"Arrow-cutting"?

[chrispillertkd]

It's interesting that you note that koryu kata include things that don't necessarily make sense in an actual conflict, Paul. I have no first hand experience with Maniwa Nen-ryu so I can't say if the yadome jutsu it teaches is supposed to be taken "as is" or as a step to internalizing some concept or way of moving to be used in other techniques. Interestingly, Tendo ryu naginatajutsu also includes yadome jutsu and link that body of techniques back to a decidedly unsuccessful attempt by Saito Denkibo Katsuhide to defend himself against archers. He apparently was able to cut some of the arrows but not enough to survive.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Sukerkin]

Cheers, Chris, that was the old painting I had seen that I referred to earlier :tup:.

 

[Flying Crane]

All styles have techniques that most people wouldn't consider " effective." I can't tell you the number of times people have informed me that Taekwon-Do's high kicks are ineffective even though I've used them quite effectively in self-defense more than once. (The secret is like everything else; you need adequate training.) They also often have techniques that are used as a last resort. I'd say that since Maniwa Nen Ryu is a legitimate koryu it's most likely that its yadome techniques fall into both of these categories. Something that you don't really want to be in a situation where you need them but hoping you put enough training time in if you are.
Thanks for the pic, Jameswhelan.


Chris

I think there's a logical fallacy here tho. If it's a last resort, then you've got first, second, and probably third line options that you would go to first, before you hit the "last resort" Your time in training would be much more heavily spent on those options instead of the last resort options, it is just a more fruitful way to spend your time and energy in training and those have a much higher probability of being successful and useful.

A tech. like arrow cutting would require a tremendous amount of training to develop and then to keep the skill sharp (pun intended). That is valuable training time spent away from the first, second, and third line options, and probably isn't a good way to spend that time. It's such an unlikely thing, that spending time working on it just doesn't make sense. Even under orchestrated conditions, it's a tough thing to pull off. Under the chaos of battle, where an arrow can come from anywhere and you don't have the luxury of preparing for it, and you don't know how powerful the bow is and how fast the arrow may be coming it, and you may be dealing with other problems in addition, it just doesn't make sense as a viable strategy or defense option. It's an extremely low-probability skillset, not worth spending time on.

So while having adequate training might bring your high kicks into the realm of useful, I think arrow cutting is in a realm of its own as not realistic.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I think there's a logical fallacy here tho. If it's a last resort, then you've got first, second, and probably third line options that you would go to first, before you hit the "last resort" Your time in training would be much more heavily spent on those options instead of the last resort options, it is just a more fruitful way to spend your time and energy in training and those have a much higher probability of being successful and useful.

That's not a logical fallacy. It's a technique that you don't like. Which is fine. People are free to prioritize their training however they like (and it's not part of my art, so I don't really care one way or the other as far as yadome is concerned). Plenty of people tell me certain techniques are "not effective" even though I've used them when I had to defend myself. There are many tools for many jobs. I'd think yadome jutsu would be one that could be used if you were armed with a sword or naginata against an archer. What other option is there? Besides being shot without putting up any defense, I mean. That's more what I meant when I said a "technique of last resort." It's really the only thing you have going for you (besides running away and getting an arrow or three in the back).

A tech. like arrow cutting would require a tremendous amount of training to develop and then to keep the skill sharp (pun intended). That is valuable training time spent away from the first, second, and third line options, and probably isn't a good way to spend that time. It's such an unlikely thing, that spending time working on it just doesn't make sense. Even under orchestrated conditions, it's a tough thing to pull off. Under the chaos of battle, where an arrow can come from anywhere and you don't have the luxury of preparing for it, and you don't know how powerful the bow is and how fast the arrow may be coming it, and you may be dealing with other problems in addition, it just doesn't make sense as a viable strategy or defense option. It's an extremely low-probability skillset, not worth spending time on.

Everybody makes decisions on how to prioritize their time. Like I said, it's a technique you don't like. That's fine. There's plenty of things that people do in other styles that I don't care for and think they'd be better served doing things another way. As I pointed out, though, it's not a matter of having two or three other defenses to use against arrows. It's more a matter of definitely being killed or maybe not being killed. And that's all dependent on whether or not yadome is meant to be directly applied or, as Paul mentioned, it might be meant to be a building block to another skill.

So while having adequate training might bring your high kicks into the realm of useful, I think arrow cutting is in a realm of its own as not realistic.

Maybe, but there's only one way to be sure (and I don't have a sword or a bow so I am not going to be the one to find out).

Pax,

Chris

 

[Flying Crane]

That's not a logical fallacy. It's a technique that you don't like. Which is fine. People are free to prioritize their training however they like (and it's not part of my art, so I don't really care one way or the other as far as yadome is concerned). Plenty of people tell me certain techniques are "not effective" even though I've used them when I had to defend myself. There are many tools for many jobs. I'd think yadome jutsu would be one that could be used if you were armed with a sword or naginata against an archer. What other option is there? Besides being shot without putting up any defense, I mean. That's more what I meant when I said a "technique of last resort." It's really the only thing you have going for you (besides running away and getting an arrow or three in the back).



Everybody makes decisions on how to prioritize their time. Like I said, it's a technique you don't like. That's fine. There's plenty of things that people do in other styles that I don't care for and think they'd be better served doing things another way. As I pointed out, though, it's not a matter of having two or three other defenses to use against arrows. It's more a matter of definitely being killed or maybe not being killed. And that's all dependent on whether or not yadome is meant to be directly applied or, as Paul mentioned, it might be meant to be a building block to another skill.



Maybe, but there's only one way to be sure (and I don't have a sword or a bow so I am not going to be the one to find out).

Pax,

Chris

well for me, I recognize it as a fancy parlour trick and nothing more. It's actually impressive in it's own way, I won't deny that. But in my world I see no value in spending time on it with the fantasy of it being a viable combat technique.

others can feel how they wish about it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Here's a thought - if you are in a position to cut an arrow with a sword wouldn't you be already out of it's way and wouldn't need to?