Assisted Suicide

[MJS]

http://www.courant.com/news/breaking/hc-assisted-suicide-0206-20130205,0,7008818.story

HARTFORD – Douglas Peary says he became a believer in laws allowing the terminally ill to obtain a doctor's prescription for a lethal dose of medication after three family members died from complications of cancer.
"I watched my father die of prostate cancer [that] spread to his bones for months on end with pain so great he that had to be drugged to oblivion," said Peary, who is 70 and lives in North Haven. "He looked like a concentration camp victim."
He recounted the equally heartrending end-of-life suffering endured by his wife and his sister. "These things have to stop,'' Peary said. "There's no good God that would ever expect us not to help these people.''

Thoughts?

 

[Instructor]

If I am in that fix....put me down.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I find it fascinating that some would not extend the same courtesy, respect, and compassion to their fellow human beings that they extend to other animals. What compassion or value for life is there in cruelly keeping a person who is suffering, with no hope of improvement, alive? I have never understood the reasoning behind that...

That being said...

IMHO, this is yet another example of government overstepping it's bounds. They should have absolutely no say as to what an individual decides to do with their body. Your body is yours; it's the first thing you ever own and in some cases the only thing.

If you truely believe in the sovereignty of the individual then you believe that nobody has any say in what you do with your body; including if you want to kill it.

Ponder this: How is allowing a government to legislate what you can and can not do with your body any different from any other form of slavery?

 

[MJS]

I'm split...at the moment, on this. Hey, when I'm 80, and I'm having issues, such as this (I pray to God I don't) I'd probably want to die too, if I was in pain, couldn't function like a normal person, etc. Then again, I've heard of inmates on death row, who want to forget about their appeal process, and just want to die. Holy ****...look out! The inmates lawyers are now fighting for his right to live, tests are ordered on the guys mental health. Yet, we can have someone with cancer, say they want to make the end come quicker.

My opinion currently is subject to change, of course, depending on the comments others put here, but for now, I'm still split. I would say that if this is passed, that the specifications for doing it, are met. Ex: Does the person live in pain? Is there no cure? What is their current mental state? Are they capable of making these decisions on their own? If a family member is their care giver, what are their thoughts on this process?

 

[MJS]

I find it fascinating that some would not extend the same courtesy, respect, and compassion to their fellow human beings that they extend to other animals. What compassion or value for life is there in cruelly keeping a person who is suffering, with no hope of improvement, alive? I have never understood the reasoning behind that...

That being said...

IMHO, this is yet another example of government overstepping it's bounds. They should have absolutely no say as to what an individual decides to do with their body. Your body is yours; it's the first thing you ever own and in some cases the only thing.

If you truely believe in the sovereignty of the individual then you believe that nobody has any say in what you do with your body; including if you want to kill it.

Ponder this: How is allowing a government to legislate what you can and can not do with your body any different from any other form of slavery?

This deserves some rep! Good point about the animals. They're (at least for me) like part of my fmaily. I don't just consider them a pet, but a family member. For me, I'd do whatever I had to do, to give them the necessary care, however, in reality, as of yet, there is no 'magic pill' out there and sometimes, making the decision to put them down, is the best one.

 

[Tez3]

I think what authorities are worried about is that there may be coercion/pressure from relatives or even plain murder committed. If a way is found to ensure that someone is not under pressure and is doing it of their own free will there should be nothing to stop people from choosing what they want to do.

 

[celtic_crippler]

The government should be involved in that decision at all.

Everyone should have a Living Will, written and notorized while they are of "sound mind", that dictates their wishes in certain conditions. Mine specifically states, "Do Not Resucitate." I don't want to wake up with brain damage or worse and have my quality of life effected.

And perhaps that's where some differ? Quality vs Quantity?

I'd rather have 50 good quality years of life than have 70 where the last 20 years are lived in agony or just plain suck for other reasons.

