that is more effort than I would make myself.

But the thing is, without that, you are making an argument from assumption, which is a fallacious line of reasoning. You haven't established that point, and your further points are based on this one.

Like i told you in the first thread about this garbage, I hooked up with a bikini model once. Doesnt mean i was able to everytime i tried.....

And this actually is making a similar point I made already. You probably won't get more than the one bikini model. I have slightly better chances, (based on relative youth and sexiness), but they still aren't very high.

But to tie this statement to my similar statement, my friend that can pull off the cartwheel kicks with much greater ease, skill, and success than we can is much leaner, taller, and faster than either of us. He also is a model, aspiring actor, accomplished hip hop/pop/break dancer, and is a LOT better looking than either of us. (So you know I am not making the guy up, his name is Quinton Bunche, and is dance name is Vicious Groove.) He has dated MULTIPLE models, and has also had more exposure to models, and has worked his ability to attract models a lot more than either of us. This is not attributed to luck, except in the sense that ANY human interaction is tied to luck.

thats why you play it safe and stick to your highest percentage tools. Cuz in REAL combat, you cant afford to lose.

Which is why a cartwheel kick falls at the very bottom of my took box. Because I can't pull it fast enough to work it. And in Seattle I am always on a hill, so it isn't much of an option for me anyway.

But because I can't do it well does not mean it can't be done well for a person who is better equipped, even in a street fight.

so this:

"you have already stated unequivocally that absolutely nothing could convince you that any of the capoiera tricks could possibly work in a street fight."

should read as this:

Absolutely nothing can or will convince me this crap is practical or suitable for REAL self defense.

The operator here is "absolutely nothing could convince me", to which I bring up all my original objections.

SURE, you kick someone in the head, for WHATEVER angle, and ring that bell, you win.

Yes.

but

dont rely on that head kick, cuz if it misses, your *** is grass.

Unfounded. If YOU miss maybe. I have missed a head kick and been fine.

And again, when it is for REAL, losing means dying.[/.quote]

Hyperbole. And, statistically, bullcrap. Compare violent crimes to homicides, and that is very obviously not the case. If losing means dying, I would have died a number of times already.

That being said, death is a distinct possibility. But what I am trying to show you is that if you are going to use conjecture, assumptions, and hyperbole to make your points... Expect to be "read wrong"

also, to add, i didnt say "anything that leaves you open is a bad idea" i said

"anything that leaves you THAT open is a bad idea".

Alright, I concede this point.

There is no more vulnerable position i can think of than in a handstand.

1. Laying on your stomach with your hands behind your head.
2. Being back mounted.
3. Facing away from your opponent while standing sitting or kneeling and being unaware of the opponent.
4. Fetal position.
5. Pushup position.

If you were being literal about your comment, you are flat out :'wrong. If you are employing hyperbole again, cut it out.



Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Flying Crane]

drive the 4.5 hours to Austin and test it out at a capoeira school.
Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Austin capoeira? Is that Cafuringa? I know him, he baptized me in the San Francisco ABADA Capoeira group batizado back in...I'd say it was about 1996 or so. Hey Josh, if you run into him, tell him Cruzado says "Hi!"

I played a fair bit with Cafuringa, he was an affiliated ABADA Group instructor, taught in Santa Cruz and then Maui for a while, came back to the SF Bay area for a while before going to Austin where he went solo and separated from ABADA. He would come in and out of our school at times and play in our rodas, good fun that guy was. Rough and tumble, liked to scrap a bit. I remember one roda where he was coming at me hard and fast, and to my amazement I kept evading him and he was missing his shots. So we played a game later and he nailed me in the ribs with a kick and threw me about ten feet out of the roda. I knew that was coming, it was just a matter of minimizing the damage on the inevitable. He was out to get me that day and I was outclassed. But he respected me.

You wanna find a capoeirista who likes to fight and probably wouldn't be above stepping out to prove it? Cafuringa would probably be one willing to do it. He's not afraid to put his money where his mouth is.

 

[Josh Oakley]

See, there you go, twin fist. Your opportunity for empiricism.

FC, all I did was Google search for the nearest capoeira school to him. This was actually the closest I could find.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Flying Crane]

See, there you go, twin fist. Your opportunity for empiricism.

FC, all I did was Google search for the nearest capoeira school to him. This was actually the closest I could find.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

ah, gotcha. Well, I believe Cafu is in that area, probably him that you found.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I LIKE THE IDEA OF ANALYZING THE CRAP OF EACH VIDEO. Back on KenpoTalk which was my first experience with a TMA website, I called this very thing a "Kenpo Lab" and that's what I wanted. I think then and now that collectively we can craft better techs than any of us or any organization could do on its lonesome. So yeah I'm down. Isn't there a technique section of MT?

Not one for capoeira. For kempo, yes.

Unfortunately I have zero motorcycle equipment available.

You have zero motorcycle equipment available SO FAR!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk