Any thoughts on a short clip of me shadow boxing?

[JowGaWolf]

My whole view point of punching power is that it's not clear cut in martial arts because you aren't always looking for the most powerful punch it's not always the most powerful punch that does the most damage.

The video shows 2 things. Slow speed punch causing damage. The problem with this in terms of fighting is that me punching this slow in sparring and fighting would be ineffective. The only way these punches will reach the target in sparring or fighting is for me to add more speed. However, adding more speed creates more damaged. There's no way these punches will be less damaging at a lower speed. For those who think the video is fake. This is during a real class, listen to the reaction to my punches and kicks have on my partner. Listen to him try to figure how why the punches and kicks are so painful. Then watch him try to knife hand my leg in a effort to return the pain and to make me feel what he's feeling. Then listen to what he says, when I tell him what's going on and what to do. List to what he says when he hits me with the same technique. Remember this is a conditioning class not a demo. People who have seen me take punches in sparring have seen me get hit with faster and harder punches than these.

I could throw a heavy medicine ball in the same location at the same speed as those slow punches and it would do less damage. Example more mass traveling a longer distance landing on a stomach. So here you have a heavier mass doing less damage than than the lighter mass of my punches.

When you understand the 2 videos, you will see that Power in terms of martial arts isn't as straight forward as the debate makes it appear. What I'm seeing in the debate about Power is that it's an either or effect. This would be correct. I'm pretty sure the equation for power isn't Power = speed or Power = Mass, or Power = Velocity.

Just something to think about

 

[jobo]

your not punching a heavy bag though are you? , not unless your attacked by one, which does seem unlikely.

your pushing the bag, thats not a punch, it's a push with your fist, the bag will swing, but it will do that if you just push normally

If speed (it's actually acceleration not speed) equals power, Roy Jones jr would be the biggest puncher of all time.. He was not the hardest puncher in any division he fought.

Nor was mayweather.

Speed does contribute but very little in comparison to mass.

Mike Tyson had both speed and mass (leverage) which is why he is one of the hardest punchers.

My whole view point of punching power is that it's not clear cut in martial arts because you aren't always looking for the most powerful punch it's not always the most powerful punch that does the most damage.

The video shows 2 things. Slow speed punch causing damage. The problem with this in terms of fighting is that me punching this slow in sparring and fighting would be ineffective. The only way these punches will reach the target in sparring or fighting is for me to add more speed. However, adding more speed creates more damaged. There's no way these punches will be less damaging at a lower speed. For those who think the video is fake. This is during a real class, listen to the reaction to my punches and kicks have on my partner. Listen to him try to figure how why the punches and kicks are so painful. Then watch him try to knife hand my leg in a effort to return the pain and to make me feel what he's feeling. Then listen to what he says, when I tell him what's going on and what to do. List to what he says when he hits me with the same technique. Remember this is a conditioning class not a demo. People who have seen me take punches in sparring have seen me get hit with faster and harder punches than these.

I could throw a heavy medicine ball in the same location at the same speed as those slow punches and it would do less damage. Example more mass traveling a longer distance landing on a stomach. So here you have a heavier mass doing less damage than than the lighter mass of my punches.

When you understand the 2 videos, you will see that Power in terms of martial arts isn't as straight forward as the debate makes it appear. What I'm seeing in the debate about Power is that it's an either or effect. This would be correct. I'm pretty sure the equation for power isn't Power = speed or Power = Mass, or Power = Velocity.

Just something to think about

no, power equals work done divided by time,

if the load is fixed then moving it from point a to point b it in half the time equals twice the power, that's exactly how they calculate ( brake)horse power, its how fast a horse can raise a set load over a set distance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So you get told to punch through the target. But then wind up wasting energy digging your fist in to people too much

I think people misunderstand this. In the conditioning video I posted here, I was "punching through the instructor's stomach." Through to me however doesn't mean trying to send my punch all the way through the body. Punching through to me means more like "Punching in" or "Stabbing Punch"

Punching through would be like me punching your stomach and trying to make my fist reach your spine.
Punching in is like me trying to punch your organs (stab your organs) behind the stomach. Not with my fist, but with my knuckle.

