When Crime Pays; Litterally: Prison 101

[celtic_crippler]

http://www.npr.org/2013/02/01/169732840/when-crime-pays-prison-can-teach-some-to-be-better-criminals

"Spending time in prison leads to increased criminal earnings," Hutcherson says. "On average, a person can make roughly $11,000 more [illegally] from spending time in prison versus a person who does not spend time in prison."

Guess it actually pays to get caught early on.

I wonder how much of this our society has created and how much happens "naturally"?

I don't think prisons were intended to make better criminals... perhaps examining "Victimless Crimes" would be a good place to start?

Opinions? Ideas? Comments?

 

[ballen0351]

Prison is college for criminals. They learn what works to not get caught and what doesn't work. They network with other criminals making contacts for when they get out. They get to compare notes with other criminals and learn how to be a better criminal.

 

[celtic_crippler]

But... what about rehabilitation?

 

[ballen0351]

But... what about rehabilitation?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah OK

 

[Sukerkin]

It's not cost effective, CC. At least not by the measures normally chosen by governments agencies when gathering statistics. I do fear that they miss out a lot of 'hidden' costs when such calculations are made. When I was young I was much more heavily in favour of rehabilitation rather than punishment, for it seemed to make moral sense to turn someone from a life of crime. As I got older I began to favour retribution as a mode of justice as I fell foul of the actions of criminals after leaving the nest of 'home'.

Now, older still, I am leaning back towards rehabilitation for those that can be 'saved' ... and 'harder' time for the rest to save tax money that would otherwise be wasted (that includes execution for the truly dangerous).

 

[ballen0351]

Part of the problem when talking about Prison is by the time your actually sent to an actual prison your a career criminal. At least here of your sentenced to anything under 18 months you stay in a local county detention center. So unless you start your first crime out with a bang chances are your first few arrests you will do local time and not sent to a prison. So it takes several arrests before your sent to prison by that time rehabilitation is not really an option anymore your too far gone.

 

[Tez3]

Part of the problem we have here and I don't know if it's the same in the States we often have the wrong people in prison. Since a previous government decided mentally ill people should be cared for in the community rather than in secure hosptials we have had many of them locked up in prison instead, prison officers spend a lot of time having to look after severely mentally ill people instead of their proper job. We also have people sent to prison for things like non payment of fines, admittedly one needs a deterent but this could be sorted by simply taking their goods as would happen with any other debtor, that and community service. We also have a lot of alcoholics and drug addicts driven by their needs to commit crimes, rather than rehab they are sent to prison. Sort these out and there will be room in prison for the criminal cases and perhaps a chance to rehabilitate those who can be and usefully employ those who can't. Certainly a major shake up is needed.
It's long been known that paedophiles will cluster together in prisons to feed their sick imaginations by swapping stories and fantasies, them I would have in solitary I'm afraid. Actually what I'd do to them is far worst but not for the faint hearted. Solitary will have to do, they have to be separated anyway form the rest which actually costs more and uses more of prison officers time, just don't let them congregate together.

 

[MJS]

http://www.npr.org/2013/02/01/169732840/when-crime-pays-prison-can-teach-some-to-be-better-criminals



Guess it actually pays to get caught early on.

I wonder how much of this our society has created and how much happens "naturally"?

I don't think prisons were intended to make better criminals... perhaps examining "Victimless Crimes" would be a good place to start?

Opinions? Ideas? Comments?

If the author of that article honestly thinks this is anything new, they're crazy. As ballen said, prison is a training ground. It's not a rehab facility, and odds are high that only a very small percentage would actually let the rehab work. The vast majority simply become better criminals.

 

[celtic_crippler]

If the author of that article honestly thinks this is anything new, they're crazy. As ballen said, prison is a training ground. It's not a rehab facility, and odds are high that only a very small percentage would actually let the rehab work. The vast majority simply become better criminals.

I don't believe the assertion was that this was "anything new". But after in-depth study they are now able to show how much more young criminals can earn {illegally} after being mentored. I believe it was like $11k more annually.

And to Sukurkin's point, I feel our justice system is extremely lop-sided in doling out sentences which in part determines where "criminals" serve their time.

For example, sex offenders have the highest rate of any repeat offenders, yet often do less time than someone convicted of a "victimless crime".

People respond to whatever's put in front of their faces and in turn pressure government to "get tougher" on certain issues while overlooking others. Ironically, it's the government that brings attention to said issues so that the media in turn puts it front of the people's faces. Makes your head swim, don't it? LOL

So we have lop-sided sentencing and whacked-out laws that don't work; in short, a severely broken judicial system.

