Article 8 Time/Age limits POOM/DAN

[andyjeffries]

Personally I think that Kukkiwon standards for minimum promotion time are far too short, far shorter than just about any other martial art.

And to be honest, I don't think it matters how they compare to other martial arts. Also bear in mind that they are minimum promotion times. Not everyone tests "on time". To be honest, at our club (under our previous instructor) we've gone the other way, I have students who have been a first dan for 10+ years. I'm trying to change everyone's mindset to focussing on a goal (next promotion, competitions, etc) and working towards it. So if a 1st Dan has a minimum wait of 1 year for KKW 2nd Dan, we actively work over that year to be ready for it. Some may make it, some may need more time, but it's better that than treading water for years, improving slowly.

Only with regular performance checkpoints (gradings are a good one) do students truly achieve the peaks and troughs of performance improvement. When training up for something your skill level increases.

After 1 year of being a 1st Dan students barely understand what it is to be a black belt let alone be anywhere near ready to go up a Dan.

This is the crux of it though - what does it mean to be a 1st Dan? You seem to come from the "it's a mythical level somewhere crossed between ninja-assassin, shaolin monk and perfect-man" school of thought. Personally I think 1st Dan means little more than "now you can do the basics, well enough that you should be able to improve faults/learn new skills in a self-motivated way without needing telling over and over again".

To give you a little perspective in the Rhee Tae Kwon Do system that I study (which is a martial art of self defence not a sport in any way) we only have one junior black belt rank which has only been around for the last 15 years or so. After that the junior black belt must then grade for his or her 1st Dan when Master Rhee decides that he or she is mature enough, both mentally and physically to compare to the adults. It is more about attitude, maturity and technique than age, some junior black belts do not get promoted to 1st Dan until their 20's and the youngest ever 1st Dan was only 13, but he was unusually tall for his age, had the right mental attitude and could do everything the adults could do but that was an extremely rare case.

This still comes from a different thinking of what a (junior/senior) black belt means.

After being a 1st Dan, typically for a few years, you can become an instructor and only after then could you be considered for promotion beyond 1st Dan. To go from 1st to 2nd Dan usually requires at least 15 years of training, teaching and promoting the art but can be much longer. 2nd to 3rd Dan is usually after about 5 or 6 more years and you will not find any 4th dan Regional Master instructors in Western Australia who have had less than 30 years of experience.

I have two questions for you based on this. Bearing in mind that your gradings seem to be much slower than other Taekwondo groups.

1) Do your people not feel slighted when others ask what grade your people are after 30 years in the sport and your guys respond with a much lower dan rank than most other people?

2) What grade does Master Rhee allow his black belts to promote others to kup ranks, and at what point to promote others to black belt?

BJJ has one of the longest time in grades amongst the martial arts. For example, it's commonly quoted that black belt takes an average of 10 years. However, people can open their own clubs at purple belt (sometimes even blue belt if their black belt instructor allows them) which commonly takes 4-5 years (which is comparable I'd say to the average Taekwondo 1st Dan, outside of Korea). When they reach black belt, they can promote others (which is comparable to a 4th Dan in Kukki-Taekwondo which takes about the same amount of time).

So, your club has much longer timescales than BJJ, which if you like it - great. I'm happy for you that you like what you're doing.

But, if I'm being honest, if someone that tells me they've been training for 30 years and are only a 4th Dan - my immediate thoughts would be "did you take a long break in the middle?" or "why so slow to grade, were they not very good or were they lazy?". I'm sure your guys aren't these things (now I understand that your association just has really long wait times), but those would be my first thoughts when told they were a 30-year training 4th Dan. I would expect 30-year training black belts to be 5th or more likely 6th Dan.

Cheers,


Andy

 

[chrispillertkd]

And to be honest, I don't think it matters how they compare to other martial arts. Also bear in mind that they are minimum promotion times. Not everyone tests "on time". To be honest, at our club (under our previous instructor) we've gone the other way, I have students who have been a first dan for 10+ years. I'm trying to change everyone's mindset to focussing on a goal (next promotion, competitions, etc) and working towards it. So if a 1st Dan has a minimum wait of 1 year for KKW 2nd Dan, we actively work over that year to be ready for it. Some may make it, some may need more time, but it's better that than treading water for years, improving slowly.

