Are low stances useless?

[zzj]

I agree you don't stand and trade punches out of a low stance, but I think you can use it in a fight.

Agreed

 

[RTKDCMB]

A 50/50 stance (low back stance with even weight distribution) can be used for a lunge punch underneath someone's guard, low stances can aid in ducking high attacks and a good long forward stance with the rear leg straight and planted into the ground can stop someone pushing you back. These are just some of the uses, so I would say no.

 

[K-man]

Yes, that much is true, but what I meant is adopting a medium to low stance as your default posture when facing an opponent. Most of the forms and applications I have been taught are executed with such stance and we are taught to move on and out of positions swiftly while maintaining low stance.

I wouldn't dream of adopting a low stance in that situation. As I have often said if you would use that stance when a guy challenges you in the pub then fair enough.

Training in low stances really help to develop awesome lower body strength, my teacher is practically immovable, however, once he moves it is deceptively quick, even when maintaining a low stance. Seems like a viable way to move when facing an opponent, that's why I'm not sure why it is not used more widely.

Awesome lower body strength, that I would call 'centre', is nothing to do with low stance. If you low stance gives you added leg strength then call it a side benefit.

My suspicion is keeping a low stance would deter your opponent from going for a take down in the first place.. unless you're already in a clinch. This is also one reason i suspect, that so many fights in MMA go to the ground so easily...

You are talking sport. You can do what you like there. Stances were in kata a hundred years before there was competition.

I do not know which MA teaches the low stance as a purely static position.. as far as I know, low stances are not supposed to be any more static than high, standing stances. In fact, static low stances are only practiced to strengthen and condition your thigh and lower leg muscles to the degree that they can move in a fluid manner even while maintaining a low stance.

Wrong in all respects. Low stances when used as part of a technique are either static or transitional into another static position, and the move into and out of those stances needs to be fluid. Absolutely nothing to do with leg strength. If your teacher tells you that that is the main purpose of low stances, I would suggest you find a new teacher.
:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

I wouldn't dream of adopting a low stance in that situation. As I have often said if you would use that stance when a guy challenges you in the pub then fair enough.


Awesome lower body strength, that I would call 'centre', is nothing to do with low stance. If you low stance gives you added leg strength then call it a side benefit.

You are talking sport. You can do what you like there. Stances were in kata a hundred years before there was competition.

Wrong in all respects. Low stances when used as part of a technique are either static or transitional into another static position, and the move into and out of those stances needs to be fluid. Absolutely nothing to do with leg strength. If your teacher tells you that that is the main purpose of low stances, I would suggest you find a new teacher.
:asian:

Harsh, but a little true.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Harsh, but a little true.

I do think his teacher tells him not to be static; so, we may have simple terminology issue here.

 

[drop bear]

Low stances in general are harder to move around in and harder to kick from but give better takedown defence. And stronger punches.

People make both work to a greater or lesser extent.

 

[zzj]

I do think his teacher tells him not to be static; so, we may have simple terminology issue here.

Yup, it's a terminology issue, I don't disagree with what he said its just more of a semantics problem. I'm not going to try to be defensive about it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you only train high stances and you don't train low stances, you may not push yourself hard enough. If you can do "foot sweep" from this low stance, you should have no problem to do it in higher stance.

If you can move fast in this low stance, you should have no problem to move fast in higher stance.

 

[zzj]

An example on stance training and conditioning from the Wiki entry for Ma Gui, one of the notable Baguazhang (not my MA though) exponents at the turn of the 20th century.

Ma Gui advocated a rigorous approach to training with a heavy emphasis on developing extraordinary lower leg strength. According to current Ma Gui Style Baguazhang teacher Li Baohua, "The Baguazhang passed on by Ma Gui emphasizes the lower basin walking, so his lower legs were extremely thick. Lower basin walking means that the strength of the whole body is concentrated on the lower legs and feet, using the hidden strength of the bones and tendons. Ma Gui's lower legs were so developed that the shin bone was completely protected by tissue. He often had Liu Wanchuan (Li Baohua's grandmaster) look at his shins, and would occasionally allow people to hit them with wooden or iron staffs."[SUP][8][/SUP] Ma Gui would often wear a sand filled jacket on his body or a sand filled belt around his waist or legs for strength training and would also attach ropes on nearby trees to make a netting, and then train under the netting. The netting would ensure that he stayed low.[SUP][11][/SUP] Ma Gui was also known to demonstrate his strength by Bagua circle walking underneath a three foot high table.[SUP][2][/SUP] While an impressive feat, the majority of Ma Gui's leg training was not done through walking at such an extremely low level, but rather was cultivated by countless hours of his system's "bear walking:" slow concentrated circle-walking in a horse stance that dramatically transforms the large tendon lines from neck to feet and strengthens the entire body.[SUP][12][/SUP][SUP][13][/SUP][SUP][14][/SUP]
Ma Gui was most famous for his devastating fighting technique called the "zhibi wanda"—a wrist strike with a straightened arm.[SUP][7][/SUP] According to third generation Yin Style Baguazhang master He Puren, "In order to practice his wrist-striking, he would do a press-up style exercise that involved him falling forward onto the floor onto the back of his wrists and then springing back up to a standing position, which he would practice repeatedly and could do with ease. He had bested many famous masters using only his wrist-striking. You couldn't touch his body, if you did it felt like being electrocuted."[SUP][15][/SUP] To further strengthen this technique Ma was also known to practice with ten-pound iron rings on each wrist.[SUP][7][/SUP]

 

[RTKDCMB]

I read somewhere that the low stances in Hung Gar were because it was practiced on a boat with a low ceiling. I don't know if it's true or not.