 

[Tez3]

I have a living will, had it a long time however that doesn't negate the possibility of pressure to do away with yourself which is where you will find the authorities poking their noses in. I don't know how you would safeguard those who don't actually want to be shuffled off this mortal coil against their will. There's no reason though why those who decide to end their lives and are content with their decision should be stopped. We just need a safeguard for those who are likely to be pressured. If medical care costs were mounting up and leaving my family in financial straits I'd be more than tempted to take the suicide route to save them. I'm all for free will in this case but I'd like to see safeguards for those that need them.

 

[cdunn]

I find it fascinating that some would not extend the same courtesy, respect, and compassion to their fellow human beings that they extend to other animals. What compassion or value for life is there in cruelly keeping a person who is suffering, with no hope of improvement, alive? I have never understood the reasoning behind that...

Postulate:
A: There is a soul.
B: Miracles happen, including unlikely recoveries.
C: There is an afterlife in which we are rewarded according to our sins.
D: Suicide is a sin for which the eternal reward is 'to be transformed into gnarled bushes and gnawed upon by harpies, and to be denied corporeal resurrection in the second coming, for they have voluntarily discared their mortal forms'.

If these postulates are true, then under what morality can you permit anyone to commit suicide?

 

[celtic_crippler]

Postulate:
A: There is a soul.
B: Miracles happen, including unlikely recoveries.
C: There is an afterlife in which we are rewarded according to our sins.
D: Suicide is a sin for which the eternal reward is 'to be transformed into gnarled bushes and gnawed upon by harpies, and to be denied corporeal resurrection in the second coming, for they have voluntarily discared their mortal forms'.

If these postulates are true, then under what morality can you permit anyone to commit suicide?

What makes you think you have the right to force your religious beliefs on others?

Under what morality do think you have the right to dictate to me what I do with my own body? There is none.

You want me to respect your beliefs? You also have to respect mine. What I do with my body has absolutely no impact on you and therefore you have no say in the matter.

Thanks for wanting to "save my soul", but what I do on this world is between me and whatever God or gods I choose to follow. You do not factor into that equation.

And since I've been on a Heinlein kick lately, postulate this: “Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense.”

As I stated earlier, It boggles the mind how some people would not extend the same compassion to their fellow human beings that they extend to other animals.

 

[Tez3]

Postulate:
A: There is a soul.
B: Miracles happen, including unlikely recoveries.
C: There is an afterlife in which we are rewarded according to our sins.
D: Suicide is a sin for which the eternal reward is 'to be transformed into gnarled bushes and gnawed upon by harpies, and to be denied corporeal resurrection in the second coming, for they have voluntarily discared their mortal forms'.

If these postulates are true, then under what morality can you permit anyone to commit suicide?

I'm assuming this is a Xtian thing? If so I can tell you that as a Jew Jesus wouldn't have believed this so I'm thinking there is little reason for anyone else to, still, free will is given. No one is permitting anyone to kill themself, we have no rights over others in this respect. I would, if I can, stop someone from murdering another, morality tells me I am correct to do that. I would hope and pray that people weren't in a situation where they felt they had to kill themselves, I would do my best to see if there was a way to make it possible for them not to make that decision but ultimately it is a violation of their free will and individuality to prevent them. Would I help? I don't know but I'd respect their decision.
In other circumstances where someone is not in their right mind one should prevent them if possible from killing themselves but even then it's not always possible and one has to accept that sometimes there's nothing one can do. In none of these circumstances would they be consigned to some sort of primitive hell, the G-d I know wouldn't make people who have suffered in life also suffer in death. As for harpies........ well what a load of boolcks.


There is not one person who has posted here who is favour of suicide, there's not one of us who would not go around the world twice if it meant we could take away dreadful pain and suffering for our loved ones but sometimes we have to realise there is nothing that will help and we have to accept that the only thing to do is that they have a quiet and dignified death. Twenty years ago my brother was in that postition, he was terminally ill, suffering trrribly, nothing helped except more and more morphine, it was harrowing for my parents, it literally broke my mother's heart she died from a heart attack a couple of years later. He died quietly and at peace because he was given a larger dose of morphine than possibly was necessary at that point ( not adding more for legal reasons). I still miss him and I still cry for him but I know that it was the best thing that could happen. he wasn't going to survive, he was just dying slowly and painfully as evry organ slowly died. I wish it hadn't been that way but don't tell me that he should have had his agony prolonged to satisfy your religious beliefs because if you do you will get back such a blistering mouthful that will probably have me banned off here.

