Article 8 Time/Age limits POOM/DAN

[Gorilla]

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01#08


Thoughts on article 8?

Fast or Slow or Just Right!!!!

Its is my interpretation that a Martial Artist is eligible for promotion to 4th Dan @18 years of age as long as he received his 3rd Poom by the age of 15. If not then the minimum age requirement for 4th Dan is 21 years of age!!!

 

[dancingalone]

I'll repeat what I said last time we discussed child black belts. No dan rank before the age of 16, period.

I am not too crazy about 4th dans in their twenties either, but I don't want to beat a dead horse.

If the black belt is about separating competitors into experience or skill levels, I would try to use another system, perhaps point-based off tournament or match victories, or even 1 based on years of participation.

 

[terryl965]

Well I will use my son as the escape goat here. He is 16 and he is a third poom/Dan, he was a third when he was 15 so he is eligible to be a 4th by the time he is 18. I do not have a problem with except one thing, he is not like every other person out their, he has been inside a dojaang since he was born and been kicking since the age of three. Let say he really did not start to understand alot of things until he was around 14 still he would already have 10 years of training plus another 4 till he reached the age of 18. so 14 years of training everyday three to five hours so his he a Master hell no not by my standerds but by the KKW yes he is. This is the only grey area I allow in my school because by the guidelines of the org. I choose to be with say it is. The only thing I can say is one day he will be but at 18 though 30 no way, he needs to be worldly and I am not talking about tournaments but actually out in the workforce and becoming a man and then I will pass judgement on him.

It is kinda like the Military you can go kill a man but please do not drink any alcohol until you are 21, so silly for words/

 

[ATC]

Simple as this to me. Train. Train hard and gain knowledge. Don't looked to be called anything. If the org bestows the title of Master so be it. If someone calls you Master so be it. If no one calls you Master so be it. If you respect someone that is called Master then you will call them Master. If you do not respect someone that is labeled Master then you won't call them Master.

Either way it is a sign of respect and if you respect them for what they can do, then you will call them Master, if not then you won't. If you don't respect them you most likely wouldn't even associate with them to even call them anything one way or another.

Just my take on it.

 

[Gorilla]

I'll repeat what I said last time we discussed child black belts. No dan rank before the age of 16, period.

I am not too crazy about 4th dans in their twenties either, but I don't want to beat a dead horse.

If the black belt is about separating competitors into experience or skill levels, I would try to use another system, perhaps point-based off tournament or match victories, or even 1 based on years of participation.

According to the Standard no Dan Rank until 15. So you are close to the Kukkiwon Standard.

At our Old School the General Manager is a 28 Year Old 5th Degree. He is a highly respected Martial Artist in Southern California and is quite capable.
He has been at that school since he was five.

I am just trying to gage how everyone feels about the Kukkiwon Standard not trying to be controversial. Maybe the standard in and of itself is controversial! We will find out.

My question has nothing to do with competition. I am wanting to discuss rank standards as they apply to the Kukkiwon.

I know that I have been controversial in the past (and I will be in the Future) but that is not my intent in this post.

 

[dancingalone]

I am just trying to gage how everyone feels about the Kukkiwon Standard not trying to be controversial. Maybe the standard in and of itself is controversial! We will find out.

I think that many believe the Kukkiwon age is lenient, especially when you factor in the poom belt loophole where that means you can be a 4th dan in your early twenties.

<shrugs>I don't like it, but there's certainly plenty of other people who have highly ranked young black belts as well. This 'problem' is not unique to the KKW or to taekwondo.

 

[Gorilla]

I think that many believe the Kukkiwon age is lenient, especially when you factor in the poom belt loophole where that means you can be a 4th dan in your early twenties.

<shrugs>I don't like it, but there's certainly plenty of other people who have highly ranked young black belts as well. This 'problem' is not unique to the KKW or to taekwondo.

18 actually! Per the standard you could be an 18 Year Old 4th Dan as long as you achieved 3rd Poom by 15!

 

[rlp271]

I'll use myself as a strange situation a well. My instructor has given out exactly one black belt to someone under 16, and that was to me. He has promoted only two people to 4th dan, and I'm one. I was also a strange case though, as I started competing against adults when I was 14, because I had grown about as tall as I was going to get (5'8"), and was just putting on muscle at that point haha. I've also studied by butt off as far as theory, philosophy, and history are concerned.

Funny enough, I am on everyone else's side when it comes to rank. I don't like living in Korea, and seeing 7-year-old black belts (first pooms) and 12-year-old 3rd pooms. In a small school, you have the luxury to do things on a case by case basis, not so on an organizational level, so it seems that standards should be higher. Since I grew up in the United States, I have an idea of what kind of work is put into a black belt, but after spending more than two years here, I have started to rework that idea.