I don't know about "treading water for years." It certainly isn't inherent in having a longer waiting period between ranks. My instructors also have us wait a minimum of years for the dan level we're going for next (so we have a minimum of two year of regular training from our first dan test before we're eligible to test for second dan, for example). Students still have to show up and train on a regular basis. They have to become proficient in the material they learn at first dan. There's no "treading water" since you get quite a bit of new material at each dan level. If you take time off or simply have a hard time getting the new material down it takes longer than the minimum time requirements (which are just that, minimums).

Also, the increasing time between tests is a good tool to teach people to set long term goals, develop patience and perserevernce instead of always needing instant gratification (since gup tests tend to be set a few months apart, on average). A wait of two years from first to second dan is about right. I've not seen a student who has made the adjustment from first to second dan ever complain that the wait from second to third dan is too long, for instance, though I have seen students complain that waiting 3 or 4 months between gup levels was interminable. It's a matter of maturing.

Only with regular performance checkpoints (gradings are a good one) do students truly achieve the peaks and troughs of performance improvement. When training up for something your skill level increases.

Well, maybe. You still are training for something when the required time periods are longer than those the KKW sets, after all. But the KKW still has increasing minimum waiting periods between dan ranks, I believe. Which means now you're just saying that, for instance, a wait of one year to get to second dan is fine, but a wait of two years is not.

This is the crux of it though - what does it mean to be a 1st Dan? You seem to come from the "it's a mythical level somewhere crossed between ninja-assassin, shaolin monk and perfect-man" school of thought. Personally I think 1st Dan means little more than "now you can do the basics, well enough that you should be able to improve faults/learn new skills in a self-motivated way without needing telling over and over again".

There's nothing that I've seen in RTKDCMB's posts that indicate he thinks a first dan is a "mystical level somewhere crossed between ninja-assassin, shaolin monk and perfect man." That's just hyperbole on your part.

So, your club has much longer timescales than BJJ, which if you like it - great. I'm happy for you that you like what you're doing.

But, if I'm being honest, if someone that tells me they've been training for 30 years and are only a 4th Dan - my immediate thoughts would be "did you take a long break in the middle?" or "why so slow to grade, were they not very good or were they lazy?". I'm sure your guys aren't these things (now I understand that your association just has really long wait times), but those would be my first thoughts when told they were a 30-year training 4th Dan. I would expect 30-year training black belts to be 5th or more likely 6th Dan.

But this attitude is itself based, at least in part, on a different understanding of what a black belt means, I'd think. Which is exactly what you point out to RTKDCMB that he has compared to the KKW.

Andy, I assume you require your students to only train for one year before testing them to first dan? How common a practice is that in England?

Pax,

Chris

 

[andyjeffries]

I don't know about "treading water for years." It certainly isn't inherent in having a longer waiting period between ranks. My instructors also have us wait a minimum of years for the dan level we're going for next (so we have a minimum of two year of regular training from our first dan test before we're eligible to test for second dan, for example). Students still have to show up and train on a regular basis. They have to become proficient in the material they learn at first dan. There's no "treading water" since you get quite a bit of new material at each dan level. If you take time off or simply have a hard time getting the new material down it takes longer than the minimum time requirements (which are just that, minimums).

I have no issue with the above and even agree with it. My point is simply that 1st->2nd Dan isn't a big jump, it's from beginner black belt to "one-above-beginner" black belt

1 year, 2 years, is fine. 10 years is IMHO a crazy long time for such a low rank.

Also, the increasing time between tests is a good tool to teach people to set long term goals, develop patience and perserevernce instead of always needing instant gratification (since gup tests tend to be set a few months apart, on average). A wait of two years from first to second dan is about right. I've not seen a student who has made the adjustment from first to second dan ever complain that the wait from second to third dan is too long, for instance, though I have seen students complain that waiting 3 or 4 months between gup levels was interminable. It's a matter of maturing.

