Any good advice to a non ground fighter??

[Hanzou]

Not "substitute" but "addition". The ground skill and biting doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

biting + ground skill > ground skill
biting + nothing > nothing

When a Judo guy trains "single leg", he will not try to substitute his Judo by "single leg".

single leg + Judo > judo

There isn't any skill involved in biting. People bite others with no training whatsoever. Those SC guys took the biting route because they lacked the skill to counter the Judo newaza with technique.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There isn't any skill involved in biting. People bite others with no training whatsoever. Those SC guys took the biting route because they lacked the skill to counter the Judo newaza with technique.

People also punch and choke each other with no training.

Every human activity can be done with more or less skill. People have gotten amazingly good at just about anything you can imagine. (Ever see videos of championship cup stacking?) I don't see why biting would be any different. Paul Vunak has some interesting ideas on building biting skills.

This is not to say that the SC folks in question necessarily had developed their biting skills to any high degree, but it's certainly possible.

 

[Hanzou]

People also punch and choke each other with no training.

Yeah, but there's a marked difference between skilled and unskilled punching and choking. I don't see a marked difference in biting skill between a "skilled" practicioner, or an "unskilled" practitioner.

Every human activity can be done with more or less skill. People have gotten amazingly good at just about anything you can imagine. (Ever see videos of championship cup stacking?) I don't see why biting would be any different. Paul Vunak has some interesting ideas on building biting skills.

This is not to say that the SC folks in question necessarily had developed their biting skills to any high degree, but it's certainly possible.

Yeah, I've seen Paul's biting stuff, and I stand by the notion that you're better off learning the counters to various holds and locks. Not only are they more reliable than biting, but it gives you a higher chance of regaining control of the situation without escalating the violence while in an inferior position.

For example, if you bite my leg while I have you in an arm bar, you got a pretty good chance of me snapping you arm. Probably higher than before you bit me.

 

[marques]

It sounds like you are talking about Do-jime, which is banned in Judo for some reason.

It's not likely to get great results against anyone who has a strong core or is bigger than you.

Thank you!!
Now I know the name and know why it is not seen more often (maybe it can damage liver and spleen, ribs...). And yes, that's it!!
With strong people or big people still can work if you can 'to join' your legs and use surprise... Even if it only work with 20% of people is still great. Easy, useful, fast, no risk...

This looks better (on free ribs):

The defense is hold breath (that works for a while) and/or turn the body (when possible). Or to be too fat.

 

[Steve]

Thank you!!
Now I know the name and know why it is not seen more often (maybe it can damage liver and spleen, ribs...). And yes, that's it!!
With strong people or big people still can work if you can 'to join' your legs and use surprise... Even if it only work with 20% of people is still great. Easy, useful, fast, no risk...

This looks better (on free ribs):

The defense is hold breath (that works for a while) and/or turn the body (when possible). Or to be too fat.

Or you can use good technique to force your opponent to open his guard.

 

[drop bear]

Or you can use good technique to force your opponent to open his guard.

Or sit back on your heels

 

[Hanzou]

Or sit back on your heels

There's no Hip bump sweep in Judo?

 

[drop bear]

There's no Hip bump sweep in Judo?

No idea.

 

[Chrisoro]

There's no Hip bump sweep in Judo?

Officially, there are only 29 ne-waza techniques in Kodokan Judo(just as there are only 67 different official throws) , based on what's in katas such as Katame-no-kata and other techniques found to be usefull in Kano's time. In practice, however, everything that employs Judo's concepts of leverage, balance breaking, maximum effect with minimum power, etc., and which fit within the limits of judo competition rules, is judo.

If you look in the books of Judo greats such as Kyuzu Mifune, you'll see a bunch of techniques that aren't in the list of the official 29 ne-waza techniques, which just shows that Judo was a living and developing art back then just as it is now. Comparing competition footage from the sixties and today, clearly shows this, and looking at old videos from competitions held under the Kosen-ruleset(highschool judo with an emphasis of groundfighting in order to minimize injury potential), you'll see a lot of techniques that would remind you of what is used in BJJ today.

 

[Hanzou]

Officially, there are only 29 ne-waza techniques in Kodokan Judo(just as there are only 67 different official throws) , based on what's in katas such as Katame-no-kata and other techniques found to be usefull in Kano's time. In practice, however, everything that employs Judo's concepts of leverage, balance breaking, maximum effect with minimum power, etc., and which fit within the limits of judo competition rules, is judo.