Here's why, the average kid in Korea is just like one in the US. They get their black belt, they're finished. The instructors do it to make money, but unlike the US Korea has middle school and high school competitive teams. Highly competitive, basically professional teams. If you have a gifted youngster, he'll be a poom by the time he gets to middle school, which means he can compete for his middle school team. If he does well, he'll get recruited to a high school program. High school programs with a lot of prestige produce gifted Taekwondo practitioners, who are what the US would consider professional Taekwondo players. They are supported by the school, some live on campus, and they rarely go to class. They spend their days training. I'd say, that a player like that, by age 18 has a better grasp on what they're doing with their martial art than a majority of other people doing Taekwondo. I don't want to throw a percentage out there, because it has no meaning. They've been training up to 7 or 8 hours a day for all 6 years of high school and middle school, when you add that to their training as a youth, you've got someone with 7 years of more than casual experience with Taekwondo and someone who has 6 years of Taekwondo training as a full time job. They are likely qualified to be a 4th dan. From there, they go one of two routes, they only go to get a business/physical education degree from a Taekwondo university like Yong-in, or they compete for the university while doing the degree. They try to make national teams, compete in large competitions (if you get a gold medal in one of the bigger international competitions, it cancels your military service woohoo!) or the Olympics, and your competition career is over by the time you're 27 or 28. From there, you open a school. How do you determine where that person's rank is? They train from 5-13 at a more than casual, say 4 days a week level, then 5-6 days a week for the next 14 years. A 28 year old as a 5th dan or 6th dan seems ludicrous in the US, but when you've been a full-time professional for 14 years who trains 7-8 hours a day?

 

[Gorilla]

I'll use myself as a strange situation a well. My instructor has given out exactly one black belt to someone under 16, and that was to me. He has promoted only two people to 4th dan, and I'm one. I was also a strange case though, as I started competing against adults when I was 14, because I had grown about as tall as I was going to get (5'8"), and was just putting on muscle at that point haha. I've also studied by butt off as far as theory, philosophy, and history are concerned.

Funny enough, I am on everyone else's side when it comes to rank. I don't like living in Korea, and seeing 7-year-old black belts (first pooms) and 12-year-old 3rd pooms. In a small school, you have the luxury to do things on a case by case basis, not so on an organizational level, so it seems that standards should be higher. Since I grew up in the United States, I have an idea of what kind of work is put into a black belt, but after spending more than two years here, I have started to rework that idea.

Here's why, the average kid in Korea is just like one in the US. They get their black belt, they're finished. The instructors do it to make money, but unlike the US Korea has middle school and high school competitive teams. Highly competitive, basically professional teams. If you have a gifted youngster, he'll be a poom by the time he gets to middle school, which means he can compete for his middle school team. If he does well, he'll get recruited to a high school program. High school programs with a lot of prestige produce gifted Taekwondo practitioners, who are what the US would consider professional Taekwondo players. They are supported by the school, some live on campus, and they rarely go to class. They spend their days training. I'd say, that a player like that, by age 18 has a better grasp on what they're doing with their martial art than a majority of other people doing Taekwondo. I don't want to throw a percentage out there, because it has no meaning. They've been training up to 7 or 8 hours a day for all 6 years of high school and middle school, when you add that to their training as a youth, you've got someone with 7 years of more than casual experience with Taekwondo and someone who has 6 years of Taekwondo training as a full time job. They are likely qualified to be a 4th dan. From there, they go one of two routes, they only go to get a business/physical education degree from a Taekwondo university like Yong-in, or they compete for the university while doing the degree. They try to make national teams, compete in large competitions (if you get a gold medal in one of the bigger international competitions, it cancels your military service woohoo!) or the Olympics, and your competition career is over by the time you're 27 or 28. From there, you open a school. How do you determine where that person's rank is? They train from 5-13 at a more than casual, say 4 days a week level, then 5-6 days a week for the next 14 years. A 28 year old as a 5th dan or 6th dan seems ludicrous in the US, but when you've been a full-time professional for 14 years who trains 7-8 hours a day?

Many of the National Level Juniors in the US are home schooled and have that type of training regimen. My Kids train 2-4 hours a day six days a week and have the discipline to keep their grades up. The give up the education for TKD I will never Understand. I know 2 people from Korea who came out of that system. They gave up allot for TKD. They both say don't sacrifice your Education for TKD

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I tend to disagree with these standards but as terry said, there will always be exceptions. I train with a guy who will be 4th dan by about 22 and as far as Im concerned he is an exception. His knowledge of the art, his skill level, his level head, his ability to instruct etc are all as good or better than any 4th dan I know (irrespective of age). I will say though, he is an exception. Im curious though, as far as time per dan goes with the kukkiwon. We wait 2 years from 1st to 2nd dan, 3 years from 2nd to 3rd, 4 years from 3rd to 4th etc. Is this the same as the kukkiwon?

 

[rlp271]

Many of the National Level Juniors in the US are home schooled and have that type of training regimen. My Kids train 2-4 hours a day six days a week and have the discipline to keep their grades up. The give up the education for TKD I will never Understand. I know 2 people from Korea who came out of that system. They gave up allot for TKD. They both say don't sacrifice your Education for TKD

I would never put my kid through it. I don't think it's right, but I do think it sets a precedent for their age standards, which seem crazy to us.

It's all in context though. Some of the kids that go through that training would clearly be better off in school, but others are orphans, or they're poor, and honestly when kids like that go through all that training, it sets them up with a lifelong profession in which they can make a good living. They learn as university students how to run a successful TKD program. They learn about business models, and how to make sure they can make a living.

