Assisted Suicide

[Dirty Dog]

http://www.courant.com/news/breaking/hc-assisted-suicide-0206-20130205,0,7008818.story



Thoughts?

I've said much the same thing before:

I have an untreatable, incurable cancer. Fortunately, it's slow growing, so right now I am getting along just fine. But eventually it will lead to an ugly death, most likely either from liver failure or right sided heart failure (basically drowning). Quality of life is, to me, far more important than quantitiy. When I reach a point where I am merely existing, not living, I will have a party, tell my loved ones thanks for everything, go to bed, and I don't really care if it's legal, for me, because I have the knowledge and resources to make it possible regardless. But for others, yes, I wish it were legal.
I see patients every day who are dying miserable deaths. For those who want life prolonged at any cost, I do my best. For those who just want to be allowed to die with a little dignity, I also do my best, within the limits of the law. But I wish we could grant the wishes of both.

 

[arnisador]

I'm for the right to assisted suicide philosophically, but concerned about the potential for abuse (grandma is a drain on our resources so we pressure her into this or misrepresent things to her physicians). But I think it can be done with adequate safeguards. It's a basic freedom.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Robservation: Ain't it funny that no matter who you ask, when it concerns "them" and their quality of life they're all for it... but if it concerns somebody else they'll sometimes be opposed to it? Seriously, I've never had anyone tell me that they would prefer to be kept "alive" on life support when there was no hope of recovering the quality of life they had before.

My mother is a retired RN with over 50+ years on the job. Over half of that was spent in Long-Term care. She made me promise a long time ago that regardless of what the law says, in certain circumstances I had better pull the plug.

 

[ballen0351]

I've said much the same thing before:

I have an untreatable, incurable cancer. Fortunately, it's slow growing, so right now I am getting along just fine. But eventually it will lead to an ugly death, most likely either from liver failure or right sided heart failure (basically drowning). Quality of life is, to me, far more important than quantitiy. When I reach a point where I am merely existing, not living, I will have a party, tell my loved ones thanks for everything, go to bed, and I don't really care if it's legal, for me, because I have the knowledge and resources to make it possible regardless. But for others, yes, I wish it were legal.
I see patients every day who are dying miserable deaths. For those who want life prolonged at any cost, I do my best. For those who just want to be allowed to die with a little dignity, I also do my best, within the limits of the law. But I wish we could grant the wishes of both.

At what point do you draw a line? Should anyone for any reason be allowed to ask a doc and get a prescription or only terminally Ill? I personally dont think a doc should be involved in the process but if someone wants to do it themself have at it that's none of my business.

 

[Carol]

Postulate:
A: There is a soul.
B: Miracles happen, including unlikely recoveries.
C: There is an afterlife in which we are rewarded according to our sins.
D: Suicide is a sin for which the eternal reward is 'to be transformed into gnarled bushes and gnawed upon by harpies, and to be denied corporeal resurrection in the second coming, for they have voluntarily discared their mortal forms'.

If these postulates are true, then under what morality can you permit anyone to commit suicide?

A major religion begins a daily prayer with this line: Dukh daaroo sukh rog bhaiaa jaa sukh taam na hoee

Suffering is the medicine, pleasure is the disease, for when there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.

This blunt philosophy is reflected, directly or indirectly, in many religions and worldviews. For example, this is also a prominent theme in Christianity:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/r...-of-the-sick/suffering-can-lead-to-salvation/
http://catholicischristian.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/suffering-toward-salvation/
http://promisesofdestiny.blogspot.com/2012/11/suffering-is-medicine-for-salvation.html
http://bible.cc/hebrews/2-10.htm

Human suffering is needed. Human suffering is desirable. And when there are needs and desires, there are goals.

Under what morality can one permit anyone to commit suicide?

Under a morality that rejects the use of human suffering as a construct of organizational power.

 

[Dirty Dog]

At what point do you draw a line? Should anyone for any reason be allowed to ask a doc and get a prescription or only terminally Ill? I personally dont think a doc should be involved in the process but if someone wants to do it themself have at it that's none of my business.

I support medically assisted suicide for the terminally ill. I don't think anybody has suggested that it be allowed "for any reason" so I'm not sure why you'd even ask.

 

[cdunn]

It's not for me to decide what a person does with their body. It's theirs.

I agree. However, legally, the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled, under Rehnquist, that assisted suicide is not a right protected under the US constitution. The same legal doctrine that makes forcing life-support upon those that refuse it battery makes providing the means of suicide accessory to murder. Indeed, American law, as a whole, does not affirm a right to suicide. We do not punish a successful suicide - There's no point. Six states still have statues against the attempt.

This should change, and the Oregon law permitting assisted suicide is a good model.

 

[ballen0351]

I support medically assisted suicide for the terminally ill. I don't think anybody has suggested that it be allowed "for any reason" so I'm not sure why you'd even ask.