If you look in the books of Judo greats such as Kyuzu Mifune, you'll see a bunch of techniques that aren't in the list of the official 29 ne-waza techniques, which just shows that Judo was a living and developing art back then just as it is now. Comparing competition footage from the sixties and today, clearly shows this, and looking at old videos from competitions held under the Kosen-ruleset(highschool judo with an emphasis of groundfighting in order to minimize injury potential), you'll see a lot of techniques that would remind you of what is used in BJJ today.

So the answer would be no.

Gotcha.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So the answer would be no.

Gotcha.

That's not what he said.

The hip bump sweep is not part of the official list of techniques in Kodokan Judo. However, there is significantly more to Judo than the official list of techniques.

 

[Chrisoro]

So the answer would be no.

Gotcha.

1. Kodokan isn´t the only judo authority in the world, not the one who decides how and what is taught everywhere, nor the only one who issues IJF-recognized dan degrees in Judo.
2. Taking my answer above as a "no", is akin to saying with a straight face that anything that has happened in BJJ since the original 40 lesson self defense course held by Carlos and Helio at the original academy, isn´t BJJ. (Yes, I am aware that Maeda taught others as well as the Gracies.)

 

[Koshiki]

I don't really want to re-open this can of worms, but...

As a dedicated stand-up guy with zero ground skills (ok, not zero, but close enough!), as a guy who loves to spout out about how you should never got to the ground, and when there, getting back up is your first priority, as that guy, I've got to say this.

1. I put more time into the ground than my school in general, so that tells you something about how much my school is not ground fighters. However, there is a final portion of our test from Red belt to Black, the most strenuous test. You do all your pretty kata, you do sets of applied bunkai, a majority of them going to the ground, many of them with rudimentary ground defense, you spar for half an hour in continuous two minute rounds with fresh opponents, and THEN. Then, before you get your belt, the biggest black belt there gets on you in mount, and you have to get out from under to get your belt. The fact that a stand up school puts THAT as the coup de gras of the Black belt test shows what an absolutely essential skill getting out of mount is. If you've been mounted and you can't get out, unless your a skilled ground guy, you've lost. It's possibly the most dominant position you are likely to encounter, in general terms, aside from a back mount.

2. Biting. I don't discount it, but there are three major objections, no of them to be ignored.

-If you can bite, your opponent can bite, and if biting is your last ditch defense, you're already losing. Don't introduce the concept of biting at that point. There's a good chance he can bite something too, and if he's got control, he can probably bite something worse.

-Pain compliance requires, wait for it, compliance. We can quibble about whether a chunk of missing leg hurts more than a broken elbow, but in the end, he's missing some skin, you're missing a functional arm. You're gambling, hard core if you go the "who'll give up first route," and if the other guy's savvy at odds, he knows who has more to lose. Sure, bite if you have to, but don't in any way think it's likely to help you avoid getting your arm broken, neck cranked, or lose consciousness. So let's say it's an armbar, you bite a chunk out, he breaks your arm, you both scream and disengage, and stand back up to continue the fight. He just sacrificed a pawn for your queen. Can you still win? Yeah, but if you weren't doing well with two arms, i don't fancy your chances with one. And even if you do, a broken arm victory is Pyrrhic at best.

-Depending on where you bite, be prepared to lose teeth. I learned at, I don't know, about eight years old that if you're wrestling and a kid decides to chomp on a forearm, you don't pull away. You push in, you grind your forearm into their mouth, and quickly they decide that the last thing they want in their mouth is your arm. If it's a leg, you better hope they don't twitch and bash your teeth in, and your head of the floor.


The takeaway is this. If you're truly training for self defense, and if you want to be able to fight at your preferred range, you need to learn a bit about the other ranges.

Closing distance on a ranged striker is far easier and requires far less knowledge than beating a ranged striker at long distance. If you're not a ranged striker (I'm not) learn enough to survive there for two seconds and get to your preferred range. Or run, they're already six feet away!

Getting space from a close fighter, or taking them down is far easier and requires far less knowledge of infighting than beating an infighter in a clinch. I know. I'm pretty good at fighting from anything in the range from chest to chest to about three feet away, especially if I have contact. break contact and create space, and I'm in trouble. Take me down and I'm in trouble. If you're not an infighter, learn enough about clinching and arm control and restricted striking to survive for two seconds and get to your preferred range.

And finally, this is the one where we seem to run into trouble in the upright fighting world. If you're dealing with a ground fighter, there's a solid chance they can take you down. You need to know what to do when you're down there. Now, you don't need to know enough to win a ground fight against a ground fighter on the ground. To do that, you need to be a better ground fighter, or lucky. (Or insanely vicious, that unfortunately counts for a lot.) But you do need to learn enough legitimate ground fighting to survive for a few seconds and get back on your feet.

