‘aliveness’ in martial arts training

[Dark]

OK, so you train with strange crack addicts in a parking lot? I doubt it. Look, we all know that "on the street" there are no rules and that you are likely to get surprised. The question is how do you best prepare for it.

Two things, one there are rules to the street and if you don't know you will get hurt. That there are no rules to the street is a bunch of crap some idiot came to make up for the fact they have never been their.

So how do you prepare for blind attacks and multiple opponents? Do you say "OK stand there and somebody will come up from behind and grab your shoulder and then you will spin around, kick, then punch"? No. You have the person grab you from behind, you escape/evade, then you spar. Sparring is a great way to build up endurance.

That would be the reason for wacking my students with wiffle bats when they aren't paying attention to their enviromant. That would be the reason for just bumb rushing a student for no apparent reason.

The above exercises teach to keep your guard up, which in the wrong enviroments will get you killed.

Trust me, I know the purpose of Kata. And if you want to do analogies about baby steps, then let's do it: How do you teach a baby to walk? Do you tell him to take 3 steps left, turn around, take 3 steps right, face left, take 3 steps forward...? No, you just let the baby walk.

Apparently not, for example Gichin Funakoshi the founder of Shotokan, only taught 15 kata, that includes the waza as well. After his death there was an exaduration of kata and some 26 more forms where added. Check out;

http://www.authenticshotokan.com/shotokan_kata.htm
http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/

and I think you need to read this:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/sportmartialarts.html

Most kung-fu styles only contain one form, many styles of Okinawan-Te have only one to 5 forms in total. The word Kumite means free sparring, or free fighting and didn't involve pads. Just because you swing a bat in baseball, doesn't mean you are a stickfighter.

 

[Andrew Green]

Apparently not, for example Gichin Funakoshi the founder of Shotokan, only taught 15 kata, that includes the waza as well. After his death there was an exaduration of kata and some 26 more forms where added. Check out;

err... 15 original + 26 added = 26 that are there now?

 

[Dark]

err... 15 original + 26 added = 26 that are there now?

No 26 standardized thats the common ones between the USKA and the JKA and the other one. Depending on the org there is something like 40+

 

[Rook]

What does prepare people for "the street" better than alive, resistant training? People seem to like to attack the simulation for being less than perfect, while training at a far further distance from reality themselves.

 

[Explorer]

Y'know ... all this brings to mind the great small college football coach John Gagliardi from St. John's near St. Cloud, Minnesota. He's won more championships than almost any coach in college history ... and his players never did contact drills in practice. All thier hitting was at the game! Back in the old days the coach did things like everybody else and ended up losing one of his star players due to a practice field injury. He vowed he'd never do that to another player and the rest is history. He taught his players positioning, reading the play, reading the field, reading the other players ... decision making, really. The Johnnies just kept winning and winning and winning. The lack of hitting in practice had absolutely nothing to do with their level of performance in a real game situation.

Hmmm. I wonder if there are any paralells to MA? What do you guys think?

 

[FuriousGeorge]

I'de like to say...it seems to me like people are overthinking the concept. All aliveness means, as Matt intends it anyway, is training beyond the repition of preset patterns. Sparring is a major part of this because its the best approximation of a live fight we can produce in the gym.

Dark, the idea of bum rushing your students, or hitting them with wiffle bats to build awareness of their surroundings falls within this concept. It is throwing the unexpected at your students so they learn how to cope with the unpredictable variables.

Any kind of confrontation, be it a bjj competition or a down and dirty fight with a pcp addict in a parking lot, involves a complex set of variables--endurance, psychology, knowledge, strength, prowess, speed, etc.--kata and other isolation drills attempt to distill a few of these variables into a workable format for the purpose of learning technique, training in an alive manner simply means trying to approximate the whole set of variables to be better prepared for a true fight. No matter what you do, in the gym you will NEVER fully replicate this set of variables, especially since the variables change depending on which kind of confrontation you're in. But you're still better off with an approximation than having only isolation drills and kata under your belt.