There are some that believe it should be allowed for any reason. I'm one of them. You want to kill yourself I dint care just don't call me to come deal with it when you screw it up. I hate suicide calls they are dangerous for police because the person is too unpredictable. I was used as a suicide by cop a few years ago. The coward tried to kill himself but couldn't do it. So he called 911 several times hanging up. When I showed up he pulled a gun on me forcing me to shoot him. Had I hesitated he would have shot me to force me to kill him. If someone wants to do it they should be allowed. Its between them the family and their beliefs.
Putting restrictions on it makes it too complicated then you need to decide what illnesses are approved or how sick they are ect.

 

[Sukerkin]

My sympathies, Ballen. A horrible thing to have to deal with.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Yet another example of involving the government in something they have no business being involved in thereby complicating the issue and creating more problems for more people that would have otherwise not been affected.

 

[ballen0351]

My sympathies, Ballen. A horrible thing to have to deal with.

I was just the tool he chose to use. That's the point I'm trying to make but It may not be coming out that way, by putting restrictions on suicides it forces people who just cant do it to themselves to find more destructive ways to force someone to kill them. There have been many officers shot and killed trying to "talk down" an armed suicidal subject. I teach a class on it at the police academy. I teach my students if they are asking you to kill them and they are armed you better treat them no different then someone armed thats saying Im going to kill you. "Kill Me" can turn to "Fine Ill Kill You" in a blink of an eye. Now people tell me to kill them all the time it don't go around just shooting people but if they are armed you better be prepared to defend yourself. I teach to never lower your guard just because hes not threatening you. My only criticism I got from my shooting investigation was I didnt shoot him sooner I let him get to close to me with his gun. I was trying to "Talk Him down" since he didnt point the gun directly at me I lowered my guard. Until he got pissed I wasn't shooting him and he came at me and started to aim at me. I fired but he still had a good 10-15 seconds where after he was hit he was still able to shoot back had he decided too. Thankfully for me he just stopped kinda smiled dropped his gun turned and walked back towards his living room then dropped dead.
I dont know what other methods or systems that can be put in place. I dont feel regular medical doctors should be involved in the process but maybe a specialist type system and some type of clinic. I dont know but making it illegal to kill yourself is just a stupid law. If your successful who do you arrest? If your not depending on the method you have alot more problems to worry about then some stupid criminal charge.

 

[MJS]

Im not sure Doctors should be involved in the process since they are supposed to save lives not take them. But you want to kill yourself I don't care. I think its the cowards way out and I would never do it but whatever.

I agree, and frankly, I dont think I could ever bring myself to do it.

For the supporters here where do you draw a line? Who is allowed to do it and whos not. An elderly person with Cancer is ok by what I see but what about a 20 yr old that wants to die because he was burned and is now disfigured? How do you decide who can and cant or is it open to anyone for any reason you just go to the doc and say hey I wanna die give me a prescription

Exactly, and thats what I was getting at with my post above. Where do you draw the line? It seems that anytime this topic comes up, it's always geared towards the elderly, yet as you mention, a 20yr old, who was burned, and is now disfugured, may want to die, because he/she is embarrased by the way they look.

 

[Tez3]

I agree, and frankly, I dont think I could ever bring myself to do it.



Exactly, and thats what I was getting at with my post above. Where do you draw the line? It seems that anytime this topic comes up, it's always geared towards the elderly, yet as you mention, a 20yr old, who was burned, and is now disfugured, may want to die, because he/she is embarrased by the way they look.

I didn't take this thread to mean the elderly at all, my brother died aged 26 he'd been terribly ill for six years. I assumed it meant anyone of any age who was terminally ill and/or suffering from illness that was extremely painful and where the quality of life was nil.

I don't think embarrassment is the reason someone suffering burns may want to kill themselves it's more likely the endless painful and traumatic operations they usually have to endure. However, being disfigured shouldn't be made light of, it can be not just life changing but literally life ending for many. In India, Pakistan and Afghanistan women have acid thrown over them causing terrible disfigurment, this means they won't be 'marriagable' nor employable, they are pariahs, many kill themselves as life for them has ended. Others like Simon Weston a Falkands veteran who was badly burnt when the Argentinians bombed the ship he was on have made exemplary lives for themselves, as has many Afghan veterans, it depends on the level of support quite often.

The mentally ill who are suicidal are a different kettle of fish to those who are very clear and content with their intention of killing themselves because they feel their quality of life is so poor and/or they are suffering from pain or infirmity they can no longer bear.
If they are able to take their own lives without involving others the situation while distressing isn't legally probmatic from a legal point of view. The problems come when they are unable to do it themselves and ask for help. Here we have had people travel to Switzerland where there is somewhere that will help them to die. http://www.dignitas.ch/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22&lang=en

The situaiton here is that it is illegal to help someone to die, which I believe is how it should be, however while the police have to investigate, the Crown Prosecution Service will take each case on it's merits, often it does goe to court and the helper is found guilty of assisting someone to die but is given something like a two year suspended sentence which I think satisfies everyone, it is illegal to kill someone and it should be investigated, just in case it wasn't an assisted suicide but plain murder. When there's mitigating circumstances the law is happy with a suspended sentence, it's unlikely the person will ever do anything wrong again and the law is seen to be done.