Well, maybe. You still are training for something when the required time periods are longer than those the KKW sets, after all. But the KKW still has increasing minimum waiting periods between dan ranks, I believe. Which means now you're just saying that, for instance, a wait of one year to get to second dan is fine, but a wait of two years is not.

I wasn't clear, sorry, I'm not arguing that one year is fine, two years is not, but that 1, 2 or 3 years is OK (although 3 is a bit long) for such a low rank transition, but 10 years is not. I'm also OK with increasing time in grade requirements as the grades increase.

Taking RTKDCMB's data:

Start - 2nd Dan = 15 years training time
2nd-3rd Dan = 21 years training time (+6 years from previous)
3rd-4th Dan = 30 years training time (+9 years from previous)

Assuming they got first dan at 20 years old (as most children who achieve junior black belt don't get 1st Dan until their 20s, from RTKDCMB's post) and extrapolating assuming increasing time requirements from there:

4th-5th Dan = 42 years (+12 years from previous) = 62 years old
5th-6th Dan = 57 years (+15 years from previous) = 77 years old

It makes me wonder if this is a way of keeping all your students at lower Dan ranks if they don't even get to be a kodanja until they're in their 70s?

There's nothing that I've seen in RTKDCMB's posts that indicate he thinks a first dan is a "mystical level somewhere crossed between ninja-assassin, shaolin monk and perfect man." That's just hyperbole on your part.

Indeed, hence my use of the phrases "You seem to come" and "school of thought". rather than stating it was a direct quote

But this attitude is itself based, at least in part, on a different understanding of what a black belt means, I'd think. Which is exactly what you point out to RTKDCMB that he has compared to the KKW.

I agree.

Andy, I assume you require your students to only train for one year before testing them to first dan? How common a practice is that in England?

Only require, yes, we grade in line with Kukkiwon requirements on rank. Gradings are performed by a National Dan Testing Panel of 6th Dan+ by our WTF MNA. This time limit is set out by our WTF MNA in their syllabus, so I'd imagine it's very common.

That's not to say that I require them to grade on that one year boundary, but if they don't have it in mind and working towards it, then it's all to easy to stagnante. I have quite a few 1st Dan students that haven't graded in 10 years. Admittedly I only took over the club a year ago (but I was the senior assistant instructor before then, so had some influence). I don't force them in to it, but I do remind them that they should be working towards it.

 

[chrispillertkd]

1 year, 2 years, is fine. 10 years is IMHO a crazy long time for such a low rank.

Well, I tend to agree with 10 years being excessive, under normal conditions. But I'm coming at things from an ITF perspective and you're looking at them from a KKW perspective. It may well be that Rhee Teakwon-Do views first dan as something different, or maybe they have a higher technical standard for their first dans. While we view first dan as one thing Rhee TKD may well view it as something else. From my perspective the KKW timetable is too short. From their perspective the ITF requirements are too long.

I wasn't clear, sorry, I'm not arguing that one year is fine, two years is not, but that 1, 2 or 3 years is OK (although 3 is a bit long) for such a low rank transition, but 10 years is not. I'm also OK with increasing time in grade requirements as the grades increase.

Taking RTKDCMB's data:

Start - 2nd Dan = 15 years training time
2nd-3rd Dan = 21 years training time (+6 years from previous)
3rd-4th Dan = 30 years training time (+9 years from previous)

Assuming they got first dan at 20 years old (as most children who achieve junior black belt don't get 1st Dan until their 20s, from RTKDCMB's post) and extrapolating assuming increasing time requirements from there:

4th-5th Dan = 42 years (+12 years from previous) = 62 years old
5th-6th Dan = 57 years (+15 years from previous) = 77 years old

I went back and reread this thread after seeing this. Ralph posted in an earier post the following:

"We wait 2 years from 1st to 2nd dan, 3 years from 2nd to 3rd, 4 years from 3rd to 4th etc."

Both Ralph and RTKDCMB are from Rhee TKD but if I am reading things correctly these are fairly disperate timelines. I do think Ralph's is more reasonable (from my view), even if it takes upwards of 10 years to make first dan. Maybe one or both of them can clarify.

