my opinion of you has exactly ZERO to do with my opinion of your opinions in matters related to martial arts. It is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There are people, well known people that I dislike personally. That has nothing to do with my evaluation of their skills. There is a world famous kenpo guy that I had to walk away from when i met him cuz he was an ***.
" We have 5 centuries of documented history including the entire campaign of the Paraguayan war which absolutely factually shows the opposite. You are still entirely entitled to your opinion, no matter how contrary it is to the historical record."
we have centuries of documented evidence that muskets work too. Doesnt make it a good idea to use one today does it? Hell, I can produce documented evidence of bigfoot, but you are still only ever gonna see one on a beef jerky commercial.....documented historical evidence means exactly nothing to me.
you will NEVER convince me that those tricks, and that is all they are, tricks, are viable self defense techniques. I have seen people score in tournament fighting with this stuff, after all, it is un-expected and uncommon
but tournaments aint real
And I dont care what Anderson Silva can do. You aint Anderson Silva and neither am I and neither one of us will ever be that good. And what a professional fighter can do in a contest is irrelevant to self defense for the street were are no rules and the bad guys are never alone.
yes, there are flukes where someone gets caught off guard and gets hit. So dont bother posting all the clips of flukes, accidents and simple good luck
Your claims fly in the face of literally everything ever written about real self defense. Real Self defense can best be summed up as:
KISS
keep it simple, stupid
tricks cant be relied on, handstands are idiocy, and anything that leaves you WIDE OPEN to getting your *** busted, is a very bad idea
In EVERY SINGLE CLIP you posted IF YOU MISS, you will be dead because the trick leaves you WIDE OPEN.
And there is a reason that Casa de Kenpo shows the technique at 1/4 speed AND full speed.
save the tales of you fighting off entire schools of grandmasters. Save the stories of your beach rumbles with 123 ninjas. No one wants to hear you crow about how you can make it work cuz of how much of a bad *** you are. This is a martial arts BB, we are all bad asses. lol
oh, and to be fair, I call BS on most style of kung fu too. drunken monkey? pfffft please try that crap on the street.
these systems with the outlandish moves are still great martial arts to learn and study and the techniques build our bodies and the culture is awesome and all sorts of satisfying to study and learn
but
some things just dont work when the **** is real. No matter how much of a bad *** the person doing them is.
If capoeira is nothing but tricks? Lotsa people have been getting tricked on battlefields over the last 5 centuries and right now as we post drug cartels are being tricked in the favelas in Brazil; and these drug cartels employ hitmen and tons of bad guys rockin machine guns. Lotsa people have been tricked into defeat right here in the streets of Long Beach CA where I and several of my clients and many other mestres have been tricking people for years and even scores of point fighting MMA bareknuckle karate hardcore Thai Muay Thai international Muay Thai and UFC competetiors and champions like Anderson Silva have been tricking people. Seems like alotta people get tricked right to sleep. But hey...I am not trying to convince you, John. Not my intention when I opened this thread. You don't think capoeira is a viable self-defense method? Fine. Noted. Like I said...the literal documents of history and warfare prove you to be absolutely positively factually wrong...but that has nothing to do with your right to trumpet your opinion [ which by definition isn't factual] as loud as you want. Hell my opinion isn't fact either...in this case, however, my opinion is absolutely in alignment with historical fact. Yours is in diametric opposition to it.
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/capoeira-history.html
"...As a way of rebellion, the slaves began to kill their white masters, and burnt down the plantations that they were working in. In order to prevent arrest, the slaves sought refuge in mountains near the city of Recife, and received great help from the Indians in and around the areas. In their endeavor to flee, they discovered an area that was rich with palms, gave it the name Palmares, and started their own African community there. Thus, the origins of Capoeira began here, where different African tribes came together to share and discover each others rituals. Along with these rituals, martial arts, dance and games, were also introduced, thus, resulting in the creation of Capoeira.
Soon, Capoeira became a way of rebellion, a symbol of freedom, and a trademark of the slave movement in Brazil. Another influence on the history of Capoeira came when Holland attacked Brazil, to take it over from the Portuguese, the Africans further weakened the Portuguese by employing Capoeira against them, which involved surprising and ambushing their opponents with fast movements. These tactics have formed the basis of Capoeira. In essence, Capoeira was a martial art, but the music and dance had been introduced into it to make it appear less violent. The African communities began to impart the knowledge and techniques among their members. This lethal form of attack finally led to the abolition of slavery in the year 1888 in Brazil.
Capoeira soon became a way of life for several Africans in Brazil, even though slavery had been abolished. Capoeristas, or people who performed this art, found jobs as bodyguards, and it became a helpful tool in strengthening the police services, and in other security services. Even so, people remained wary of this art form, and continued to believe it to be a persistent political threat to the country. This led to the establishment of a law to eliminate all Capoeristas from the country. However, this law was met with strong opposition, and finally the ban on Capoeristas was lifted, when Brazil was at war with Paraguay, which was won only due to the efficiency of the army, predominantly comprising blacks, trained in this art form..."
