All kinds of requirements to rip students off! Is this normal?

[drop bear]

Ahh but the "MMA is best" people will try to tell you otherwise.

Unless you are wearing a belt. Then the entire mechanics of fighting changes.

 

[Juany118]

So competition is your measurement of how to judge good karate? I am totally fine with that but I suspect many karateka would disagree. And would note that most of the competition that many karate schools (or TKD or Kenpo or whatever) now compete in is a far cry from what the scrum that is a real fight.

That was kinda my point with how you spar actually. Fights don't go punch>block>kick>block>punch>punch>point "break!"

Fights don't even always go until one side quits/taps out. I fight usually goes balls to the wall until one or both parties are literally incapable of continuing, it gets broken up by A LOT of people (or authority figures) or one person seeing an opening to run like their life depended on it. Also, not always but often, the point method of sparring tends to have people focused on simply hitting and not getting hit. This dynamic means that often your strikes aren't as strong as they could be. In a real fight you can't be afraid to take a hit because it may cost you a point. Instead you need to be willing to let your butt hang in the breeze a bit not only so you can land serious hits but minimize the risk of handing the initiative to the other guy.

This isn't to say point fighting is completely without benefit. Example, often a competition will, based on points, force you to execute a balance of techniques (like some Must Thai I have seen) or force you to focus on the key techniques (I have seen Savate competitions where 3 punches in a row is still only worth one point, same as a single punch, they must be broken up with kicks and knees.) This can be good, especially for new students, in adapting to a new martial art.

 

[Phobius]

Ok maybe there are good reasons not to tell the exact price right away.
But the first impression which I get from that is negative. If I feel being ripped off
then I also wouldnt feel comfortable going there. Then it wouldnt work.

I have the solution for you. Don't train martial art at all. Truth is you do not have what it takes.

You have a problem with risk of being ripped off or selecting the wrong school. Imagine the problems you will go through deciding whether to dodge left or right in a fight.

As for feeling ripped off, you get more ripped off driving your car. More ripped off when buying food, heck even paying for your place to live. You get ripped off paying taxes, eating at a restaurant, working.... heck you get ripped off by just breathing as someone is polluting the air at the expense of your health.

This is all business. And your teacher will never go on an 8 week vacation, reason being following:

1. He lives and breath Kung Fu. (hopefully).
2. He can not afford it.
3. He has a business to run and if students do not pay an additional 12 months then he will be unable to eat in a years time.
4. He wants his students to become great so they can become instructors and help out as well.

You however still fall into the category "currently not suited for martial arts training". Either prove us wrong or stay away from martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So any method anybody comes up with is as valid as any other method.

Where is that ww3 guy when people are saying this?

Because people were apparently incorrectly saying his method was flawed.

Strawman argument.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not if all styles are equal.

Nobody said that. You're doing again what you've denied doing in the past: you are overstating someone's point (strawman fallacy) in order to be able to argue against it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unfortunately there isn't much of a selection process in martial arts these days. The sport martial arts have a great method of testing out there material in a competitive method, everyone who doesn't play in those arenas has no such guarantees. The crap that is out there is unbelievable, and long lived, the very survival and continued propagation of the kiddie karate franchises attest to that.

Actually, competition is no guarantee of quality, beyond it being a good match for the sport in question. There are some competitions out there that feature what I'd call crappy martial arts, except that it's perfectly suited to that particular competition. Some competitions test the "fightability" of a system, while others only test the ability to win that particular type of competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No one or two or five gyms/kwoons/dojos/whatever prove or disprove the validity of an entire art. How do you test the validity of what a MMA gym teaches? You ask who the fighters are and what their fight records are. Oh, you don't produce fighters? Hmmm, that should raise red flags.

How do you do it for a karate studio? How do you do it for Joe Bob's Tactical Fisticuffs that just opened up with all the new evolved fighting method?

You're assuming that the only valid purpose for MMA is MMA competition. There's a legitimate argument for MMA as a self-defense training method. Many folks training for self-defense have no interest in the beatings and injuries inherent in heavy competition (I train specifically to avoid getting things like head injuries). If someone was training folks MMA-style without entering them in competitions (perhaps only rolling/sparring within the school) that need not be a red flag, unless you are planning to compete.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

3. Listen to how they describe their style of teaching. Do they say "street encounters" or "combatives" vs "self defense", "competition" and "discipline". If they say things similar to the first 2 ask them if they teach outside the school. If they say they do seminars and blocks of instruction for local, state or federal LE (which can be verified rather easily) you are probably on the right track. Don't be afraid to ask if they have experience in real defense situations.

Why do you consider "combatives" a better vocabulary word than "self-defense"? I know very few instructors who wouldn't consider those interchangeable - the former more "in vogue" today than the latter. And the use of the word "discipline" is not a bad thing - I'd want any instructor (teaching long-term students) to use that term, unless they teach with a very loose hand.