Think of a knife stab. if you stab someone you aren't trying to send the knife all the way through. You just want to send it far enough to hit the organs and cause damage I use this same technique on heavy bags. What you see is that the bag doesn't move punch but the impact is deep enough to hold water

1. I train punch through
2. I train punch in / punch stab

These are not an either or concept because some punches you must punch through while other types of punches you don't. One cannot use long fist techniques without punching through. All of it is relative to the technique being used and they place a person is striking.

 

[JowGaWolf]

thats exactly how they calculate horse power,

Do you calculate your punches in terms of "horsepower" ? if not then none of that matters

 

[jobo]

Do you calculate your punches in terms of "horsepower" ? if not then none of that matters

i could , of course it matters, you gave an exhaustive list of all the thing power didn't equal, and strangely you were mostly right, however in a defined circumstances like a fixed load, like a fist, then power does equate to speed as if you half the time over the distance of travel( ie the speed), you double the power

 

[JowGaWolf]

i could ,

I could doesn't sound like you do.

If you don't calculate your punching power or even view your punching power as "horsepower" Then describing it as such does not matter in the context of things.

however in a defined circumstances like a fixed load, like a fist,

There is not a fixed load for a fist in a fight. There is a lot of variety.

then power does equate to speed as if you half the time over the distance of travel( ie the speed), you double the power

So how much power does a humming bird have? It fits your definition.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Slower animal should be less powerful than the faster one. Not my argument but it's what is being said in the this discussion about power by you and others who are taking a "Either.. Or" stance that it's one thing and not another. That one is more important than the other.

 

[Dirty Dog]

no, power equals work done divided by time,

if the load is fixed then moving it from point a to point b it in half the time equals twice the power, that's exactly how they calculate ( brake)horse power, its how fast a horse can raise a set load over a set distance.

Actually, this is urban myth.
One horsepower equals 33,000 foot-pounds of work per minute—that is, the power necessary to lift a total mass of 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute.
Brake horsepower (or at the crank, for non-UK readers) only applies to engines. Engine HP is Torque x RPM / 5252. Which is why the HP and torque lines on every dyno sheet cross at an RPM of 5252.
No horse involved.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Engine HP is Torque x RPM

Just for clarification RPM means Right Punch Movement right?

 

[jobo]

Actually, this is urban myth.
One horsepower equals 33,000 foot-pounds of work per minute—that is, the power necessary to lift a total mass of 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute.
Brake horsepower (or at the crank, for non-UK readers) only applies to engines. Engine HP is Torque x RPM / 5252. Which is why the HP and torque lines on every dyno sheet cross at an RPM of 5252.
No horse involved.

no, it is based on horses, coz James Watt who invented the concept said it was when he invented the concept, and you cant really argue with him

its isnt what a horse can produce as peak power over a very short interval which is closer to 15 horse power, its what a horse can sustain over an extended period, a humans peak horse power is about 5, this of course is a British standard pulling ( cart ) horse, not a pit pony or a race horse or a mustang which are somewhat under powered by comparison

 

[jobo]

I could doesn't sound like you do.

If you don't calculate your punching power or even view your punching power as "horsepower" Then describing it as such does not matter in the context of things.


There is not a fixed load for a fist in a fight. There is a lot of variety.


So how much power does a humming bird have? It fits your definition.

your either measuring your punch in lbs/foot or newton metes or joules or KW or horse power, there isnt any other units applicable

you can convert one to another if you want to as they are at a fixed ratio a human is capable of about 5 horse power or about 3 kw( about 30 watts per KG of body weight) as peak energy production considerably less over a long period, which is why sprints are short time duration

humming birds produce 130 watts of energy per KG, thats 30% more than other birds and 4 times more than humans, proving beyond doubt that fast move means additional power, i can convert that to horse power if you really want

 

[jobo]

I could doesn't sound like you do.

If you don't calculate your punching power or even view your punching power as "horsepower" Then describing it as such does not matter in the context of things.


There is not a fixed load for a fist in a fight. There is a lot of variety.


So how much power does a humming bird have? It fits your definition.

there is a very fixed load in a punch, depending on what you term that load to be, its either your opponent, who is fixed in weight and composition, or the weight of your arm which is also so fixed

the Two variables are using the rest of your body to gain velocity and how much of your body weight you can transferee into the punch, which can be viewed as technique

a slower punch with more body weight may indeed have more energy, but not as much as the same weight transfer done faster and there is a point where a slow punch with a lot of weight transfer actually become a push, its good for moving a load backwards but causes minimal damage

if we view the technique of weight transfer as fixed and it is at least over the course of a fight, the only variable you have left is the speed of your fist

the punching through thing is really a mental trick to stop you decelerating before impact, just time it for contact three inches further away and that's a nose or a rib gone

 

[dvcochran]

This has always been the easiest way for me to remember it:

How much is 1 horsepower?