When I was learning rear naked choke, I started by being shown the submission and trying it on a complient partner...of course I got it, it was easy...but then I tried with a resisting opponent...different game!!! The first time i took someone's back I was there trying to get my elbow in their throat, but they were pulling my arms away, turtling their neck, trying to get my hooks out, shifting and flailing to get out of the position, and my forearms were getting tired from holding their gi. I didn't even get close to submitting the guy. But from that experience, and many more like it, I have learned how to fight the guy's hands, how to keep my hooks in, how to hold the gi without exhaustin my arm, etc. In effect I learned how to deal with someone who's fighting the submission...I never would have learned this stuff from drills or kata, because it only arises during a live contest. Not to say there is not a lot to be gained from isolation drills or kata...at straight blast gym we do isolation drills all the time...but in the end we always bring it together with live sparring.

 

[Dark]

What does prepare people for "the street" better than alive, resistant training? People seem to like to attack the simulation for being less than perfect, while training at a far further distance from reality themselves.

No I'm all about the simulation, but sparring isn't simulation, it's sport?

Let me break down what I'm saying...
Most Likely Forms of Attack by Criminals...
Herding: Surround an intended victem, and use numbers.
Gang Assaults: Attacking in a gang and attacking from muliple angles centered on the target.
Blind Rushes: Sudden unexpected attackes.
Assaults with Weapons: Duh.
Combinations: Pick and mix basically...

The common answer I keep hearing is aliveness is Sparring. How does sparring prepare you for any of that? It doesn't, but the arguement only sparring works because sensei (sorry didn't catch the name) wrote an essay on Aliveness.
Progressive resistance isn't the problem, but it is a partial answer. The full answer is progressive resistance, combined with technical understanding and realistic training. Sparring isn't realistic training for what happens during assaults, rapes or other violent crimes.

What I'm attacking is the ignorance of limitation, willing limited yourself to only one course will leave you dead in the real world. As I've mention I attacked students with wiffle bats for no real reason, except that it prepares then for reality. Reality is letting your guard down will hurt you...

Sparring is a good step, but it's only a step... There is more, then sparring. For some reason the only thing people talk about is kata. Kata is a book and is good exercise but isn't there to do anything but teach concept. Sparring is good to, and needed if you expect to use your art on a functional level, but it is not nor will it ever recreate "the street."

Quick and dirty:
Kata is a book and an exercise, Sparring is a good step but it isn't the end of the answer and it will not prepare you to pay attention or keep your guard up at all times...

 

[FuriousGeorge]

No one is saying aliveness is sparring...aliveness is about approximating outside conditions to prepare as best as possible...at my gym, which is a sport gym, we accomplish this by sparring. We don't train for self defense, rape, assault, etc. because thats not what we're interested in.

You keep attacking the concept, but everything you say seems to be in line with it. For approximating true assault, rape conditions, you need to control for different variables, You may have a bunch of gym members attack a guy gang style or something...this IS alive training...Dead training as Matt defines it is repeating patterns without applying them to the most realistic simulation as possible. As I said above, every style of conflict has a different set of variables that you must prepare for whether its a UFC situation or a gang assault. Alive training simply means approximating the situation to train the practitioner to respond spontaneously should the real life thing ever occur.

 

[MJS]

Sparring is one way to train the aliveness concept, but its certainly not the only way. As I said in another post, the aliveness idea can be trained while working self defense techniques. An example of this would be to offer some resistance to your partner, rather than just standing still.

Mike

 

[Dark]

Any kind of confrontation, be it a bjj competition or a down and dirty fight with a pcp addict in a parking lot, involves a complex set of variables--endurance, psychology, knowledge, strength, prowess, speed, etc.--kata and other isolation drills attempt to distill a few of these variables into a workable format for the purpose of learning technique, training in an alive manner simply means trying to approximate the whole set of variables to be better prepared for a true fight.

But thats what your not getting, the pyschology issue. Like I said there are rules to "the street." And those rules can be replicated if you know the reality of what your talking about. The type of confrontation changes all those variables.

Lets look at a realistic mugging senario:
Victem walks to car, and an bumb askes for some change. When guy reaches in pocket the bumb stabs him in the gut and steals his wallet running away.

Worth case senario, right?

