Aikido.. The reality?

[JowGaWolf]

I was just giving examples of how "a smaller person can defeat a larger person." If focus of Aikido is spiritual then "a smaller person beating a larger stronger person" may not even relate to fighting.

If a system isn't designed for fighting then there's no sense to keep asking "how does a smaller person physically beat up a larger person" or "How do physically beat up multiple people" Those questions are based on the perspective that the system is used for fighting. Most of the spiritual people that I know don't come out and directly say what they mean. They often use symbolism. Which is why religion is often says things that doesn't make sense when taken out of context "God's warriors." "Spiritual Warriors" "Spiritual Combat" "Good vs Evil" So the context of things is important.

If you "know" and "believe" that Aikido isn't for fighting then, there's no need to continue to look at it from the perspective of fighting. If it's for spiritual development then statements like "smaller person defeating a larger person" needs to be viewed in the context of spiritual development. However, if the school claims spiritual context and self-defense context. Then I would probably remove that school off the list of functional Akido for fighting.

 

[Flying Crane]

When an Aikido guy sees a punch coming toward his face, he will never use his arm to hurt his opponent's punching arm. The style limitation will restrict the Aikido system to have anti-missile system.

Well, I don’t know much about aikido. But this notion of “style limitation” is a concept that you keep bringing up. I don’t see it though. I think it’s a manufactured result of either your approach to training or the training that you have received. But the way I see it, a style isn’t a collection of specific techniques. There are no techniques that cannot be part of a particular style. But I see a style as an approach to training based on a foundation of driving principles. So any technique that is compatible with those principles can be or become part of that style.

We have talked about this before, but I think you see a style as imposing limitations, while I see a style as opening doors and creating possibilities. But I guess we have had different training experiences.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ballet is a system. Since it's a system with scripted movements it would be good for fighting, it just needs to be trained that way.

Ballet is a system, it's not a fighting system, but it's good for flexibility and that flexibility can be beneficial to fighting.
Weight lifting is a system. It's not a fighting system, but it's good for building strength and can be beneficial to fighting.
Running is a system. It's not a fighting system, but it's good for building cardio endurance and can be beneficial to fighting.

I'm not sure why you don't understand this, or why you need me to explain this.

 

[JowGaWolf]

it´s laughable when some Senseis say ..yeah we take his wrist & do this & that. A knife moves so fast & cuts quickly. look at some of these guys in jails with "shanks" stab a guy 10 times in seconds. people need to realise this !

Yeah and I've never seen video of them over extending when they are shanking lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

he´s a thinker/philosopher not a practioner
but what ..if...or maybe this.... meanwhile he is dying

I'm not a practitioner of Aikido that's why I ask the questions so I can hear from those who practice Aikido.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think if you trained with real resistance your views would be different. I can find you a bunch of videos of one punch knockouts too, but that doesn't mean it will unfold that way every time.

There wouldn't be any difference for me. If I can't get you within in a certain range, I don't overextend to reach you. My greatest risk for over extending is when I'm exhausted and at that point everything falls apart. Other than that I'm not going to over extend as it cause causes functional issues for me.

I know how I fight. I know I I've fought in street fights (as real as it gets). That's just something that I'm not going to and it would be very difficult to make me over extend. If I punch out of range then overextending isn't going to make it better. I know other people who are the same way. When you train habit so that it greatly decreases the likely hood that you will do something that is considered harmful for you.

 

[Hanzou]

Speaking of Rokas, it's good to see that he's still doing Bjj;

I thought he had quit when he returned to Europe.

 

[RagingBull]

I'm not a practitioner of Aikido that's why I ask the questions so I can hear from those who practice Aikido.

ok mate

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We have talked about this before, but I think you see a style as imposing limitations, while I see a style as opening doors and creating possibilities. But I guess we have had different training experiences.

Grapplers don't want to talk about fist flying. Strikers don't want to talk about under hook, over hook, ...

In a

- Judo forum, I suggest no-gi training. People in that forum were all mad at me big time.
- WC thread, I suggest to integrate arm drag into WC sticky hand, people are not interested.

I just don't understand why some people don't want to "opening doors and creating possibilities."

 

[drop bear]

We had a good 25 pages talking about the techniques in Aikido and the various principles. However, somewhere after page 25 the tone of the discussion began to change and it changed from looking at Aikido to bashing it. I get that things go off the track here, but rarely if ever do the conversation towards the end of such a long thread have anything to do with what was discussed at the beginning.

The thing about accepting Aikido is that they have many different views of what Aikido should be about. Which is were we were originally with one Aikido Camp stating that it's for purpose A and the other states that it's for Purpose B.

I watched a couple of Akido Randori videos. After watching a few dozen of them, I began to recognize a common theme that I didn't realize before. Which made thing think differently about Randori.

Some see Randori as "Fighting multiple attackers" Now I'm starting to see it as a drill where you have to respond to various attacks quickly. I say this because I thought that it would be a good drill to have people take turns in attacking differently one after the other which creates random attacks that you have to deal with. Not in the context of fighting multiple people, but in the context of "what do you do if one person uses attack A" then the next person attacks and the scenario changes "what do you do if one person uses attack B"

You can have one person just go through a bunch of random attacks but at that point, you a watching for that one person to do something. A person that is standing in front of you cannot attack you unexpectedly from the side in order to give you a chance to deal with something that you truly didn't know was coming.

If this is what Randori is about, the ability to quickly respond to unexpected attacks from random directions then I'll probably add a similar training to my Kung Fu training as that would go well with my concept that a person should be able to do some type of Kung Fu from any position they find themselves in.

If I'm not correct about Randori, then I'm still using it because that way, I don't know what the attack will be and I have to quickly respond to it with a kung fu technique. If I'm correct, then I've learned something from Aikido.