In the U.S., one horsepower is defined as a unit of power equal to 746 watts, nearly equivalent to the English gravitational unit of the same name that equals 550 foot-pounds of work per second. One horsepower is a unit of power that equals the work done in lifting 550 pounds one foot in one second.

Formula for calculations of Break horsepower is
1.BHP = (Torque × RPM )/5252,where torque is lb -ft and n = revolution per min.

2.BHP = BP /33000,where BP (in watt ) = Torque×2π×RPM (RPM in min. ) Where torque in the formula of BP is in lb -ft

 

[JowGaWolf]

your either measuring your punch in lbs/foot or newton metes or joules or KW or horse power, there isnt any other units applicable

you can convert one to another if you want to as they are at a fixed ratio a human is capable of about 5 horse power or about 3 kw( about 30 watts per KG of body weight) as peak energy production considerably less over a long period, which is why sprints are short time duration

humming birds produce 130 watts of energy per KG, thats 30% more than other birds and 4 times more than humans, proving beyond doubt that fast move means additional power, i can convert that to horse power if you really want

Like I said before it doesn't matter when it comes to Martial arts.
1. Do I want to have a quick jab?
2. Do I want the jab to distract or land hard?
3. Do I want to throw a single jab?
4. Do I want to use a jab to counter?
5. When punching without boxing gloves do I want land that jab on one knuckle or two knuckles?
6. Do I want the jab to start or end my combo?
7. Do I want the jab to set up a power shot?
8. Where do I want my power shot to land? Stomach? Ribs? guard? head?
9. Do I want the power shot to be close like a short hook to the body? Or do I want the power shot to land like a long fist technique to the head? or maybe I want the power shot to be a spinning back fist or an uppercut.
10. How do I want to drive power to my punches. From the hips? from the waist? from a pivot? from a pushing off the rear leg with heel down? from stepping into the punch? or rising with the punch? Do I want to put body mass behind the punch or momentum behind the punch? Or do I want to put both mass and speed?

After all of this has been determined and set forth. No one asks how much horse power their punch has. The only things they care about are.
1. Would my punch land
2. Would my punch cause damage
1. Did my punch land
2. Did my punch cause damage.

In competition and in a real fight, you can throw your best power punch miss, and get laid out with something that had less power than what you were throwing, all because you didn't see it coming.

 

[jobo]

Like I said before it doesn't matter when it comes to Martial arts.
1. Do I want to have a quick jab?
2. Do I want the jab to distract or land hard?
3. Do I want to throw a single jab?
4. Do I want to use a jab to counter?
5. When punching without boxing gloves do I want land that jab on one knuckle or two knuckles?
6. Do I want the jab to start or end my combo?
7. Do I want the jab to set up a power shot?
8. Where do I want my power shot to land? Stomach? Ribs? guard? head?
9. Do I want the power shot to be close like a short hook to the body? Or do I want the power shot to land like a long fist technique to the head? or maybe I want the power shot to be a spinning back fist or an uppercut.
10. How do I want to drive power to my punches. From the hips? from the waist? from a pivot? from a pushing off the rear leg with heel down? from stepping into the punch? or rising with the punch? Do I want to put body mass behind the punch or momentum behind the punch? Or do I want to put both mass and speed?

After all of this has been determined and set forth. No one asks how much horse power their punch has. The only things they care about are.
1. Would my punch land
2. Would my punch cause damage
1. Did my punch land
2. Did my punch cause damage.