Nope, more like senario that happens on a regular basis. That has nothing to do with the confritation, but it does have to deal with pyschology and phylosophy. Now I've read the article and heard allot of stuff I didn't agree with. But so far all i've from everyone here but you on the other side of the arguement is "sparring prepares you for the real world" or "Kata is useless because."

I never heard anything in the article about the phycology or mental aspects of training, just a resisting partner. And some constantly heard comment about the UFC disproving things he doesn't like. Sorry if none of it impresses me. But, I'm survived some pretty bad stuff in my life some cop out on a resisting opponent means the sme old talk. That same arguement was how free style karate got started...

Want to impress go into pychological training as an aspect of alive. That was never covered just the same non-sense about how sports relates to the real world. Like I've said before just cause you play baseball doesn't mean your a stick fighter...

 

[Ceicei]

But thats what your not getting, the pyschology issue. Like I said there are rules to "the street." And those rules can be replicated if you know the reality of what your talking about. The type of confrontation changes all those variables.

Want to impress go into pychological training as an aspect of alive. That was never covered just the same non-sense about how sports relates to the real world. Like I've said before just cause you play baseball doesn't mean your a stick fighter...

Are you suggesting learning how an attacker might think and do? And how we might respond to these "cues"? If the nuances of human behavior can be duplicated or at least as closely as possible in the dojo, then that will go a long way in helping prepare the proper combat mindset.

- Ceicei

 

[MJS]

But thats what your not getting, the pyschology issue. Like I said there are rules to "the street." And those rules can be replicated if you know the reality of what your talking about. The type of confrontation changes all those variables.

Maybe I'm just not reading this right, but could you explain this? I think I have an idea as to what you're saying, but would just like some clarification.

Nope, more like senario that happens on a regular basis. That has nothing to do with the confritation, but it does have to deal with pyschology and phylosophy. Now I've read the article and heard allot of stuff I didn't agree with. But so far all i've from everyone here but you on the other side of the arguement is "sparring prepares you for the real world" or "Kata is useless because."

Well, speaking for myself only here, I've said that sparring is only one aspect of training. As far as kata go, I don't recall that I said that they were useless.

I never heard anything in the article about the phycology or mental aspects of training, just a resisting partner. And some constantly heard comment about the UFC disproving things he doesn't like. Sorry if none of it impresses me. But, I'm survived some pretty bad stuff in my life some cop out on a resisting opponent means the sme old talk. That same arguement was how free style karate got started...

Actually, in post #39, I talked about scenario based drills. IMHO, this would provide some excellent training. Providing its done right, the proper mindset can be created, giving the student a realistic feel to an attack.

Mike

 

[Dark]

Are you suggesting learning how an attacker might think and do? And how we might respond to these "cues"? If the nuances of human behavior can be duplicated or at least as closely as possible in the dojo, then that will go a long way in helping prepare the proper combat mindset.

- Ceicei

Exactly but thats only one side of the spectrum...

 

[Rook]

No I'm all about the simulation, but sparring isn't simulation, it's sport?

Sportfighting generally is a simulation.

Let me break down what I'm saying...
Most Likely Forms of Attack by Criminals...
Herding: Surround an intended victem, and use numbers.
Gang Assaults: Attacking in a gang and attacking from muliple angles centered on the target.
Blind Rushes: Sudden unexpected attackes.
Assaults with Weapons: Duh.
Combinations: Pick and mix basically...

Sure. Start with one person at a range and work your way up to sparring multiple opponents starting at close range.

The common answer I keep hearing is aliveness is Sparring. How does sparring prepare you for any of that? It doesn't, but the arguement only sparring works because sensei (sorry didn't catch the name) wrote an essay on Aliveness.

The sparring we have develops the ability to strike in real time, to anticipate strikes and movement, to counter, to become acclimated to being struck (taking a punch) etc. Anytime two people start fighting at close range, basically one of four things can happen:

1. One beats the others with a small number of techniques at that range - the assumption of many RBSD people.
2. The two break apart and one runs off sucessfully
3. The two break off, reset, and clash again (basically, sparring ensues when you survive the initial assault and are still standing etc.)
4. The fight goes to the ground (talk to MMA & BJJ people for what to do here, because most people don't have a clue)

Progressive resistance isn't the problem, but it is a partial answer. The full answer is progressive resistance, combined with technical understanding and realistic training. Sparring isn't realistic training for what happens during assaults, rapes or other violent crimes.