You wouldn't substitute biting at flying fists and clawing and groin strikes for a bit of training in ranged striking, because at that range, the ranged striker can do all those things better. You wouldn't substitute those "dirty" tricks for in fighting, 'cause guess what, if you're not an infighter, we can do all those things better when we're locked up close, and we can better position your teeth where we want them.

So you can't expect it to be a viable strategy against a ground fighter. Ground fighting is the range at which the skilled practitioner has the most control, because the ground is a wall severely limiting movement. If you can't control them enough to not get mounted, arm barred, choked, etc, then there's a good chance they can control you enough to not get bitten, or at least to bite you somewhere better.

Now, should you completely discount bites? No. They're a weapon, if a messy one. I wouldn't suggest removing any other pain compliance from your repertoire either. But it is simply not going to substitute for a modicum of skill in the various ranges.

Especially when it comes to ground fighting. Ground fighters are fast, but the pace and duration of a ground fight is generally far slower and more drawn out than upright fights. This gives people more time for clarity of thought. Sudden pain from a bite in a strike fight might give you that split second of pause to get in a good chin shot, especially since minds are racing and things are moving at 50 miles an hour, or however fast fists travel. In a ground fight, the better fighter can immobilize things to the point where not much is moving. The amount of mental clarity is higher, and your bite might create a much more rational reaction, in other words, not a spazzy flinch, but a concerted determination to hurt you more, and faster.

----------

I just want to say once more, I'm a stand up guy. I suck at the ground. But really, if you want to have some answer to being mounted, learn a little bit about the ground. You don't need a BJJ black belt, but you do need more than agility, struggling, and biting.

 

[Kenpoguy123]

Sorry but all the people suggesting. Buck your hips control the torso. Stuff like that, if you try that in a real situation without training you're going to get hurt. You need to go easy and simple. Scratch the eyes, rip the ears, hit the throat, grab the groin, bite whatever you can reach. That will get them off you. Look at these mma guys if someone even touches their eye their on the ground in pain

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sorry but all the people suggesting. Buck your hips control the torso. Stuff like that, if you try that in a real situation without training you're going to get hurt. You need to go easy and simple. Scratch the eyes, rip the ears, hit the throat, grab the groin, bite whatever you can reach. That will get them off you. Look at these mma guys if someone even touches their eye their on the ground in pain

Against an untrained opponent, that might work or might get you hurt worse. Against someone trained that's going to get you knocked out or get your arm broken.

Serious offer here. Come to my gym and try starting out under my mount and I'll give you permission to attack the eyes/ears/groin, bite or what have you. You can do them for real, not just simulate. I'll even be nice and not do any of those things back to you. I'll even start out hitting light so you have a chance to evaluate whether you want to keep trying those things.

Important note - do not try any of those with a training partner who has not agreed in advance to let you try them. If you try eye gouging me and we haven't agreed that's okay, then I will be taking your arm off as a souvenir.

Edit - I don't want to run afoul of the "no challenges" rule. This isn't a challenge to a fight. It's an offer to experiment and see what escapes work from a certain position.

 

[Kenpoguy123]

Against an untrained opponent, that might work or might get you hurt worse. Against someone trained that's going to get you knocked out or get your arm broken.

Serious offer here. Come to my gym and try starting out under my mount and I'll give you permission to attack the eyes/ears/groin, bite or what have you. You can do them for real, not just simulate. I'll even be nice and not do any of those things back to you. I'll even start out hitting light so you have a chance to evaluate whether you want to keep trying those things.

Important note - do not try any of those with a training partner who has not agreed in advance to let you try them. If you try eye gouging me and we haven't agreed that's okay, then I will be taking your arm off as a souvenir.

Against an untrained opponent, that might work or might get you hurt worse. Against someone trained that's going to get you knocked out or get your arm broken.

Serious offer here. Come to my gym and try starting out under my mount and I'll give you permission to attack the eyes/ears/groin, bite or what have you. You can do them for real, not just simulate. I'll even be nice and not do any of those things back to you. I'll even start out hitting light so you have a chance to evaluate whether you want to keep trying those things.

Important note - do not try any of those with a training partner who has not agreed in advance to let you try them. If you try eye gouging me and we haven't agreed that's okay, then I will be taking your arm off as a souvenir.

Lol do you really think I'm going to pay to go travel to some random guy from the internets gym.

So your telling me that anyone who trains can take getting eye poked. Look at all these mma guys they get a glancing groin shot and they're done on the ground for 5 minutes. Or if anyone even gets a touch on the eyes they're covering their eyes in pain

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Lol do you really think I'm going to pay to go travel to some random guy from the internets gym.

