‘aliveness’ in martial arts training

Explorer

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Please forgive the length of this post. Apparently I think I have a lot to say. :)

I’ve recently run across a number of remarks calling for ‘aliveness’ in martial arts training. People seem to throw the term around casually as if everybody agrees on what “aliveness” means. After some additional reading and reflection I believe we are lacking an accurate definition of the term. It is extremely important that our terms are clear to avoid misunderstanding and sloppy thinking.

I believe that ‘aliveness’ must refer to a techniques efficacy in a given context. In my thinking context is everything. In one context a simple pop to the solar plexus will be all one needs. In another context it will take every fiber of your being, every ounce of energy and every technique you know just to stay alive. In yet another context the problem is solved by leaving the area and going someplace safe.

In one instance a palm extended toward a potential attacker followed by the word “Stop!” said loudly enough for everyone to hear will work perfectly; in that context the technique is ‘alive. Try the same technique in another context and it is dead … and you’re injured or worse. Therefore ‘aliveness’ is determined by context.

Some who are calling for ‘aliveness’ seem to suggest that any technique that will not work against an all out attack – such as a bull rushing, machete wielding, berserker ninja – is DEAD technique. Yet in actual situations I’ve used very subtle techniques like finger locks, goosenecks or the word “Don’t!” to put my – would be – attacker at a serious disadvantage … enough to dissuade them from continuing. I’ve actually grabbed some by one of the nerve bundles under the arm with enough force to induce pain compliance. They weren’t happy, but they stopped. The technique didn’t feel very dead to me OR my opponent.

I’ve also noticed and intriguing tactic when discussing ‘alive’ and ‘dead’ techniques. Often the person complaining about the technique will change the scenario in order to ‘prove’ the techniques ineffectiveness. I’ve actually had someone tell me that a finger lock would not work because if the attacker’s intent was to cause real harm a simple finger lock wouldn’t stop him. My answer was; true enough, but finger pointing is not the ballistic portion of an assault. Finger pointing is a precursor to an assault, an intimidation tactic; and the perfect time to take pre-emptive action. Secondly, if the attacker wanted to do me real harm, that’s what he’d be doing; then my choice of technique would change. Changing the scenario to ‘prove’ a technique won’t work is false reasoning. It’s a straw man. Once the scenario changes … the technique MUST change, it’s as simple as that.

Assault statistics tell us that even the implied use of force is enough to give some attackers second thoughts. OK … class, please take out the study from Florida State University professors Jongyeon Tark and Gary Kleck titled RESISTING CRIME: THE EFFECTS OF VICTIM ACTION ON THE OUTCOMES OF CRIMES. If you don’t have a copy, you need one; you’ll find it in the journal CRIMINOLOGY Volume Number 42 Number 4 2004 (call ‘em, it’s $7 or $8bucks if they fax it to you). In it you will discover that almost any self protective strategy (except trying to talk your way out of trouble) will likely result in your surviving the encounter. Don’t take my word for it, get a copy of the study and see for yourself.

So, what’s the deal? People keep saying we have to have a clear understanding of how the world really is; all the while throwing scenarios at us that almost NEVER occur. I understand ‘worst case scenario’ training and encourage it … how about some ‘most likely case scenario’ training? How about an escalating use of force continuum? That’s what we teach our students.
 

MardiGras Bandit

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You actually answered a question of mine from another thread, asking if there was an existing study on streetfights. I'll have to check that out, I've read Kleck's work before and found it eye opening. Thanks for the tip.

I don't think you understand aliveness though. It doesn't refer to technique, it refers to training. Aliveness is training against a person activley trying to resist your attacks and overcome your defense. A bad technique can be trained "alive" and a good technique can be trained "dead". The move itself is not the issue, how it is trained is.
 

Xue Sheng

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Well that simple finger lock wouldn't work on Ninja Bunnies hopped up on Steroids wearing Samurai armor and wielding Scimitars and chain maces now would it :)

You make a very good point and I will have to check out the book.

Also I agree with what you are saying.
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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Explorer:

Aliveness refers to training against a resisting parter, using unscripted sequences of movements to attack/defend, and contuously moving rather than staying in a static position.

You clearly don't understand the concept of aliveness. Please google to find Straight Blast Gym. They have several articles on aliveness. Please do some searches here on MartialTalk as well.
 

Xue Sheng

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Actually, if you want to get technical, the English definition of Aliveness is;
1. Having life; living.
2. In existence or operation; active: keep your hopes alive.
3. Full of living or moving things; abounding: a pool alive with trout.
4. Full of activity or animation; lively: a face alive with mischief.
 