It sounds like you're expecting them to know your script. I know an instructor who has taught DT at three different states' police academies (changing states as he moved over the last 20 years). He would use the term "self-defense". He is a retired LEO and has plenty of experience using the techniques he teaches, but I've never (even when he was talking to other LEO's) heard him use the term "combatives" or "street encounters".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So competition is your measurement of how to judge good karate? I am totally fine with that but I suspect many karateka would disagree. And would note that most of the competition that many karate schools (or TKD or Kenpo or whatever) now compete in is a far cry from what the scrum that is a real fight.

So, what do you suggest is a valid test of an art? I don't know any competitions that really look much like a real fight. MMA is about as close as you get, from what I've seen.

 

[Danny T]

And what also bothers me is that most websites do NOT even tell you the exact prices they only give you vague ranges telling you that the exact price can be discussed when you go there for free training.

Why not simply tell the people how much it costs in the first place? Why try to lure them into the school first?!

I don't list my prices on my website nor will I discuss price over the phone unless you have actually come in and done some complimentary training.
I want you know what you are getting, I want you to meet the staff and talk with them, I want you to meet some of the other students/members and speak with them. I want you to meet and speak with some of the instructors/coaches. I want you to actually see and experience what we have to offer. Then we will talk about the different membership options we have available and the associated cost. I want you have first hand knowledge of what you are purchasing.
If you don't come in you will never know if my price is of any value.
Also 'IF' you only come in because of price you will also leave because of price. I want members who value what we have to offer.

 

[Juany118]

Why do you consider "combatives" a better vocabulary word than "self-defense"? I know very few instructors who wouldn't consider those interchangeable - the former more "in vogue" today than the latter. And the use of the word "discipline" is not a bad thing - I'd want any instructor (teaching long-term students) to use that term, unless they teach with a very loose hand.

It sounds like you're expecting them to know your script. I know an instructor who has taught DT at three different states' police academies (changing states as he moved over the last 20 years). He would use the term "self-defense". He is a retired LEO and has plenty of experience using the techniques he teaches, but I've never (even when he was talking to other LEO's) heard him use the term "combatives" or "street encounters".

I have just found a difference in experience tbh. Most people who study martial arts, today, will say "self defense" even if they, or their students, have never known a blow to have been struck in anger. However, again purely anecdotal your mileage may vary, those who can point to real world experience use the terms "street encounters" or "combatives" can draw on direct experience. I also do not find discipline a bad thing...but I see and have heard the heads of schools dodge the two terms I previously mentioned and instead focus on discipline. Again just my personal experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have just found a difference in experience tbh. Most people who study martial arts, today, will say "self defense" even if they, or their students, have never known a blow to have been struck in anger. However, again purely anecdotal your mileage may vary, those who can point to real world experience use the terms "street encounters" or "combatives" can draw on direct experience. I also do not find discipline a bad thing...but I see and have heard the heads of schools dodge the two terms I previously mentioned and instead focus on discipline. Again just my personal experience.

Interesting. The only folks I've run into who use the term "combatives" are teaching Gracie Combatives (or something similar). It's a marketing term for them. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

 

[Blindside]

So, what do you suggest is a valid test of an art? I don't know any competitions that really look much like a real fight. MMA is about as close as you get, from what I've seen.

There isn't much of one these days, which is part of my point, there are few crucibles that really test people anymore. What I find is that schools that test themselves in sport arenas have an approach to their training that is different, they understand resistance, they incorporate it into the not-sport side of things. Or at least they do it more often.

You're assuming that the only valid purpose for MMA is MMA competition. There's a legitimate argument for MMA as a self-defense training method. Many folks training for self-defense have no interest in the beatings and injuries inherent in heavy competition (I train specifically to avoid getting things like head injuries). If someone was training folks MMA-style without entering them in competitions (perhaps only rolling/sparring within the school) that need not be a red flag, unless you are planning to compete.

I don't think everyone needs to compete, I do think that there needs to be regular infusions of a fighter's experience into a system otherwise it can go off the rails into fantasy land. Most of the guys in my group are ex-Judo guys, they innately undestand resistance training even though what I teach is Kali. I have been participating in Dog Brothers and other similar events for several years now to build my own experience in the fight game and several of my guys have also participated in Gatherings. I actually have an internal policy for my club that to become a full instructor you will participate in a DB Gathering (exceptions for health/age reasons), I want my instructors to experience fighting strangers who they don't trust, it isn't a real fight but it is more like it than most things I can simulate.

 

[Juany118]

Interesting. The only folks I've run into who use the term "combatives" are teaching Gracie Combatives (or something similar). It's a marketing term for them. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

My Guro/Sifu's day job is being the CEO of a consultancy that teaches everything from sex crimes and interrogation to unarmed combatives to firearms training. That may also have something to do with it since, as I understand it, Gracie Combatives have a similar LE focus.

In the end my point really was (and it may have been missed) "know what you are really looking for, ask specific questions, expect similarly specific answers. If you don't get them (one way or the other) move on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There isn't much of one these days, which is part of my point, there are few crucibles that really test people anymore. What I find is that schools that test themselves in sport arenas have an approach to their training that is different, they understand resistance, they incorporate it into the not-sport side of things. Or at least they do it more often.