At one time certain property crimes could get you a death sentence. I wonder if there's any data out there showing if more severe penalties curtail certain crimes? It doesn't seem to impact some... okay, I'm just rambling now... sorry

 

[cdunn]

http://www.npr.org/2013/02/01/169732840/when-crime-pays-prison-can-teach-some-to-be-better-criminals



Guess it actually pays to get caught early on.

I wonder how much of this our society has created and how much happens "naturally"?

I don't think prisons were intended to make better criminals... perhaps examining "Victimless Crimes" would be a good place to start?

Opinions? Ideas? Comments?

Storing people in privately owned prison is a $74 billion dollar industry. Here in PA, we had a pair of judges accept approximately $2,600,000 from a prison owner to jail kids for minimal offenses. So; who's really making the money?

Perhaps the place to start is the start; decriminalize drug use, establish anti-addiction efforts, establish and invest in the kinds of social programs that get kids, especially poor ones, involved positively in their community and provide positive reinforcement for the idea that labor is available and carries a reward.

Follow that up by murdering the for-profit prison industry. Make it illegal to privatize - the corner cutting in a private system that goes on does not help. Appoint criminal judges rather than elect them; do not make the appearance of being 'harsh on crime' electorally relevant for them. Reface punishment of property crimes to center around restitution to the victim. Save prison for violent offenders and take the incentive to bribe harsher and harsher penalties out of legislation away from corporations. For non-violent offenders, get them into labor programs where it's appropriate. Get them busy and productive and understanding that there's repercussions for what they did that extend beyond themselves. For the violent offender; well, I don't know. Meaningful attempts at rehabilitation need to be made in addition to punishment. What works, I don't know. But the American Vengeance system isn't working as a solution to any of society's problems, and it needs reworked.

 

[MJS]

I don't believe the assertion was that this was "anything new". But after in-depth study they are now able to show how much more young criminals can earn {illegally} after being mentored. I believe it was like $11k more annually.

Ah...ok. Yeah, it must be nice (not really) to be a dirtbag criminal, possibly have no job, and still make 11k. And if you have no place to live, all they have to do is do something to warrant getting locked up for a while, and we all know what they get...3 squares, and a cot.

And to Sukurkin's point, I feel our justice system is extremely lop-sided in doling out sentences which in part determines where "criminals" serve their time.

For example, sex offenders have the highest rate of any repeat offenders, yet often do less time than someone convicted of a "victimless crime".

Agreed.

People respond to whatever's put in front of their faces and in turn pressure government to "get tougher" on certain issues while overlooking others. Ironically, it's the government that brings attention to said issues so that the media in turn puts it front of the people's faces. Makes your head swim, don't it? LOL

So we have lop-sided sentencing and whacked-out laws that don't work; in short, a severely broken judicial system.

At one time certain property crimes could get you a death sentence. I wonder if there's any data out there showing if more severe penalties curtail certain crimes? It doesn't seem to impact some... okay, I'm just rambling now... sorry

I dont think you're rambling. I think that the system is very messed up. Sadly, I don't see anything being done about it, in the near future.

 

[Tez3]

Our justice system works well enough right up to the point that judges and magistrates sentence people, then it goes to pot. Judges who have no idea of real life and very rarely having much of an idea outside their rareified world make the police here despair. Criminals are caught, evidence presented, jury find guilty then the judge says well that's not so bad and lets them off with a light sentence. However if the crime involves property or money well, off with their heads! Sentences shouldn't be down to the discretion of judges and magistrates, single handedly some of these people manage to make a mockery of the law.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't believe the assertion was that this was "anything new". But after in-depth study they are now able to show how much more young criminals can earn {illegally} after being mentored. I believe it was like $11k more annually.

Even the in-depth study is not knew we discussed this in College in the Criminal Justice course I took and that was a long LONG time ago. However I believe the dollar amount has gotten larger but I guess you can thank inflation for that. Rehab or not depends on the population a person is thrown into and that is generally dependent on the Crime committed but that is not always the case. Minor offenses can get a person in contact with those that my "help" them with a "career choice"

 

[celtic_crippler]

Even the in-depth study is not knew we discussed this in College in the Criminal Justice course I took and that was a long LONG time ago. However I believe the dollar amount has gotten larger but I guess you can thank inflation for that. Rehab or not depends on the population a person is thrown into and that is generally dependent on the Crime committed but that is not always the case. Minor offenses can get a person in contact with those that my "help" them with a "career choice"

How would you propose keeping them separate?