 

[cdunn]

What makes you think you have the right to force your religious beliefs on others?

Under what morality do think you have the right to dictate to me what I do with my own body? There is none.

You want me to respect your beliefs? You also have to respect mine. What I do with my body has absolutely no impact on you and therefore you have no say in the matter.

Thanks for wanting to "save my soul", but what I do on this world is between me and whatever God or gods I choose to follow. You do not factor into that equation.

And since I've been on a Heinlein kick lately, postulate this: “Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense.”

As I stated earlier, It boggles the mind how some people would not extend the same compassion to their fellow human beings that they extend to other animals.

I'm assuming this is a Xtian thing? If so I can tell you that as a Jew Jesus wouldn't have believed this so I'm thinking there is little reason for anyone else to, still, free will is given. No one is permitting anyone to kill themself, we have no rights over others in this respect. I would, if I can, stop someone from murdering another, morality tells me I am correct to do that. I would hope and pray that people weren't in a situation where they felt they had to kill themselves, I would do my best to see if there was a way to make it possible for them not to make that decision but ultimately it is a violation of their free will and individuality to prevent them. Would I help? I don't know but I'd respect their decision.
In other circumstances where someone is not in their right mind one should prevent them if possible from killing themselves but even then it's not always possible and one has to accept that sometimes there's nothing one can do. In none of these circumstances would they be consigned to some sort of primitive hell, the G-d I know wouldn't make people who have suffered in life also suffer in death. As for harpies........ well what a load of boolcks.


There is not one person who has posted here who is favour of suicide, there's not one of us who would not go around the world twice if it meant we could take away dreadful pain and suffering for our loved ones but sometimes we have to realise there is nothing that will help and we have to accept that the only thing to do is that they have a quiet and dignified death. Twenty years ago my brother was in that postition, he was terminally ill, suffering trrribly, nothing helped except more and more morphine, it was harrowing for my parents, it literally broke my mother's heart she died from a heart attack a couple of years later. He died quietly and at peace because he was given a larger dose of morphine than possibly was necessary at that point ( not adding more for legal reasons). I still miss him and I still cry for him but I know that it was the best thing that could happen. he wasn't going to survive, he was just dying slowly and painfully as evry organ slowly died. I wish it hadn't been that way but don't tell me that he should have had his agony prolonged to satisfy your religious beliefs because if you do you will get back such a blistering mouthful that will probably have me banned off here.

For the record, I believe medical suicide should be legal - and in some cases, out right euthanasia. My younger brother was born missing two chambers of his heart; at the time, surgical correction was quite unknown. He spent three days strangling to death in an oxygen tent in a Catholic hospital.

I also think posulates A, B, C, and D are entirely crap. What they do, however, is provide a logical framework in which we can justify needless suffering in this life, because we expect it to lead to something better in this life. The framework also extends into this: Your life, and your body, do NOT belong to you, they belong to this God, and the authority he has placed over you in this life has the divine right to tell you you can't snuff yourself. This -is- an extension of that same compassion; a short suffering for much longer peace; your world-view just has to be sufficently twisted at its foundation to get there.

We are double-programmed, once socially, through assorted religions(with that specific chain being Christian, yes), and once biologically to abhor the notion of self-destruction. Biologically, a creature that self destructs before its progeny is suffiently mature to eventually reproduce is extinct, and a religion that encourages suicide is also extinct - There are no more members of the People's Temple cult. It is no surprise that, when powerful ideologies or strong and lasting experience do not carve out exceptions; a general miasma of disapproval of suicide will boil up and obscure the realities of suffering humans.