Robert Lee

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People train on set actions agins parteners that are not resisting. Being alive is resistive action. Then you find out how a certion tool may work or find out how you can get it working with a person that resists just standing there letting you do it. And then you have to remember today you will find that person high on drugs. They feel much different on pain You really have to hurt them sometimes to stop them. A finger lock will just get them more upset. Every tried your best to knock some one out high on Speed. Its not that easy you hit them sevralmore times then you would for a normal person. I know I had to do this about a year ago. I hit the person sure he went down But he got up and up agin But finaly managed to stop him.
 

Xue Sheng

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Robert Lee said:
People train on set actions agins parteners that are not resisting. Being alive is resistive action. Then you find out how a certion tool may work or find out how you can get it working with a person that resists just standing there letting you do it. And then you have to remember today you will find that person high on drugs. They feel much different on pain You really have to hurt them sometimes to stop them. A finger lock will just get them more upset. Every tried your best to knock some one out high on Speed. Its not that easy you hit them sevralmore times then you would for a normal person. I know I had to do this about a year ago. I hit the person sure he went down But he got up and up agin But finaly managed to stop him.

I admit I may be missing your point here.

But I believe the point of the post by Explorer is that a finger lock would not work on someone on speed so you change tactic.

I had to wrestle an IV drug using, drunken, bleeding, heroin addict to the floor once, nothing worked but physical force, hitting would not have work, nor was it an option. Joint lock would not work, no finesse, no style no fancy or simplistic move just strength. The only thing that worked was muscle, weight and eventually help from the other guy on duty with me.

This was way back in my days in security for a hospital that had an ER, Mental Health, and a detox unit. And I do not miss it at all. There are no set rules in a confrontation. You use what you have, what you know and what you can. And stuff like that happened way too often.

And what you learn in any style be it joint lock, kata, form, kick. punch, throw or takedown are just things you have and need in you toolbox, if you will, you never know when any one or part of anyone will come in very handy.
 

Robert Lee

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Point was that if you do not train some srt of live action That gives resistive training to you . The person on drugs would be so much harder to handle. Much less the average street fighter. Things in real life do not fit the class room training routine if the training does not at least apply resistive motion meaning the person is not just letting you do a joint maniplation hit kick take down ect. they are trying to stop you much less if some one is hitting you back and trying to stop you first. Just being hit and being able to keep going takes training as every person is not a fighter until they have trained some what. The old saying people are born with the fight or flight motion it rings true. some people never trained any fighting art. CAn fight very well they have that natural heart to fight any time the have to Others have to train to be able to do this. And until they gat hit a few times they do not react as well.
 

tshadowchaser

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There are no set rules in a confrontation. You use what you have, what you know and what you can.
\
agreed but I also agree that " what may happen" sotuation training is nessacary with and with out resistance
 

pstarr

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To me, "aliveness" means having "spirit" in training as opposed to just going through the moves...kind of like the difference between what I call "dead man Taiji" and "real" Taiji that has LIFE to it.

As for the "what if..." scenarios, I couldn't agree more. No matter what you do, there'll always be a "what iffer" right around the corner-:rolleyes:
 

FuriousGeorge

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Like others, I think aliveness mearly means training against a resisting opponent. At my gym we usually start working tecnhiques against a cooperating opponent in order to learn it, as the class progresses we add resistance until, by the end, we are fully resisting one another. I shouldn't have to tell you that once your opponent is resisting the technique, the harder it is to perform. What we learn from this style of training is how our unique bodies and fitness levels play into our ability to apply a given technique. This allows each practitioner the opportunity to encorporate what techniques are most effective for him/her...I work from guard a lot, because I have a strong guard...others don't like to be in this position because they aren't effective from it. Live training gives us each the opportunity to develop our own, unique game instead of emulating a style that was effective for someone else. Ultimately, we also learn to adjust what techniques we use against opponents of different bodytypes, skill levels, etc. The drawback to this style of training, as I see it, is there is a tendency to avoid what is difficult to execute, so you have to be disciplined about trying things you may not be great at doing yet. Other than that, I think its the only way to train. just my two cents ;)
 

MJS

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Having 'aliveness' in ones training is very important IMHO. It'll certainly give a different feel to being able to apply a technique. While it is often said that MMA includes this in all areas of their training, I don't feel that someone has to enter an MMA match in order to be able to apply the ideas and concepts of this training. With the proper gear and some creativity, you'd be surprised at what can be done!