It makes me wonder if this is a way of keeping all your students at lower Dan ranks if they don't even get to be a kodanja until they're in their 70s?

It's possible, though I try to give people the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. I have seen instructors deny students promotions that I would've thought were warranted, but they weren't my student so I didn't know the full story. I've also seen someone's paperwork get "held up" so they get promoted after another person. FWIW, and speaking from the other side, I am now the same rank as one of my instructors, which when I was told I should get ready to test I was quite reticent about it and told them both that. Their reply was, basically, "Yeah, that's nice of you. You're testing in six months." She's still my senior and always will be, though, even if I promote to sixth dan at some point (she hasn't promoted in a long time because of some long standing injuries although her knowledge of Taekwon-Do is phenomenal, as is her teaching ability). As a student, though, I don't really like wearing the same rank as her.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01#08


Thoughts on article 8?

Fast or Slow or Just Right!!!!

Its is my interpretation that a Martial Artist is eligible for promotion to 4th Dan @18 years of age as long as he received his 3rd Poom by the age of 15. If not then the minimum age requirement for 4th Dan is 21 years of age!!!

It is a 'this is as fast as you can go at this particular age' regulation. The Kukkiwon uses the black belt to denote a person who has learned the basics. That may not be everyone's perception of it, but it is the organizational standard. You can disagree with that standard. You can agree with that standard. So long as they're consistent in how they apply that standard, I don't really care.

As to whether that pacing is good or not greatly depends on the school. If you're teaching the core Kukkiwon curriculum and nothing more until after ildan, then the pacing and even the age minimums are fine.

If you're including a grappling and groundfighting program, hybridizing it with hapkido (I've seen that done), including a practical self defense program, and a weapon or two, or if you are one of those schools that utilizes forms additional to the Taegeuk pumsae, then you will need to progress your students at an appropriate pace and probably set up a separate kids program.

What tokens a school owner chooses to reward their students with at a given level is unimportant to me, but no school owner is ingorant of the public perception of a blackbelt, so they should take care in its issuance. Know that at some point, your black belts will on Youtube. You cannot crank out legions of blackbelts who lack basic proficiency and expect that people won't know about it.

 

[andyjeffries]

Well, I tend to agree with 10 years being excessive, under normal conditions. But I'm coming at things from an ITF perspective and you're looking at them from a KKW perspective. It may well be that Rhee Teakwon-Do views first dan as something different, or maybe they have a higher technical standard for their first dans. While we view first dan as one thing Rhee TKD may well view it as something else. From my perspective the KKW timetable is too short. From their perspective the ITF requirements are too long.

I think either ITF or KKW is fine (I go by KKW because I am KKW, but I think ITF is fine too).

I went back and reread this thread after seeing this. Ralph posted in an earier post the following:

"We wait 2 years from 1st to 2nd dan, 3 years from 2nd to 3rd, 4 years from 3rd to 4th etc."

Both Ralph and RTKDCMB are from Rhee TKD but if I am reading things correctly these are fairly disperate timelines. I do think Ralph's is more reasonable (from my view), even if it takes upwards of 10 years to make first dan. Maybe one or both of them can clarify.

Indeed.

It's possible, though I try to give people the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. I have seen instructors deny students promotions that I would've thought were warranted, but they weren't my student so I didn't know the full story. I've also seen someone's paperwork get "held up" so they get promoted after another person. FWIW, and speaking from the other side, I am now the same rank as one of my instructors, which when I was told I should get ready to test I was quite reticent about it and told them both that. Their reply was, basically, "Yeah, that's nice of you. You're testing in six months." She's still my senior and always will be, though, even if I promote to sixth dan at some point

Before my instructor died last year, I had promoted to the same grade as him. I was a bit funny about it, but he took the point of view "what do I care, it's my choice not to grade any more and I don't want to hold you up from doing it if you want to". Same as you, he would have always been my senior regardless of rank.

(she hasn't promoted in a long time because of some long standing injuries although her knowledge of Taekwon-Do is phenomenal, as is her teaching ability). As a student, though, I don't really like wearing the same rank as her.