It is not the drill. It is the massive gap between concept and reality.

You train a skill. And at some point you get better at that skill.

Or you train a skill and you don't get better at that skill. But say you get better at some different skill. Which was really the skill you were training all along. But we still don't know if you got better at any skill. Because we never see the end result.

So Aikido trains grappling.

Let's see them grapple.

No? That is because atemi or striking is 90% of Aikido.

Ok let's see them strike.

No. Aikido is about developing character and spirituality.

Ok. Let's see that development.

You can't see spiritual development. You have to experience it.

So at the end what have we actually got?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So Aikido trains grappling.

Let's see them grapple.

I had an Aikido brown belt in my class before. On the mat, he wrestled the same as everybody else.

 

[drop bear]

I had an Aikido brown belt in my class before. On the mat, he wrestled the same as everybody else.

Yeah. But not one or two random guys. It should be so common as to not even be worth commenting on.

I mean I don't have to find video of Lachlan Guiles to sho live training.

It is literally everywhere.

 

[Martial D]

Ballet is a system, it's not a fighting system, but it's good for flexibility and that flexibility can be beneficial to fighting.
Weight lifting is a system. It's not a fighting system, but it's good for building strength and can be beneficial to fighting.
Running is a system. It's not a fighting system, but it's good for building cardio endurance and can be beneficial to fighting.

I'm not sure why you don't understand this, or why you need me to explain this.

I do understand that. That is you attacking a strawman.

The only way that follows from what I said is if you are saying scripted martial arts such as aikido or Kung Fu aren't fighting systems unto themselves. I somehow doubt that is a concession you are willing to make.

 

[Martial D]

I had an Aikido brown belt in my class before. On the mat, he wrestled the same as everybody else.

I've trained with two shodan level aikidokas..the second had his two daughters that were also ranked. None of them could be distinguished from completely untrained people in terms of striking or grappling, although the fella with his two daughters put on a cool show for us.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah. But not one or two random guys. It should be so common as to not even be worth commenting on.

I mean I don't have to find video of Lachlan Guiles to sho live training.

It is literally everywhere.

What I'm trying to say is when an Aikido guy gets on the mat, the harmony (Ai), spiritual strength (Ki), peace, and following the Aikido way (Do) just don't exist.

Why?

 

[jayoliver00]

I'm not a practitioner of Aikido that's why I ask the questions so I can hear from those who practice Aikido.

Then why did you dismiss that Roka guy's testimony and his mega-ton of videos about Aikido on his channel?

Not only was he an Aikido school instructor/owner, but it looked like he had 30-50 active students and was in his prime while doing Aikido; young, strong & agile.

I doubt that any Aikidoka here is at his level of accomplishment in Aikido. And he threw it all away b/c he saw the reality of it as being ineffective.

 

[jayoliver00]

I've trained with two shodan level aikidokas..the second had his two daughters that were also ranked. None of them could be distinguished from completely untrained people in terms of striking or grappling, although the fella with his two daughters put on a cool show for us.

I don't get it. Are you saying that they were great when doing their Aikido flowing/choreography (with each other) but when it was time for sparring, you kicked their butts easily?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Then why did you dismiss that Roka guy's testimony and his mega-ton of videos about Aikido on his channel?

Because he did not dig deeper into his system to understand it. A few months. There's a big difference between trying to understanding a system and dismissing it as flawed. Things like "Make kung fu work," "Make Aikido Work," "Make Tai Chi," "Make TKD functional." are all things that people say when they just skim the top of what they train and fail to look at how they train and fail to understand what they were training. I've hear the same tune about other systems as well. I'll take him serious when he takes his martial arts serious.

At the moment he only cares about people viewing his videos. I get that. People gotta make money.

Then there's stuff like this. "Well damn Roka. This sounds like some of the same stuff you did to Aikido and when you called out Wing Chun. "

 

[JowGaWolf]

Then why did you dismiss that Roka guy's testimony and his mega-ton of videos about Aikido on his channel?

Not only was he an Aikido school instructor/owner, but it looked like he had 30-50 active students and was in his prime while doing Aikido; young, strong & agile.

I doubt that any Aikidoka here is at his level of accomplishment in Aikido. And he threw it all away b/c he saw the reality of it as being ineffective.

By the way, the numbers of years that someone trains a martial arts doesn't matter if they aren't training how to apply it. I could do a Jow Ga form for 50 years and be come very good at it, and still be horrible with actually using it. A good form or application demo does not mean you actually know how to use the techniques in a fight. It just means that you are good at doing a demo.

 

[jayoliver00]

Because he did not dig deeper into his system to understand it. A few months. There's a big difference between trying to understanding a system and dismissing it as flawed. Things like "Make kung fu work," "Make Aikido Work," "Make Tai Chi," "Make TKD functional." are all things that people say when they just skim the top of what they train and fail to look at how they train and fail to understand what they were training. I've hear the same tune about other systems as well. I'll take him serious when he takes his martial arts serious.

Are you saying that the Aikido guy who runs the Martial Arts Journey channel on Youtube only has "a few months" of digging into Aikido?

He spent most of his life, training then teaching Aikido; owning his own school with 30-50 students. Do you teach? I bet you have less than 1/4 of his active, paying student roster.

At the moment he only cares about people viewing his videos. I get that. People gotta make money.

Then there's stuff like this. "Well damn Roka. This sounds like some of the same stuff you did to Aikido and when you called out Wing Chun. "

You need to prove this. If he had 30-50 paying, Aikido students then that would've been seriously dumb for him to throw it all away to start up a Youtube channel just for the chance of being more profitable. Do you understand how Youtube's monetization work? You don't just get paid $$$ as soon as you make a channel and get views.