Aikido has no reason to prove itself!

Gerry Seymour

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And then you have to think about the fact that if the same things can be achieved though other activities, like learning to play a musical instrument, then why would a person who is not interested in learning self-defense take up aikido?
Because they want something more physical than a musical instrument, for fitness or other reasons? Your argument seems to be based on a premise that anything martial-arty must be for self-defense, then loops back to reinforce its own premise. If we insert "gymnastics" in place of "Aikido", this argument never comes up. And there are schools (and, I think, an entire association) that market Aikido as being about peace and flow. If they aren't marketing it for fighting, then I'd assume most of the folks training there chose it for some reason other than that - perhaps even the reasons mentioned in the marketing.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Indeed it is. I've even seen Aikido schools claim that learning Aikido will make you capable of defeating multiple attackers.
There definitely are schools that make such claims. I've never been able to figure out if they are a majority or minority. The associations seem less likely to make such claims, though some high-ranking folks used to make a point about that (like Tohei).
 

Gerry Seymour

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Not really the consensus though. Most people teach grappling as a counter to knife.

I am not completely sold.
Yeah, I think it may have its moments, but defense-oriented arts with a heavy grappling component seem to be entirely focused there.
 

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Do I want to drag Hapkido into this conversation??? I guess I will.

Hapkido and Aikido are different martial arts but have some commonality.

I believe Hapkido is useful for self defense as defined as one or more hostile people trying to accost or otherwise do physical harm to self. I come to this belief because I've had to use Hapkido in a couple of real world attacks and it worked. Additionally many law enforcement folks use Hapkido to subdue violent people daily.

I've never trained Aikido so I won't comment on it. I suspect if an Aikido school focused on real attack strategies and defenses it would be fairly practical.

I wonder what would make Hapkido more effective than Aikido. Perhaps the striking component?

Combat Hapkido is..... weird.

 

Gerry Seymour

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I think most systems try to grab the knife arm.
Which makes sense to me if you think of instinctual responses - if you can lay hands on that arm, you want to keep it. But as an only option, it doesn't focus enough on defense and high-percentage controls - tries to jump right to a disarm. And that's just a critique of the concept from someone who has never needed to defend against an actual knife.

The issue, IMO, is in how it's trained. It's either a single attack (one stab, for instance), or a face-off with the reward to whomever wins (no real cost for being overly aggressive). The outcome (and participants' understanding) changes when the training is better focused.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I wonder what would make Hapkido more effective than Aikido. Perhaps the striking component?

Combat Hapkido is..... weird.

I think any grappling is more effective with a solid grappling foundation paired to it.

From the small amount of Hapkido I've seen, it's also less focused on smooth flow. They can do that, but their responses are more direct and....I guess "harsher" is the word I'm looking for. But my view into Hapkido is pretty limited.
 

caped crusader

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I think any grappling is more effective with a solid grappling foundation paired to it.

From the small amount of Hapkido I've seen, it's also less focused on smooth flow. They can do that, but their responses are more direct and....I guess "harsher" is the word I'm looking for. But my view into Hapkido is pretty limited.
do they use the high kicks like Tae Kwon Do ?
 

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all these high kicks are no real use in a real brawl. maybe if you train every day like a pro but for most pretty much a waste of time. I remember a friend telling me about his Tae Kwon Do training. He said, "yeah i can keep the attacker(s) at a distance"
I took him to our training and he got his *** whooped big time. sorry but that織s reality. not everyone is chuck norris..lol but even he learned BJJ. Go figure.
 

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I remember a friend telling me about his Tae Kwon Do training. He said, "yeah i can keep the attacker(s) at a distance"
I took him to our training and he got his *** whooped big time.

Your friend is talking about against untrained attackers, not against kosen judoka - in which case he'd be right the majority of the time.
 

caped crusader

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Your friend is talking about against untrained attackers, not against kosen judoka - in which case he'd be right the majority of the time.
most people will close the gap quickly. do not get me wrong if you are very, very good and train every day maybe you can KO someone like Bill Wallace but c織mon man how many have that skill or dedication/time to achieve this skill?
 

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I wonder what would make Hapkido more effective than Aikido. Perhaps the striking component?

Combat Hapkido is..... weird.

Since I haven't trained Aikido I am not entirely sure what the major differences are. I'm told that Hapkido is more like small circle jujitsu and Aikido favors large circles but it's just talk. We do spar one another and have a lot of Jeet Kun Do style interception drills which we transition into standing grappling. Also the punching and kicking as you mentioned which are pretty much the same as TKD.
 

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I think any grappling is more effective with a solid grappling foundation paired to it.

From the small amount of Hapkido I've seen, it's also less focused on smooth flow. They can do that, but their responses are more direct and....I guess "harsher" is the word I'm looking for. But my view into Hapkido is pretty limited.
Harsher is a good way to put it. We will get a basic lock and then pound the crap out of our opponent with whatever isn't currently in use kicks or off hand punches etc, or just pound them into the ground again and again. Hapkido is like more Rated R I guess.
 

Gerry Seymour

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all these high kicks are no real use in a real brawl. maybe if you train every day like a pro but for most pretty much a waste of time. I remember a friend telling me about his Tae Kwon Do training. He said, "yeah i can keep the attacker(s) at a distance"
I took him to our training and he got his *** whooped big time. sorry but that織s reality. not everyone is chuck norris..lol but even he learned BJJ. Go figure.
If you try to high-kick a lot, they require a lot more skill. If you use them selectively, they are a nice knock-out "punch".
 

Gerry Seymour

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Since I haven't trained Aikido I am not entirely sure what the major differences are. I'm told that Hapkido is more like small circle jujitsu and Aikido favors large circles but it's just talk. We do spar one another and have a lot of Jeet Kun Do style interception drills which we transition into standing grappling. Also the punching and kicking as you mentioned which are pretty much the same as TKD.
I'd say that's a reasonable distinction. Probably not the only one, but the circles in the Hapkido I saw were definitely smaller than I've seen used in Aikido. Mind you, that's a pretty low bar. :D
 

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do they use the high kicks like Tae Kwon Do ?
Some of the older Hapkido Systems do high kicks and jump spinning kicks. The system I'm in uses low kicks, we don't even teach the high ones. Highest kick I see routinely is maybe solar plexus level, most are groin or knees.
 

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all these high kicks are no real use in a real brawl. maybe if you train every day like a pro but for most pretty much a waste of time. I remember a friend telling me about his Tae Kwon Do training. He said, "yeah i can keep the attacker(s) at a distance"
I took him to our training and he got his *** whooped big time. sorry but that織s reality. not everyone is chuck norris..lol but even he learned BJJ. Go figure.
I hear stories like this and think the wrong lesson is being learned. The lesson here isn't that TKD doesn't work. The lesson is, this guy needs to keep training with people who can whoop his ***, and the more he does, the better his TKD will work.
 

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Some of the older Hapkido Systems do high kicks and jump spinning kicks. The system I'm in uses low kicks, we don't even teach the high ones. Highest kick I see routinely is maybe solar plexus level, most are groin or knees.
Certainly the hapkido that comes from Ji Han Jae (arguably the founder of hapkido but I don't care to have that argument here) does. GM Ji 'invented' many kicks that aren't generally trained in taekwondo.
 
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