I don't think injuries should hold someone up from advancement (particularly if their knowledge/teaching is up to scratch). Even if it's a long term injury, then the seniors should make allowances at the test. That's just me though (and it may be her choosing not to because of them, rather than concerns that she wouldn't pass because of them).

 

[andyjeffries]

If you're including a grappling and groundfighting program, hybridizing it with hapkido (I've seen that done), including a practical self defense program, and a weapon or two

Then personally I think you should be promoted in the self-defence system, weapon system, grappling system, hapkido, etc. - and it should be unrelated to your Taekwondo rank. I think this is the common viewpoint in Korea too, where lots of masters also have dan rank in Hapkido, Yudo, etc - it doesn't hold up their KKW Taekwondo rank, they get separate ranking for it.

What tokens a school owner chooses to reward their students with at a given level is unimportant to me, but no school owner is ingorant of the public perception of a blackbelt, so they should take care in its issuance. Know that at some point, your black belts will on Youtube. You cannot crank out legions of blackbelts who lack basic proficiency and expect that people won't know about it.

True, I just prefer to judge it based on skill not time. Too many thank of time before skill (you shouldn't be an Nth Dan after only Y years). My expectations of each rank are based on how much I reasonably believe people can improve in Y years.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Then personally I think you should be promoted in the self-defence system, weapon system, grappling system, hapkido, etc. - and it should be unrelated to your Taekwondo rank. I think this is the common viewpoint in Korea too, where lots of masters also have dan rank in Hapkido, Yudo, etc - it doesn't hold up their KKW Taekwondo rank, they get separate ranking for it.

No argument with any of this, but many schools teach a combined curriculum. I don't see this as inherently good or bad, as it really depends on who the instructor is and how well those elements can be made to work in synergy with each other.

True, I just prefer to judge it based on skill not time. Too many thank of time before skill (you shouldn't be an Nth Dan after only Y years). My expectations of each rank are based on how much I reasonably believe people can improve in Y years.

I agree. And if everyone promoted based on skill rather than on time and/or fees paid, we wouldn't be having most of these discussions.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I have two questions for you based on this. Bearing in mind that your gradings seem to be much slower than other Taekwondo groups.

1) Do your people not feel slighted when others ask what grade your people are after 30 years in the sport and your guys respond with a much lower dan rank than most other people?

2) What grade does Master Rhee allow his black belts to promote others to kup ranks, and at what point to promote others to black belt?

Andy

First of all I would like to point out that Rhee Tae Kwon Do has no sporting aspects of any kind. To answer your questions:

1) No we do not feel slighted, the Dans on the belt are just extra bits of material on the belt, what is important is the skills and knowledge that comes with training and teaching the art. Usually when someone asks me what rank I am I just tell them I am an instructor.

2) Branch instructors whether they are 1st Dans or higher can grade students up to and including 1st Kup. Instructors promote students during the regular class when they are ready, whether they are ready after 1 month or 9 months after their previous rank and we have what we call Action days every 3 months, which is basically a grading where all the students in the region participate but only a few that are ready at the time actually grade, this started only a few years ago. All black belt gradings are personally conducted by Master Rhee himself who travels around most of Australia conducting the action days 4 times a year, he does at least 3 in the Perth region where I am.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I don't think injuries should hold someone up from advancement (particularly if their knowledge/teaching is up to scratch). Even if it's a long term injury, then the seniors should make allowances at the test. That's just me though (and it may be her choosing not to because of them, rather than concerns that she wouldn't pass because of them).

Well, they are chronic conditions she's had for years. She still does train, though not nearly as much as she used to. I was in the room when a very senior member of the ITF offered to let her test for VI dan and have her do a curtailed physical exam. She very respectfully declined. She's just not interested in further promotions.

To be honest, I am not a fan of making allowances for injuries. A physical or even mental handicap is another matter. But, the fact is, some sort of standard has to be maintained and Taekwon-Do's ranking system is supposed to take into consideration both physical ability and mental maturity. Some people just aren't going to be able to attain some of the higher ranks. Personally, I would rather be a good V dan than a fair to middling VI dan.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gorilla]

After you get past 5th Dan I think rank should be heavily weighted towards contributions to the Art...