See above. The least realistic training I see is ussually non-contact single-strike-escape one hour training session that RBSD people promote.

People in the real word adapt (freeform) and hit as hard as possible (full contact). Many simulations are based on the highly improbable assumption that the attacker stands and close range in a static posture and can be taken out by one strike or a flurry of counters while not continuing his/her/their own offense or defense.

What I'm attacking is the ignorance of limitation, willing limited yourself to only one course will leave you dead in the real world. As I've mention I attacked students with wiffle bats for no real reason, except that it prepares then for reality. Reality is letting your guard down will hurt you...

Well, sparring and adaptive training is supposed to let you adjust courses, strategy and tactics in your fight. Its static drills that don't let you.

Sparring is a good step, but it's only a step...

Fair enough.

There is more, then sparring. For some reason the only thing people talk about is kata. Kata is a book and is good exercise but isn't there to do anything but teach concept. Sparring is good to, and needed if you expect to use your art on a functional level, but it is not nor will it ever recreate "the street."

Nothing is the street except the street. Some people get closer than others in dojo training.

Quick and dirty:
Kata is a book and an exercise, Sparring is a good step but it isn't the end of the answer and it will not prepare you to pay attention or keep your guard up at all times...

I have yet to see anything that a person can teach that will prepare someone to pay closer attention to their surroundings.

 

[Ceicei]

Exactly but thats only one side of the spectrum...

Intriguing! I'd like to know more of the other side(s) of your spectrum (the psychology issue), if you would care to elaborate. Thanks.

- Ceicei

 

[Dark]

Maybe I'm just not reading this right, but could you explain this? I think I have an idea as to what you're saying, but would just like some clarification.

Mike, I wasn't specifically talking about you blasting kata. But to the point, remember how I said there were rules to a street fight? There are rules of behavior for what others consider the street. Basically, it like a pack of wolves there is always an alpha and bunch guys trying to be the alpha.

I work the training like this, a do a few exercise to get my students used to the idea of trapping and locking, then move to resisting then move to sparring. I also allow students that are the legal age to drink beer and smoke in class. I'll blare metal and flash strobs in their eyes to simulate a bar room atmophere. They spar drunk because, the majority of fights happen while drunk.

There is a mental element to all violent crimes and street fights; fear, dominance and despration.
Fear: Most streetfighter/criminal typeshave two fears the guys tougher then them and the appearance of weakness. Appearing weak makes you prey for someone else.
Dominance: Everyone answers to someone else and the food chain keeps going. The tough guys have to find weaker targets to reinforce their own image of dominance, even though they may very well be the bottom of the food chain.
Desperation: Allot of these type are habitual offenders and see prison as an improvement to the life they live outside. So robbery or other violent crimes often leads back to the "lose-lose" mindset.

Once you understand that, randomly "attacking" students makes a good point. Plus certain concepts can not be taught in sparring. Like the fact that allot of "street fighters" grow out and cut their finger nails into points. You can guess the damage that intels..?

 

[Dark]

Intriguing! I'd like to know more of the other side(s) of your spectrum (the psychology issue), if you would care to elaborate. Thanks.

- Ceicei

I actually have a book coming out on this subject, later this year. But I explained some the pychological aspects in another post. There are also personality types for the real world as well.

Cats- Avarage Joe, make some noise and he runs back him into a corner watch out.

Dogs- Tough guys, they bark you run they chase. They bark you smack them they run away.

Wolves- Just like dogs but need back up to talk trash.

Bears- The big guys who use size to intimidate you.

Wolverines- Nasty little critter that never back down.

Notice 3 out of 5 try to impress you and intindate you. One will either rip your throat out and it won't and the other just wants to left alone. Thats what 60% of so real street fighter as, guys creating an image to scare you. That doesn't say they won't back it up, it just means they need to look tougher then they are.