Nah, but if you're ever in the area you're welcome to come by. I'll even cover the mat fee for you. If you're not anywhere close, you might be able to find a BJJ instructor in your area who is up for the experiment.

So your telling me that anyone who trains can take getting eye poked.

Not exactly. I'm telling you that

a) if I'm mounted on you I'm not going to let you eye poke me and
b) if you do manage somehow to eye poke me I am in a position to immediately return the pain three-fold.

This isn't really theoretical for me. I've been doing martial arts for 34 years, groundfighting for 20 years. I've been eye poked and I've been hit in the groin. They both really suck, but they won't make me give up the mounted position. Also, I don't need to see in order to finish someone on the ground. It's all a matter of feel. I can and frequently do tap people out with my eyes closed. I've even armbarred someone with my eyes shut from an accidental eye poke. (The eye poke happened while we were standing, but I was able to get hold of him and complete the takedown by feel.)

Look at all these mma guys they get a glancing groin shot and they're done on the ground for 5 minutes. Or if anyone even gets a touch on the eyes they're covering their eyes in pain

Like Yuki Nakai? Gerard Gordeau permanently blinded him in one eye with an illegal eye gouge in their fight. Nakai still won the match by submission.

Eye pokes and groin shots are damaging attacks that are illegal in MMA. When a fighter receives one of those shots (accidentally or not) in the standup portion of the fight, they generally play up the effects so that the ref will notice and give them a little recovery time and they won't have to trade strikes with an opponent while half blind. When the ref doesn't see it, they keep fighting. I've seen fighters win fights while suffering from the effects of groin strikes and eye pokes.

In any case, you'll notice that these groin strikes/eye pokes never happen to the fighter on top of mount.

 

[Jenna]

@Zack Cart, hey there I think your points are well put and all have merit thank you! Do you think at all though that these depend a deal on individual pain thresholds which not only vary from one individual to another and but also vary for any given individual in differing situations.. I mean I do not want him to feel the bite pain only after he is all done with me because he is too full of adrenaline to notice it when he is on top of me.. Does this make sense? You know you some times only notice fight injuries when you are getting fixed up afterwards yes?

So that is why I would prefer the simplest mechanical means as I had asked in OP in order to get him off of me so I can get up, Jx

 

[drop bear]

@Zack Cart, hey there I think your points are well put and all have merit thank you! Do you think at all though that these depend a deal on individual pain thresholds which not only vary from one individual to another and but also vary for any given individual in differing situations.. I mean I do not want him to feel the bite pain only after he is all done with me because he is too full of adrenaline to notice it when he is on top of me.. Does this make sense? You know you some times only notice fight injuries when you are getting fixed up afterwards yes?

So that is why I would prefer the simplest mechanical means as I had asked in OP in order to get him off of me so I can get up, Jx

If you know the mechanics. You will be able to street more effectively.

You can't just be under there chewing off an ear with no plan. It has to be working towards the goal of getting up. Getting up has all these structural rules that you have to follow. (Until you know the rules well enough to not follow them but that is a different story)

The last time I got eyegouges from the top it did stuff all. Unless you can secure the head I am not sure how you get much damage. The guy on top with gravity and position could eyegouge you back and generally win.

That was my head after I had been eye gouged. My face was a bit prettied up. But no major damage.

 

[Koshiki]

@Zack Cart, hey there I think your points are well put and all have merit thank you! Do you think at all though that these depend a deal on individual pain thresholds which not only vary from one individual to another and but also vary for any given individual in differing situations.. I mean I do not want him to feel the bite pain only after he is all done with me because he is too full of adrenaline to notice it when he is on top of me.. Does this make sense? You know you some times only notice fight injuries when you are getting fixed up afterwards yes?

So that is why I would prefer the simplest mechanical means as I had asked in OP in order to get him off of me so I can get up, Jx

That was kind of the main point of my post. Biting, scratching, pinching, tickling, gouging, etc. all only work if three things are true:
1. You do them well and in time.
2. The other guys notices in time.
3. He decides to stop whatever he's doing instead of just do it more.

It's not exactly the best plan.

A better plan is to spend a little time learning how to physically move him off of you. If pain-compliance is then an add-on that you train to possibly assist with your already functional technique, then sure. Just don't expect that pinching a little skin on a guy's waist is going to get him off you. And yes, I've seen that taught as amount escape!

So yes, I think it depends entirely on people's various pain thresholds, which is why I advocate against pain compliance as a general strategy.