The physical test should have less influence!

 

[chrispillertkd]

After you get past 5th Dan I think rank should be heavily weighted towards contributions to the Art...

The physical test should have less influence!

Well, that may be true for the KKW but the ITF has a syllabus and physical tests up through VII dan. Indeed, you're not considered a "Master" until you're a VII dan. YMMV based on your training experiences in KKW Taekwondo but they don't necessarily carry over into other organizations/styles.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

... When I was younger it was always seen as 4th Dan is Master rank, with the privilege to promote students up to 3rd Dan Kukkiwon. 1st Dans and above could open their own school, teach their own students, but would need a 4th Dan to promote them.

In recent years, this seems to have changed to "4th Dan is kinda-Master, but more Junior Master" and our national governing body requires examiners to be 5th Dan and the national syllabus only considers 5th Dan to be Master (4th Dan is labelled "Instructor").

...My experience is mainly UK-based, so this may be different in the USA or Canada.

In Canada, 5th dan is required to test students.

Here is the definition of "Master" from Taewkondo Canada: "Master means a Kukkiwon certified 5th Dan or higher, who is qualified to promote colour belts and black belts in accordance to Kukkiwon regulations."

 

[andyjeffries]

In Canada, 5th dan is required to test students.

Here is the definition of "Master" from Taewkondo Canada: "Master means a Kukkiwon certified 5th Dan or higher, who is qualified to promote colour belts and black belts in accordance to Kukkiwon regulations."

Which is funny because Article 20 of the Kukkiwon regulations say they require a Kukkiwon 4th Dan to promote students to gup rank, Article 5 says individual instructors (in most countries) can recommend for Kukkiwon dan rank, which in Kukkiwon terms instructors are 4th Dan +.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Which is funny because Article 20 of the Kukkiwon regulations say they require a Kukkiwon 4th Dan to promote students to gup rank, Article 5 says individual instructors (in most countries) can recommend for Kukkiwon dan rank, which in Kukkiwon terms instructors are 4th Dan +.

Someone ages ago posted a link to a WTF document called "2011poomsae.pdf" which showed the new uniforms. The document (which I saved) called 1-3 dans "Master", 4-6 "Instructor Master" and 7-9 "Grand Master". So I wasn't surprised when you mentioned "instructors" as being at least 4th dan.

Nonetheless, the school where I study (in Canada) calls 1-3 dans who teach "instructor" and 4th dans "Master".

 

[Metal]

Someone ages ago posted a link to a WTF document called "2011poomsae.pdf" which showed the new uniforms.

Yeah, I still have the first version of that document, too. On the website of JCalicu (the company that's manufacturing the new Poomsae uniforms) they now just say Dan Holder (1-6) and High Dan Holder (7-9).

Interesting is that in the section of the Poom Uniforms they write "for 1st - 4th Dan under the age of 17". ( http://www.jcalicu.com/ )

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thought I'd share this here, as this thread is essentially about youth and children. This little girl is a purple belt, not a black belt. But I saw video posted by an adult fourth dan within the past year that didn't look this good. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=231875343624401

I'm not holding this up as an endorsement of child black belts, though if every child black belt looked like this, the debate about child black belts would be very different.

 

[Metal]

Thought I'd share this here, as this thread is essentially about youth and children. This little girl is a purple belt, not a black belt. But I saw video posted by an adult fourth dan within the past year that didn't look this good. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=231875343624401

I'm not holding this up as an endorsement of child black belts, though if every child black belt looked like this, the debate about child black belts would be very different.

The really amazing kids do Karate:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200228146483319

^^

There's probably some killer footage of young kids doing amazing Poomsae somewhere out there, too.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The really amazing kids do Karate:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200228146483319

^^

There's probably some killer footage of young kids doing amazing Poomsae somewhere out there, too.

And I repeat, if every child black belt looked like this, the debate about child black belts would be very different.

 

[Gorilla]

Charlie is on the USA-NKF JR National Team and is a Shodan in Shotokan Karate...current National Champion 14-15 under 60kl...His black belt is regularly questioned on this BBS some have even called me a liar!