 

[ballen0351]

Im not sure Doctors should be involved in the process since they are supposed to save lives not take them. But you want to kill yourself I don't care. I think its the cowards way out and I would never do it but whatever.
For the supporters here where do you draw a line? Who is allowed to do it and whos not. An elderly person with Cancer is ok by what I see but what about a 20 yr old that wants to die because he was burned and is now disfigured? How do you decide who can and cant or is it open to anyone for any reason you just go to the doc and say hey I wanna die give me a prescription

 

[celtic_crippler]

Im not sure Doctors should be involved in the process since they are supposed to save lives not take them. But you want to kill yourself I don't care. I think its the cowards way out and I would never do it but whatever.
For the supporters here where do you draw a line? Who is allowed to do it and whos not. An elderly person with Cancer is ok by what I see but what about a 20 yr old that wants to die because he was burned and is now disfigured? How do you decide who can and cant or is it open to anyone for any reason you just go to the doc and say hey I wanna die give me a prescription

It's not for me to decide what a person does with their body. It's theirs.

 

[Tez3]

For the record, I believe medical suicide should be legal - and in some cases, out right euthanasia. My younger brother was born missing two chambers of his heart; at the time, surgical correction was quite unknown. He spent three days strangling to death in an oxygen tent in a Catholic hospital.

I also think posulates A, B, C, and D are entirely crap. What they do, however, is provide a logical framework in which we can justify needless suffering in this life, because we expect it to lead to something better in this life. The framework also extends into this: Your life, and your body, do NOT belong to you, they belong to this God, and the authority he has placed over you in this life has the divine right to tell you you can't snuff yourself. This -is- an extension of that same compassion; a short suffering for much longer peace; your world-view just has to be sufficently twisted at its foundation to get there.

We are double-programmed, once socially, through assorted religions(with that specific chain being Christian, yes), and once biologically to abhor the notion of self-destruction. Biologically, a creature that self destructs before its progeny is suffiently mature to eventually reproduce is extinct, and a religion that encourages suicide is also extinct - There are no more members of the People's Temple cult. It is no surprise that, when powerful ideologies or strong and lasting experience do not carve out exceptions; a general miasma of disapproval of suicide will boil up and obscure the realities of suffering humans.

What's the 'we' bit? You yes, me no.

I don't think you are sufficiently qualified to tell anyone what they believe in nor what they should believe in. I imagine potential suicide bombers may question your theories as well.

 

[ballen0351]

It's not for me to decide what a person does with their body. It's theirs.

So make it legal no questions asked?

 

[Sukerkin]

I am staying out of this one, as fascinating a discussion of the moral entanglements as it is. Real life events have meant that this topic is something that has been on my mind of late and my emotions are too high to be objective or balanced about it.

I'll just say that, for those that need it, it is not an evil but paving the legal foundations for it is fraught with dangers.

 

[Tez3]

There are some things that just can't always be discussed rationally and without emotion.

 

[celtic_crippler]

So make it legal no questions asked?

Do you want me telling you what to do with your body? What if I decided everyone must be hairless? Completely... now go get that Brazillian or you'll suffer a tax penalty.

I am staying out of this one, as fascinating a discussion of the moral entanglements as it is. Real life events have meant that this topic is something that has been on my mind of late and my emotions are too high to be objective or balanced about it.

I'll just say that, for those that need it, it is not an evil but paving the legal foundations for it is fraught with dangers.

Exactly.

Stay out of it. It's a very personal issue and for the individual to decide.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Postulate:
A: There is a soul.
B: Miracles happen, including unlikely recoveries.
C: There is an afterlife in which we are rewarded according to our sins.
D: Suicide is a sin for which the eternal reward is 'to be transformed into gnarled bushes and gnawed upon by harpies, and to be denied corporeal resurrection in the second coming, for they have voluntarily discared their mortal forms'.

If these postulates are true, then under what morality can you permit anyone to commit suicide?

Because you don't have any right to force others to live according to your religious postulates.