 

[Sukerkin]

I was going to stay clear of this thread but I will just make a small attempt at contributing.

My first thought is that we should not make light of the motivations that drive people to surrender their lives.

Of late I have found myself contemplating this matter a great deal for, barring some miracle, my wife is terminally ill with cancer. It might come to the point where it is kinder to let her go than to force her to endure what is happening - I don't know yet what the progress of the disease will bring, I am just speculating as to what could be based on the misery she is in now.

Similarly, on the flip side, if she goes then there is nothing here really to hold me to this somewhat vile world; she has been the light that has kept me going, ignoring the darkness, for a decade. Is it (suicide) a cowards way out, Ballen? Truly I do not know. I do know that, without her, it all seems rather pointless. Would that be enough to take me to that cliff edge of decision? I can't yet say; I think perhaps not, for my parents still need me but I can see from my vantage point here why self-negating nihilism draws so many to it in bad times.

It's not something I have talked about much but, as a much younger man, I have once been on the brink, with a knife across my wrist. It was primarily only the thought of what it would do to those close to me turned me aside (that and how foolish it would be to waste a life that had hardly begun, for who knows what the future could hold). A further, close to home, example was when my brother-in-law could not cope with the strains of his relationship and the pressures of family life in hard times and 'opted out' when it all got too much. I might think he was wrong to do so but I am not him and, sad to say, a choice to end life is rather permanent with no chance to change your mind after the fact.

For some, the world is not a nurturing place and I would be slow to judge someone racked by pain or grief who chose to leave their travails behind. It is a somewhat Christian belief that suicide is sinful. In many cultures it is quite otherwise; the Japanese for one have a tradition of suicide as an honourable course when no other is open for resolution.

 

[ballen0351]

I was going to stay clear of this thread but I will just make a small attempt at contributing.

My first thought is that we should not make light of the motivations that drive people to surrender their lives.

Of late I have found myself contemplating this matter a great deal for, barring some miracle, my wife is terminally ill with cancer. It might come to the point where it is kinder to let her go than to force her to endure what is happening - I don't know yet what the progress of the disease will bring, I am just speculating as to what could be based on the misery she is in now.

I have been and will to pray that it never gets that bad.

Similarly, on the flip side, if she goes then there is nothing here really to hold me to this somewhat vile world; she has been the light that has kept me going, ignoring the darkness, for a decade. Is it (suicide) a cowards way out, Ballen?

I dont think every case of suicde is a cowards way out. My comment was directed at the man that could not do iit and forced me to do it and forcing me to live with it the rest of my life. My rational brain knows it was not my fault but Im still bothered by it. Which is another reasonI dont want just any regular doc being nvlved in this process Taking a life no matter how justified is a hard thing to deal with. Even more so when your up close and personal with the person you see the results of your actions and in my case are involved in an investigation of the action.

Truly I do not know. I do know that, without her, it all seems rather pointless. Would that be enough to take me to that cliff edge of decision? I can't yet say; I think perhaps not, for my parents still need me but I can see from my vantage point here why self-negating nihilism draws so many to it in bad times.

It's not something I have talked about much but, as a much younger man, I have once been on the brink, with a knife across my wrist. It was primarily only the thought of what it would do to those close to me turned me aside (that and how foolish it would be to waste a life that had hardly begun, for who knows what the future could hold). A further, close to home, example was when my brother-in-law could not cope with the strains of his relationship and the pressures of family life in hard times and 'opted out' when it all got too much. I might think he was wrong to do so but I am not him and, sad to say, a choice to end life is rather permanent with no chance to change your mind after the fact.

For some, the world is not a nurturing place and I would be slow to judge someone racked by pain or grief who chose to leave their travails behind. It is a somewhat Christian belief that suicide is sinful. In many cultures it is quite otherwise; the Japanese for one have a tradition of suicide as an honourable course when no other is open for resolution.

This is where my faith guides me my lfe was a gift and its not my place to decide when its over. BUT I would not put my faith on others and hold them to my standard. Everyone has their own walk to make. My life has shown me the worst life has to offer. I spent my Wed night from 1 am to about 6 am at the local landfill looking for the body of a 2 year old that was murdered by her mother ( they found her body this morning thankfully I wasnt there for it). I have also seen the amazing side of life. I got home from the landfill showerd and then played with my 3 year old took him to the YMCA and we went swimming and he gave me shuch a big hug and kiss and said he loved me for ever and ever. It gets no better then that. As I saiid iits not my place to tell you what to do but I can say there are people that do care about you and your death would effect. We never know what tomorrow will bring and even when the day seems to be at its worse like digging in a dump is 20 deg weather earching for the body of a dead little girl it can and usually will get better. I pray your dark day never comes but if it does I hope your able to find peace with whatever you decide.