I don't think everyone needs to compete, I do think that there needs to be regular infusions of a fighter's experience into a system otherwise it can go off the rails into fantasy land. Most of the guys in my group are ex-Judo guys, they innately undestand resistance training even though what I teach is Kali. I have been participating in Dog Brothers and other similar events for several years now to build my own experience in the fight game and several of my guys have also participated in Gatherings. I actually have an internal policy for my club that to become a full instructor you will participate in a DB Gathering (exceptions for health/age reasons), I want my instructors to experience fighting strangers who they don't trust, it isn't a real fight but it is more like it than most things I can simulate.

Okay, I see where you're coming from. My argument would be that what works in a competition is not necessarily what works in the street. I do like getting an infusion from someone trained to compete (even if it's just a sparring-heavy school), like a student I have now who trained 8 years in Shotokan with tons of sparring. I also want infusions from time to time from folks who have street experiences from a reasonable basis (LEO's, bouncers, etc.). The former brings me people who question our approach (which I value), because we teach how to avoid the resistance rather than always having to overcome it. The latter group brings a perspective that's more realistic - not dealing with people who are trained to counter your moves and know to some extent what you're about to try.

When I was in my 30's, I could play with Judo players. If they had equal training and skill in their art, they'd beat me (because we're playing their game), but I held my own. But that was me working against someone trained to stop me from throwing them, someone who understands the basic counters to grappling moves and can recognize most of the techniques coming their way. That's not reality on the street.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My Guro/Sifu's day job is being the CEO of a consultancy that teaches everything from sex crimes and interrogation to unarmed combatives to firearms training. That may also have something to do with it since, as I understand it, Gracie Combatives have a similar LE focus.

In the end my point really was (and it may have been missed) "know what you are really looking for, ask specific questions, expect similarly specific answers. If you don't get them (one way or the other) move on.

You made your point quite well, actually. I just wanted to dig a bit at your reasoning for that part of it. I like to make sure I understand how people react to different wording, so I'm speaking to the right audience when marketing. I don't want everyone - just the folks who will get exactly what they need/want from what I teach.

 

[Juany118]

You made your point quite well, actually. I just wanted to dig a bit at your reasoning for that part of it. I like to make sure I understand how people react to different wording, so I'm speaking to the right audience when marketing. I don't want everyone - just the folks who will get exactly what they need/want from what I teach.

And this is perfect tbh. I know dang well my requirements are different than 95% of the people out there, at the moment, when I retire they will change (thank God) My point was more to clarify that the questions I asked were specific to my needs and people need to focus on "their needs" and apply some critical thinking when they listen to the responses.

 

[Blindside]

When I was in my 30's, I could play with Judo players. If they had equal training and skill in their art, they'd beat me (because we're playing their game), but I held my own. But that was me working against someone trained to stop me from throwing them, someone who understands the basic counters to grappling moves and can recognize most of the techniques coming their way. That's not reality on the street.

One of the problems with many "self-defense instructors" is that they don't know what "the street" is. I don't. I have been in two fist fights in my adult life, I have talked down an angry guy with a machete at close range. I have done all the good good self-defense techniques of "don't be an *******" and "live in a decent neighborhood" and "avoid young males drinking alcohol" and "verbal deesclation" that I haven't had to do the "reality on the street" too often. So I don't train for the untrained guy on the street, I train for a competent adversary, one that knows how to punch, grapple, and use a variety of weapons, I figure if I can deal with that then "the street" should be easier.

 

[drop bear]

That was kinda my point with how you spar actually. Fights don't go punch>block>kick>block>punch>punch>point "break!"

Fights don't even always go until one side quits/taps out. I fight usually goes balls to the wall until one or both parties are literally incapable of continuing, it gets broken up by A LOT of people (or authority figures) or one person seeing an opening to run like their life depended on it. Also, not always but often, the point method of sparring tends to have people focused on simply hitting and not getting hit. This dynamic means that often your strikes aren't as strong as they could be. In a real fight you can't be afraid to take a hit because it may cost you a point. Instead you need to be willing to let your butt hang in the breeze a bit not only so you can land serious hits but minimize the risk of handing the initiative to the other guy.

This isn't to say point fighting is completely without benefit. Example, often a competition will, based on points, force you to execute a balance of techniques (like some Must Thai I have seen) or force you to focus on the key techniques (I have seen Savate competitions where 3 punches in a row is still only worth one point, same as a single punch, they must be broken up with kicks and knees.) This can be good, especially for new students, in adapting to a new martial art.

I don't think the point system in say, muay Thai has anything near the sort of effect you are suggesting.

A knock out will still win a fight regardless of points. This is exactly the same as a real fight.

Knock outs can also be achieved without having to stand and trade. Or hanging your butt out in the breeze as you said. You can "real fight"smart and safely if you want. You choose how you want to fight.

 

[Blindside]

I don't think the point system in say, muay Thai has anything near the sort of effect you are suggesting.

A knock out will still win a fight regardless of points. This is exactly the same as a real fight.

Knock outs can also be achieved without having to stand and trade. Or hanging your butt out in the breeze as you said. You can "real fight"smart and safely if you want. You choose how you want to fight.

I think he is referring to karate style stop and go point fighting.