Korean TKD has turned into kindergarten for the most part, but it's quite a lucrative kindergarten at $70-100/kid each month. I'm not saying that it's right that they give up a bulk of their education, nor is it fair, but life isn't really fair, and who knows what their fate had been otherwise.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I would never put my kid through it. I don't think it's right, but I do think it sets a precedent for their age standards, which seem crazy to us.

It's all in context though. Some of the kids that go through that training would clearly be better off in school, but others are orphans, or they're poor, and honestly when kids like that go through all that training, it sets them up with a lifelong profession in which they can make a good living. They learn as university students how to run a successful TKD program. They learn about business models, and how to make sure they can make a living.

Korean TKD has turned into kindergarten for the most part, but it's quite a lucrative kindergarten at $70-100/kid each month. I'm not saying that it's right that they give up a bulk of their education, nor is it fair, but life isn't really fair, and who knows what their fate had been otherwise.

Is this something thats unique to Korea? For instance, has karate become a kindergarten in japan?

 

[ATC]

I would never put my kid through it. I don't think it's right, but I do think it sets a precedent for their age standards, which seem crazy to us.

It's all in context though. Some of the kids that go through that training would clearly be better off in school, but others are orphans, or they're poor, and honestly when kids like that go through all that training, it sets them up with a lifelong profession in which they can make a good living. They learn as university students how to run a successful TKD program. They learn about business models, and how to make sure they can make a living.

Korean TKD has turned into kindergarten for the most part, but it's quite a lucrative kindergarten at $70-100/kid each month. I'm not saying that it's right that they give up a bulk of their education, nor is it fair, but life isn't really fair, and who knows what their fate had been otherwise.

Any good dojang here in the states will ensure that the kids do well in school first. Bad grade in school then no training or TKD classes. They will insist that the student bring his or her homework to class in need be and get it done before training or in between training times.

If your dojang is not doing this then you need to find an instructor or school owner that cares. We have no problem sitting a kid out if he or she is not performing at home or school.

 

[rlp271]

Is this something thats unique to Korea? For instance, has karate become a kindergarten in japan?

That's something I'm not qualified to comment on. I have been told that budo in Japan isn't something that's very popular though. It's not necessarily respected either. The second I saw kids doing a TKD "dance" to a video, I knew exactly what TKD dojang in Korea were...

You can probably find good ones, but they may be even further and farther apart than the ones in the US.

 

[rlp271]

Any good dojang here in the states will ensure that the kids do well in school first. Bad grade in school then no training or TKD classes. They will insist that the student bring his or her homework to class in need be and get it done before training or in between training times.

If your dojang is not doing this then you need to find an instructor or school owner that cares. We have no problem sitting a kid out if he or she is not performing at home or school.

The US and Korea are worlds apart when it comes to their ideas about education and athletics. Often times the best athletes in the US are at least doing average in school. Some excel. Craig Krenzel led Ohio State to a football national championship and graduated with a high gpa and a degree in molecular genetics.

In Korea, if you're an excellent athlete, that's what you do. It's a choice made by your parents. If you're really the cream of the crop in any sport, you sacrifice school for whatever it is you're good at. The school I used to work at had a national championship winning tennis team. I saw those girls maybe 3 time a semester. Maybe. Kim Yuna (figure skating), Jang Miran (power lifting), and others, I'm sure have done the same thing. I has nothing to do with caring. The coaches here do care, but about different things. They care about how well their athletes do in their sport. That's their job. In the US, that's not considered "right," but we can't really examine another culture using our own moral standards. It's not fair to the culture, and it can cause a lot of misunderstandings about what exactly the intentions are behind the actions of the other.

 

[Miles]

The KKW rule is the rule. I've never been in a position to promote anyone that young to that level.

Coincidentally my avatar photo is with my first 4th dan student. He's got over 20 yrs of training and he's 54 yrs old.

 

[ccultrara]

IF the students skill level and understanding is at the point it needs to be, then why not advance them to the next Dan. I am applying for my 3rd Dan KKW now at 17 and will receive my school's 4th Dan by 18 but i will be waiting till 21 for my KKW rightfully so

 

[irgordon]

I think they work and should be adhered to, no reason why everyone should be rushing to make this Dan or that Dan, just keep training and working, you already got a black belt, focus on working out and improving your techniques and material rather than worrying about the # of "stripes" on your belt.

 

[Cirdan]

I am curious how many reach third and fourth dan with the KKW.
Any percentages available, of students in general or those who reach 1. Dan?

How are those ranks treated? I`ve always seen 3rd and above as an instructor`s instructor, full Sensei who understands the whole system if you will.

 

[dancingalone]

This is the best article on standards and child black belts I've seen yet. Worth the read.

http://bushido-kai.net/articles/TheYoungestBlackBelt.pdf


...

It is not just sour grapes; rather it is the emotional realization that the standards of some schools are annoying dissimilar from other schools. The symbolic meaning of the black belt to the general public seeks the lowest common denominator, so a mature adult feels cheated when the 9-year-old puts on a black belt it took him 18 months to "earn".

...