Now some people are tougher then they look and some people you will never know until you back them into a corner. another actuality is to need to hidden behind that image. This means going farther then they plan to go just to keep up appearances.

I hope this gives you some idea...?

 

[Dark]

Sportfighting generally is a simulation.

I have to ask how do you define a streetfight? And how many have you been in? Not to sound like wonnabe, but if you don't know, you don't know...

Sure. Start with one person at a range and work your way up to sparring multiple opponents starting at close range.

Or you do the smart thing and learn to look for the warning signs and run far and fast

The sparring we have develops the ability to strike in real time, to anticipate strikes and movement, to counter, to become acclimated to being struck (taking a punch) etc. Anytime two people start fighting at close range, basically one of four things can happen:

Or the all ebcombasing 5th element, you cheat and win by pulling a gun. See there is more to the street then what your enemy can do and how your live sparring/martial art skills teach you timing and blah, blah... It's called the willingness and desire to survive.
You were so focused on proving you systems ability, that you forget the first rule of survive, prepae for the worst.

See above. The least realistic training I see is ussually non-contact single-strike-escape one hour training session that RBSD people promote.

No there the you stand here while I hit 12 times stuff... lol

People in the real word adapt (freeform) and hit as hard as possible (full contact). Many simulations are based on the highly improbable assumption that the attacker stands and close range in a static posture and can be taken out by one strike or a flurry of counters while not continuing his/her/their own offense or defense.

Your absolutely right, lets teach a bunch of 12 year olds to break each others arm and say "Here try this out."

Well, sparring and adaptive training is supposed to let you adjust courses, strategy and tactics in your fight. Its static drills that don't let you.

Those static drills are only baby steps, ways of working up to the art form.

Nothing is the street except the street. Some people get closer than others in dojo training.

Lets call it life, nothing can prepare you for life but you can be given guidelines.

I have yet to see anything that a person can teach that will prepare someone to pay closer attention to their surroundings.

Then you are not looking in the right places...

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

I work the training like this, a do a few exercise to get my students used to the idea of trapping and locking, then move to resisting then move to sparring. I also allow students that are the legal age to drink beer and smoke in class. I'll blare metal and flash strobs in their eyes to simulate a bar room atmophere. They spar drunk because, the majority of fights happen while drunk.

You spar drunk? WTF?! I'm pretty sure you are violating the first rule of your school by talking about your school. I'll give you credit, thats a pretty good way to recreate "the street", but if you really want people to think you are legit you should probably drive your car around the gym while people spar. After all, in "the street" you never know when a car is going to come and run you over, especially if you are groundfighting and injured by a back full of broken glass!

There is a mental element to all violent crimes and street fights; fear, dominance and despration.
Fear: Most streetfighter/criminal typeshave two fears the guys tougher then them and the appearance of weakness. Appearing weak makes you prey for someone else.
Dominance: Everyone answers to someone else and the food chain keeps going. The tough guys have to find weaker targets to reinforce their own image of dominance, even though they may very well be the bottom of the food chain.
Desperation: Allot of these type are habitual offenders and see prison as an improvement to the life they live outside. So robbery or other violent crimes often leads back to the "lose-lose" mindset.

Mind posting the source of this information? This is the problem I had on the Streetfight Study thread, people making highly specific claims about how a fight is likely to occur and not providing any actual evidence. That sounds pretty and all, but unless you have some actual source for it, its just more speculation.

Once you understand that, randomly "attacking" students makes a good point. Plus certain concepts can not be taught in sparring. Like the fact that allot of "street fighters" grow out and cut their finger nails into points. You can guess the damage that intels..?

Randomly smacking students with a wiffle bat only makes sense if you let them attack back afterwords. If thats what you are doing, good for you. If it's not, it's neither aliveness or good marketing. And once again, where are you geting your facts? I seriously doubt we are faced with an epidemic of slightly clawed streetfighters scratching their way to the top of the Kumite. Besides, those guys would just end up loosing to M. Bison's power spin.