 

[Buka]

Are low stances, which are the core elements in many traditional styles, actually useful in free for all fighting/sparring? Are the more contemporary stand up stances simple more mobile or are they intrinsically less stable (more prone to takedowns), can low stances be a viable alternative?

Sounds like questions for your instructor.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sounds like questions for your instructor.

While this is always true, it's also true that if we provide no other input than "ask your instructor", then this forum doesn't really serve any purpose.
And given the fact that nobody knows everything, it's entirely possible that someone here might provide an answer that, while not identical to one given by the instructor, may still be useful or provide insight.

 

[zzj]

Sounds like questions for your instructor.

I did ask him, but I also have to keep in mind that he has only trained in 1 style his whole life (30+ years), so his opinion may be somewhat 'biased'.

However, he does have extensive experience conducting workshops internationally, including sharing sessions with other MA styles and MMA etc; he recently tested applications with Muay Thai and BJJ practitioners (students), and his opinion was that he could 'take their balance' quite easily. He did not actually spar with them, but they did have limited exchanges with resistance.

 

[wingchun100]

I wouldn't say useless, but they have their place. I wouldn't use a low stance as my "go to" fighting stance. Then again, I train in a style where low stances appear in only one form.

 

[zzj]

And just to add.

I did Tae Kwon Do in my teens and I am nominally a Black Belt (Yes I know that's not saying much). In TKD we did our Poomsae in low stances, but in sparring there's hardly a hint of it. Didn't think much about it then, but now it's really puzzling to me why we would do our forms in a way that had little relevance to how we actually fought.

 

[K-man]

And just to add.

I did Tae Kwon Do in my teens and I am nominally a Black Belt (Yes I know that's not saying much). In TKD we did our Poomsae in low stances, but in sparring there's hardly a hint of it. Didn't think much about it then, but now it's really puzzling to me why we would do our forms in a way that had little relevance to how we actually fought.

Ah! Now you are starting to think. That may well be the first step along a different path.

 

[Grenadier]

In general, however, I'd say that it's pretty safe to say that regardless of the art, the low stances practiced in forms build flexibility and strength in the thighs and hips. That's important in any stance. And of course if you were to, say, duck under a high strike, the practice moving in the low stance would be useful.
More specific applications would depend on your system, of course.

That's a solid assessment.

In many Karate systems, low stances are employed as part of your training, so that you can strengthen the correct muscles in the lower body, and that you can develop a sense of what parts of the lower body need to be tensed properly, in order to maximize the strength generated.

Once you get an idea of where the correct tension should be, then it will carry over into all aspects of your fundamentals. This will result in the being able to use that "good" tension in the less predictable situations, such as jiyu kumite, even though you're using a more upright, natural stance.

Having your students train using low stances to develop the correct muscle memory is one of the easiest ways for them to develop solid bodily mechanics. Textbooks or videos, or even verbal explanations can't really replace this.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yup, it's a terminology issue, I don't disagree with what he said its just more of a semantics problem. I'm not going to try to be defensive about it.

When you think of you fighting stance, a very static image should appear in your head, but you don't have to be static with your fighting stance.

 

[Buka]

I wasn't trying to be wise with the "ask your instructor" comment, but it may be a thing to explore further with him.

I think low stance/ wide stance is common in all styles - even unintentionally.
In boxing you are taught to keep your feet under you at all times. Many beginners will have a rope tied to each ankle, binding their feet to a shorter stance than they like. It's to teach keeping a short, mobile power base under your punches. Great in practice but it will usually revert to a wider stance when actually fighting. If you watch film of the greatest boxers that ever lived - watch their feet. While fighting, especially in a heated exchange, they all open up to a wider stance than they use in training. (Compare their training clips to their fight clips.)

Same thing in MMA. Watch the fighters, from the hips down, while they are in stand up mode. Keep your eye on the distance between their feet. Watch their base widen as they trade punches, kicks. Pretty much everyone does. (again, watch their training clips compared to their fights) I believe it's a natural adjustment of the body during combat.
It's just like when asked "which foot do you like forward?" and somebody says "I'm good with either one, I have no preference" ....they may not theoretically, but if they are shoved, threatened or surprised in real life, whatever their body likes as it's best foot forward - it's going to go to that stance every single time during initial threat.

I believe it is that way in any Martial Art. And I think a person's stance widens on it's own in times of "fighting stress". Not practice, but when the crap hits the fan. It's all physiology.

Maybe a low stance, which is pretty much the same as a wide stance because the body lowers as the feet spread, has something to do with it.

 

[oftheherd1]

Jhoon Goo Rhee sometimes demonstrated movements from a low stance. He would jump, or perhaps a better word would be bound, forward landing in the same stance. He would bound forward several times like that at great speed, until he came to a wall. Any of those bounds would have provided an opportunity to kick with great force, or if an opponent stepped to the side, a punch or sudo strike. Awesome to watch. Is that a reason for low stances? I don't know, but as I said, awesome to watch.