Apparently whole police forces and politicians were tricked into making alliances with, negotiating with, and combatting capoeiristas when all they had to do is listen to opinions like Twin Fist's and they'd speedily realize that they were facing nothing more than insubstantial inconsequential silly tricks.Apparently whole countries have been tricked to death by capoeristas during times of war. Apparently whole armies have been tricked to death by it in failing to enforce slavery for perpetuity. Apparently the country of Brazil was terrified that it too might be tricked into nonexistence if it allowed capoeira and capoeiristas to proliferate while attempting to abuse the Black,mixed race population, and poor classes there. Apparently, Holland and Brazil were each tricked to death and defeat when they clashed with and/or attempted to exploit via alliances of convenience capoeira guerreros. Apparently, the Brazilian army was ably supplemented by capoeiristas with skill enough to trick Paraguay into thinking that it lost a war. Apparently Anderson Silva can trick his way into the UFC Middleweight championship of the world.
http://www.amazon.com/Capoeira-Jogo-Angola-Luanda-Cyberspace/dp/1583941835
"Capoeira evolved as a Brazilian martial art developed initially by that country’s African slaves. Marked by deft, deceptive movements played on the ground or completely inverted, the form started gaining worldwide popularity in the early 20th century, when this second volume of Gerard Taylor’s wide-ranging history begins.
The book opens with a study of the capoeira “Bamba,” Mestre Bimba, who became renowned as a fighting champion in Bahia and opened the first legal academy during the dictatorship of Getulio Vargas..."
Capoeira tricked a dictator that came to power knowing of the successes of capoeira in war. If only Getulio Vargas--by all accounts a hard, sometimes cruel, but very shrewd man--knew he was being tricked! He'd've been more successful.
http://www.amazon.com/Capoeira-Jogo-Angola-Luanda-Cyberspace/dp/1556436017
"...The first in a two-volume series on capoeira, Volume One traces the origins of the popular martial art and dance form from the beginning of the slave trade in the Americas in the 1500s to the early years of the Brazilian Republic in the 20th century. Focusing on the people and events that shaped the art form in Brazil prior to the "academy" period of the last century,
Capoeira: The Jogo de Angola from Luanda to Cyberspace explores the subject from many vantage points. Author Gerard Taylor explains how the fighting techniques of African forces laid the groundwork for capoeira movements. He shows how work songs, religion, and various percussive traditions and instruments shaped capoeira music over the years. Drawing on archival sources and historical accounts, the book paints a vivid picture of capoeira’s dramatic evolution from the sugar plantations of Pernambuco through the brutal backstreets of Rio and the Minas Gerais goldmines on its way to becoming a world-class practice..."
http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Capoeira-Lessons-Cunning-Afro-Brazilian/dp/0195176979
"...
Learning Capoeira: Lessons in Cunning from an Afro-Brazilian Art is a provocative look at capoeira, a demanding acrobatic art that combines dance, ritual, music, and fighting style. First created by slaves, freemen, and gang members, capoeira is a study in contrasts that integrates African-descended rhythms and flowing dance steps with hard lessons from the street. According to veteran teachers, capoeira will transform novices, instilling in them a sense of malicia, or “cunning,” and changing how they walk, hear, and interact.
Learning Capoeira is an ethnographic study based on author Greg Downey’s extensive research about capoeira and more than ten years of apprenticeship. It looks at lessons from traditional capoeira teachers in Salvador, Brazil, capturing the spoken and unspoken ways in which they pass on the art to future generations. Downey explores how bodily training can affect players’ perceptions and social interactions, both within the circular roda, the “ring” where the game takes place, as well as outside it, in their daily lives. He brings together an experience-centered, phenomenological analysis of the art with recent discoveries in psychology and the neurosciences about the effects of physical education on perception..."
Oh no! Capoeira is tricking droves of highly intellegent, well learned scholars who've minutely studied its background! Oh no say it ain't so, Joe!
Waitaminnit you mean slavers have been noting that capoeira has been around tricking them into letting Africans free by thinking that Africans were beating them up killing them escaping and burning down plantations freeing enslaved workers at goldmines from over 600 years ago to now? That's a whole lotta tricking going on. I bet that the people who were tricked wished they had a Twin Fist around them to let them know that they weren't really getting beat up killed outsmarted outfought and outmanuevered, they were merely being tricked. Just don't believe the trick and you'll be alive not outsmarted you won the fight you weren't outmanuevered you won the war. Don't believe the trick and you're fine.
To be crystal clear? I provide this information as a means of informing most of the martial arts world which has almost no idea of the actual history and efficacy of capoeira. I am not looking to engage or seeking to sway persuade or argue with Twin Fist regarding this matter. One of the senior capoeiristas on this site informed me that it's his opinion that the elder masters of capoeira wouldn't want the knowledge of its devastating effectiveness to become public knowledge, and I agreed. During the time of the Elder Mestres of Capoeira, capoeiristas were literally fighting to survive a brutal enslaving oppressing regime.
Many of us know of the illustrious histories of our choses Oriental and Occidental martial arts and have become better human beings for it. We have dedicated significant portions of our lives to it. We should also know something similar of capoeira; we should know that it is literally and without a doubt the most documented martial art delivery the oppressed from the oppressors, the enslaved from the enslavers, and bringing joy love and spirituality to all people of all races creeds nationalities genders age groups and more. Or else we can find ourselves at the mercy of people who know nothing but think that they do. We may find ourselves denied of a truly magnificent and perhaps life altering experience and joy. We may find that if we listen to the naysayers and the ignorant and believe their inanity, if we buy their snake oil, if we credit their untruths? We will certainly discover that we have been lied to and that we have been...tricked. And we never had the chance to experience the truth of capoeira.