In competition and in a real fight, you can throw your best power punch miss, and get laid out with something that had less power than what you were throwing, all because you didn't see it coming.

your the one who started talking about the power of punches, if that is measure its in watts or horse power, there is no other choice as a unit of power

a jab is dependent on two things 1) the weight of your arm, with or with out a boxing glove and 2) the speed you can generate in the distance, that's it. as you cant decided to make your arm heavier at short notice, your left with the speed

its also a happy coincidence, that the faster the jab travels the more likely it is to hit, so its win win

your jab should be snapping the head back if its gloved or coursing cuts if its bare and still snapping the head back, if that's the only measure available to you, if that not happening your not fast enough or you need to put some muscle on your arms or possibly both

throwing a bad jab that neither hits or hurts if it did, needs to be part of a clever strategy to lure the other guy into a false sense of security, other wise just hit him, you may not get another chance

 

[JowGaWolf]

your the one who started talking about the power of punches,

Nope that conversation was already in motion long before I made my comments on it.

a jab is dependent on two things 1) the weight of your arm, with or with out a boxing glove and 2) the speed you can generate in the distance, that's it. as you cant decided to make your arm heavier at short notice, your left with the speed

That's only part of what goes into a jab. Jab without moving your feet, without pivoting, without using the hips, without putting body weight behind the punch vs trying to depend on the weight of an arm. If a person weights 125 and has a powerful punch, then I can tell you without doubt that it's not the weight of the arm making the difference.

that the faster the jab travels the more likely it is to hit

I hit people with slow stuff all the time. If you have a good set up then you don't have to rely on speed so much. I'm not special either. Boxers hit people with slow stuff all the time too. They also hit people with fast shots. The better I can set my opponent up the more likely I will be able to hit my opponent regardless of the speed of the punch.

throwing a bad jab

I never said anything about bad jabs. Bad jabs and slow jabs are 2 different things.

Here you can see Larry holmes throw jabs of various speeds and purposes. Some fast some slow. Just because the punch is slow doesn't mean it's bad.

 

[jobo]

Nope that conversation was already in motion long before I made my comments on it.

That's only part of what goes into a jab. Jab without moving your feet, without pivoting, without using the hips, without putting body weight behind the punch vs trying to depend on the weight of an arm. If a person weights 125 and has a powerful punch, then I can tell you without doubt that it's not the weight of the arm making the difference.


I hit people with slow stuff all the time. If you have a good set up then you don't have to rely on speed so much. I'm not special either. Boxers hit people with slow stuff all the time too. They also hit people with fast shots. The better I can set my opponent up the more likely I will be able to hit my opponent regardless of the speed of the punch.


I never said anything about bad jabs. Bad jabs and slow jabs are 2 different things.

Here you can see Larry holmes throw jabs of various speeds and purposes. Some fast some slow. Just because the punch is slow doesn't mean it's bad.

when your not fighting Larry Holmes or any other good class boxer a good jab is faster then most people can react to, even boxer have trouble with it, that makes a fast jab a free shot that will land every time, it SHOULD also cause damage, the last time i jabbed someone in anger it split his eye wide open (and he backed off fast), that the minimum to expect, you've just hit him with a lb weight attached to a heavier arm, thats some what heavier than a base ball bat, all you've got to do is propel it at sufficient speed

all your points can be summued as physics dont apply to me or my martial art

nb if your hitting people with slow punches your fighting slow people, which judging by your condition vid sounds about right, someone who is fast will have jabbed your 4 times whilst your getting there, thats both eyes closed, a flat nose and some dental work

 

[JowGaWolf]

when your not fighting Larry Holmes or any other good class boxer a good jab is faster then most people can react to, even boxer have trouble with it, that makes a fast jab a free shot that will land every time, it SHOULD also cause damage, the last time i jabbed someone in anger it split his eye wide open (and he backed off fast), that the minimum to expect, you've just hit him with a lb weight attached to a heavier arm, thats some what heavier than a base ball bat, all you've got to do is propel it at sufficient speed

all your points can be summued as physics dont apply to me or my martial art

I don't even know what you are talking about here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

nb if your hitting people with slow punches your fighting slow people, which judging by your condition vid sounds about right, someone who is fast will have jabbed your 4 times whilst your getting there, thats both eyes closed, a flat nose and some dental work

I fought fast people before as well. Larry Holmes fought people who were fast and he hit them with slow jabs as well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

MMA clips where you can see some slow jabs land and I"m not talking about the slow motion part.

nb if your hitting people with slow punches your fighting slow people, which judging by your condition vid sounds

Problem here isn't the video. The problem here is that you don't understand conditioning isn't fighting.

The reason I showed larry holmes video with him throwing slow jabs is because, some people like to try to personalize things So instead about the reality. It turns personal about me eating 4 jabs and some dental work.

Pawing Jabs