Am I hypocritical for calling you out on speculation while presenting speculation in return? No. As it stands the evidence clearly suggests that the people best prepared to handle themselves in a fight are those that engage in resistance training and sparring. These are the people who win sport fights; no one who doesn't train with resistance has ever or will even win an MMA match.

The counter argument (to save someone the trouble of typing it) is that sport fights are just that, a sport. Training for sport can only prepare you for that particular situation, and in the anything goes enviroment of the street sport fighters are woefully unprepared.

Then who is prepared? The guy who throws kicks at a bag all day but has never had to deal with a moving target? Or the guy who eyegouges a rubber dummy but has never taken a punch? The truth is no one is completely prepared, but the ones who are best prepared are the ones who have trained against an opponent who won't just stand still and be hit and who know what it is like to take a blow and keep fighting. Resistance training is the ONLY way to teach this.

 

[Dark]

You spar drunk? WTF?! I'm pretty sure you are violating the first rule of your school by talking about your school. I'll give you credit, thats a pretty good way to recreate "the street", but if you really want people to think you are legit you should probably drive your car around the gym while people spar. After all, in "the street" you never know when a car is going to come and run you over, especially if you are groundfighting and injured by a back full of broken glass!

Its not recreating the street its recreating the most likely enviroment conditions. That being intixicated and with a great deal of distraction. I'm not the first or nor the last to impliment that concept. I actually "stolen" the idea from someone else.

Mind posting the source of this information? This is the problem I had on the Streetfight Study thread, people making highly specific claims about how a fight is likely to occur and not providing any actual evidence. That sounds pretty and all, but unless you have some actual source for it, its just more speculation.

Sure, my sourse is life. This isn't what your getting, some people have been living what your trying to discover. There are no sources or studies on the street fight life style. On assaults, rapes, robberies etc yes. But thats not a street fight that being the subject of a crime. And statistics don't matter, they are an excuse...

In the real world there is only success and failure and everyting comes down to one thing, how much are you willing to lose.

Randomly smacking students with a wiffle bat only makes sense if you let them attack back afterwords. If thats what you are doing, good for you. If it's not, it's neither aliveness or good marketing. And once again, where are you geting your facts?

I'm getting facts because I habe blinded a few people in my time, also allot of jujitsu styles and tiger claw kung-fu guys use that same trick. My students don't have to hit back, if they are smart they reconise my body language and prempt the attack or simply move out of the way. There is this thing called awareness and if you aren't aware you will get hurt seriously.

The best defense is not to be in the fight at all and if you don't train to aviod and desculate the situation you aren't even training for self-defense.

Am I hypocritical for calling you out on speculation while presenting speculation in return? No. As it stands the evidence clearly suggests that the people best prepared to handle themselves in a fight are those that engage in resistance training and sparring. These are the people who win sport fights; no one who doesn't train with resistance has ever or will even win an MMA match.

Get over the MMA BS kick martial arts have mixed for centuries MMA is a marketing gimmick. Like pointed out in another post, your a sportsman an athlete and thats fine. I will give props on that, but it doesn't have a thing to do with being victemized, it has nothing to do with survival instinct.

The counter argument (to save someone the trouble of typing it) is that sport fights are just that, a sport. Training for sport can only prepare you for that particular situation, and in the anything goes enviroment of the street sport fighters are woefully unprepared.

Thats part of the arguement, like I pointed out you named a wide variety of possible out comes to being assaulted in the street. Except the most realistic one, claiming a specific advantage (i.e. a weapon yourself). Were you prepared to that outcome or did the constant drive to prove your system take away from the reality of the senario, staying alive and safe?

Then who is prepared? The guy who throws kicks at a bag all day but has never had to deal with a moving target? Or the guy who eyegouges a rubber dummy but has never taken a punch? The truth is no one is completely prepared, but the ones who are best prepared are the ones who have trained against an opponent who won't just stand still and be hit and who know what it is like to take a blow and keep fighting. Resistance training is the ONLY way to teach this.

Except all of those things lead up to sparring, kumite, randori etc, etc depending on your system. Most of the martial arts systems were taught to children starting at 5 or 6 years old. I'm not saying a resisting opponent isn't good for training, but there has to be more...