I've seen where some prisons make the inmates where different colored jumpsuits to identify gang members from others as well as if they have a history of violence or disciplinary issues in other jails/prisons... perhaps restrict them based on this to certain cell blocks?

 

[Xue Sheng]

How would you propose keeping them separate?

I've seen where some prisons make the inmates where different colored jumpsuits to identify gang members from others as well as if they have a history of violence or disciplinary issues in other jails/prisons... perhaps restrict them based on this to certain cell blocks?

I truly have no idea where to start. The last prison I was in (on a tour not as an inmate) had pretty much only 3 groups they kept apart. There was a group that if in population the population would be a danger to them, the group that if in population they were a danger to the population and then everyone else.

I guess to start do what you can to keep felons and those of lessor crimes, but then there are higher and lower degrees of felony too and some of the lower really should not be around he higher. but good luck with that one in an already over crowded system which I guess leaves you with Cell Block as you suggested.

 

[cdunn]

How would you propose keeping them separate?

I've seen where some prisons make the inmates where different colored jumpsuits to identify gang members from others as well as if they have a history of violence or disciplinary issues in other jails/prisons... perhaps restrict them based on this to certain cell blocks?

Cell blocks... or entirely seperate prisons. You have to be willing to deal with the fact that it's going to cost money, though. Or be barbaric about it.

 

[MJS]

Inmates on death row are isolated from the regular population. Furthermore, they're locked down 23 out of 24hrs a day. The jail that I worked at (Ct has 3 jails which are all pre-sentence facilities) had various floors. Some of the floors were for juv., another was for those with mental health issues. There were a few dorms, which contained inmates that were there for smaller, non violent offenses.

 

[oftheherd1]

I did some small amount of confinement work while in the military. I noticed several things: Those confined never seemed to be guilty. Some were repeat offenders. Of the very, very, very few that realized they had screwed up, but wanted to earn a second chance, most could be helped. The US Disciplinary Barracks (the then military equivalent to a penitentary) at that time had decided they could rehabilitate all but the worst offenders and return them to active duty, thereby saving the military lots of money. We often had family, especially parents, who when they came to visit made sure to admonish us to make sure the inmate was made to tow the line.

Conclusions on my part: If you can't admit you are wrong, there is nothing to be rehabilitated from, so all attempts to make that work are useless.

We had one poor sot who just wanted out of the Army. Any AWOL over 30 days was, by definition, desertion. We got him three times before I left that facility, after court martial for him, for desertion, because he just wanted out. At least most of the military will process a misfit out pretty quickly now. We did have one at each of the two institutions I worked at who came in admitting their wrong, and desire to get back into the Army as a productive soldier. I think both made it.

We always listened to the parents, but I always believed that if by the time the person had been a puke for 18 years (that old to get in the military), the usually six to twelve months we had them wasn't going to change them. And if the parent had spent any quality time making them do right, we wouldn't be wondering how to do so. Of course, we did make them adhear to certain disciplinary standards. Violations were subject to in-house sanctions, or if serious enough, to another court-martial.

So to those of you who favor rehabilitation, trust me, I am all for it. I just have yet to see anything that works unless the convict buys into it. Normally they don't. They lived a certain life style for a long time before being incarcerated. They don't want to change, except to get better at crime and earn more money. Think about it, how long do you suppose it would take me to get most of the members of MT to embrace wholeheartedly a life of crime as opposed to the moral life (at least I hope so) they are living now?

The thing that I think would work best is that it should be a sufficiently unhappy place, that people would think twice about doing things that will get them sent there, and for long times. There should be no such thing as lack of TV being cruel and unusual punishment. Nothing on their arrival should be a given, everything must be earned; from getting books, to TV, and time in the yard with other than those others who haven't yet earned priviliges. To me that would be the best way to rehabilitate; no free lunch, everything must be earned.

That is the way it is for us, it should be no less for them, and hopefully they will embrace that life style. If they don't, life in prison will be less fun, and they will return for a new chance at change sooner than later.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Let's re-examine the OP for a second and address what "crime" one can actually make money from.

Property crime comes to mind. One can sell off items that are stolen.

Drug crime also comes to mind. The sell of drugs is the top revenue earner for gangs.

Illegal gambling?

Prostitution?

Interesting... A Sesame Street song just popped into my head, "One of these things is not like the others...." I'll have to ponder on that further...