Mike
 

Dark

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Old Fat Kenpoka said:
Explorer:

Aliveness refers to training against a resisting parter, using unscripted sequences of movements to attack/defend, and contuously moving rather than staying in a static position.

The whole "aliveness" philosophy goes back the Chinese and Okinawan MAs, and has been re-used allot by MMA people. That said the concept of aliveness has been lost to commercial propaganda and the origional meaning distorted.

Aliveness comes in the form of princples and adaptive applications there of. Simply put, a chimp can get you in a cross arm bar. But, will it understand the biological and physical principles behind the arm bar to addapt it to a slightly different sitautation?

Knowling the principles behind a technique and applying those principles in an ever evoling and addapting manner is what called a living technique. It's alive because it have grown in your understanding beyond what was taught to you.

A living philosophy, is a philosophy not of strict rules but fluid and flexible idealism.

Aliveness has nothing to do with sparring, or resistance but understanding how and why things work and addapting those principle ideas. Granted those things are a great asset in living training, but it is not aliveness only aspect there of.

My two cents worth...
 

FuriousGeorge

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Interesting...In my mind these two meanings are related. If the idea is to understand how to adapt a technique for any given situation, wouldn't one's techniques be more alive if they train against resisting opponents of different sizes shapes and skill levels? To be honest I have never heard aliveness defined in the way dark has explained it, but to me it is fully in step with the other definition.
 

Xue Sheng

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pstarr said:
"dead man Taiji" and "real" Taiji that has LIFE to it.

I like that and I am going to use it in my descriptions of Tai Chi, since I seem to always end up watching a lot of "dead man Taiji". It is what killed my Traditional Yang Teachers class and why I am now in CMC.

Sorry, this was off post, I will stop now

Thanks for the description pstarr
 
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Very interesting stuff, guys and gals. I really like the give and take. Thank you.

I'm still concerned about this issue of resistance. We have a number of techniques that, adapted to a resistant uki will result in connective tissue damage (like ripping a tendon or ligiment from the bone) muscle damage or fracture. This is obviously unacceptable. How do we train these techniques with the aliveness some of you are advocating?

I also think that if your partner is offering resistance, he is acting on the knowledge of what you are about to do ... he's already set up to defeat your technique ... which is really easy. How is that like reality? I've never, ever informed an opponent of what I'm going to do and, in any number of confrontations, have been able to surprise the aggressor with very little effort.

We also know from uniform crime reports and studies (like Grayson/Stein) that the overwhelming number of attackers is hoping to indtimidate and overwhelm an opponent via surprise, superior numbers, etc. They want a compliant victim ... so they don't have to work too hard or risk being hurt ... and almost any resistance will drive them off. This is the most common case ... this is what our students are most likely to come up against. Case study after case study shows attacks being repelled by command presence alone. The mere threat of resistance sends the attacker searching for a more compliant victim.

OK ... the mind's working here ... if I set up the attack scenario and don't tell the uki what I'm going to do ... then that's alive training?
IF this is the case ... how do I go about learning the skill via repitition? I think the answer is a compliant uki ... until a certain level of skill is attained, then the uki ramps up the intensity. Let me know how you think about this.

Again, thanks for your good thinking and sound judgement. This is really fun.
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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Dark said:
The whole "aliveness" philosophy goes back the Chinese and Okinawan MAs, and has been re-used allot by MMA people. That said the concept of aliveness has been lost to commercial propaganda and the origional meaning distorted.

Aliveness comes in the form of princples and adaptive applications there of. Simply put, a chimp can get you in a cross arm bar. But, will it understand the biological and physical principles behind the arm bar to addapt it to a slightly different sitautation?

Knowling the principles behind a technique and applying those principles in an ever evoling and addapting manner is what called a living technique. It's alive because it have grown in your understanding beyond what was taught to you.

A living philosophy, is a philosophy not of strict rules but fluid and flexible idealism.

Aliveness has nothing to do with sparring, or resistance but understanding how and why things work and addapting those principle ideas. Granted those things are a great asset in living training, but it is not aliveness only aspect there of.

My two cents worth...

Um... no.

Alliveness has to do with training methods, not with philosophy or principles of physics.
 

Xue Sheng

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Old Fat Kenpoka said:
Um... no.

Alliveness has to do with training methods, not with philosophy or principles of physics.

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
Here is a link to Straight Blast Gym and their article about Aliveness.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html

More importantly, please watch this video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...041053&pl=true.

Interesting, but this would be Straight Blast Gym's definition of aliveness but not necessarily everyone else’s definition of aliveness. In this context it is, to say the least, a bit subjective don't you think. I don't feel it is a my way or the highway kind of thing.
 
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