Aikido has no reason to prove itself!

[drop bear]

Is Aikido marketed as a self defense? If yes, then it does have reason to prove itself. If no, then it has no reason to do so.

I have an issue with even this because it is this constant shifting of goal posts.

I mean imagine if I said I was learning piano. And at some point someone
Asked me to play. And I was like I can't. I don't do it for self defense.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Is Aikido marketed as a self defense? If yes, then it does have reason to prove itself. If no, then it has no reason to do so.

I've never seen an aikidoka claim that aikido was not meant for self-defense in order to shield it from criticism. In fact, they double down on the claim that it IS an effective system for self-defense. And if that's what they believe, then that's how aikido is being marketed.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I've never seen an aikidoka claim that aikido was not meant for self-defense in order to shield it from criticism. In fact, they double down on the claim that it IS an effective system for self-defense. And if that's what they believe, then that's how aikido is being marketed.

If you to to the Q and A on some Aikido sites when asked if can be used for self defense, it says no, at any recreational level.

 

[O'Malley]

I have an issue with even this because it is this constant shifting of goal posts.

I mean imagine if I said I was learning piano. And at some point someone
Asked me to play. And I was like I can't. I don't do it for self defense.

It depends on the goals of your training. There are lots of aikido people who can't fight but are skilled at what they seek to achieve (e.g. fluid cooperative choreography, soft falls, etc.). They may not play the songs you expect from an MMA fighter, but they still play the piano.

Same with other martial arts:

I've never seen an aikidoka claim that aikido was not meant for self-defense in order to shield it from criticism. In fact, they double down on the claim that it IS an effective system for self-defense. And if that's what they believe, then that's how aikido is being marketed.

One has to distinguish between three things:
A) What aikido was meant to be. That is, what was the goal pursued by the founder of the art when he put together his system. Here we get into historical arguments.
B) How aikido is marketed. Which means how (most? highest-level?) practitioners present it. As there is no authority in aikido and everybody does his own thing for different reasons, there is no uniform way that "aikido is being marketed".
C) What practitioners train for and whether they achieve their goals or not. As above, everyone's in it for different reasons so generalisations will just miss the point. That said, there are practitioners that think they train for self-defense without making actual progress.

 

[Steve]

It depends on the goals of your training. There are lots of aikido people who can't fight but are skilled at what they seek to achieve (e.g. fluid cooperative choreography, soft falls, etc.). They may not play the songs you expect from an MMA fighter, but they still play the piano.

Same with other martial arts:

This is a fair point provided the instructor is transparent. “O’Malley, if you’re looking for self defense, this isn’t for you. I can teach you some pretty cool, stylized fight choreography, but you aren’t going to learn to fight here.” I don’t see a lot of that. Instead, what we see are vague allusions to developing a self defense mindset in a friendly, comfortable, non competitive environment.

One has to distinguish between three things:
A) What aikido was meant to be. That is, what was the goal pursued by the founder of the art when he put together his system. Here we get into historical arguments.

I think this one is pretty well covered over the years

B) How aikido is marketed. Which means how (most? highest-level?) practitioners present it. As there is no authority in aikido and everybody does his own thing for different reasons, there is no uniform way that "aikido is being marketed".

Errr. That’s not really true. Is it? We can acknowledge the positive exceptions to the rule without throwing out the rule. Or said another way, where aikido schools are fully transparent, overtly marketing the lack of fighting, we can praise them as examples of what we would like to see more of.

C) What practitioners train for and whether they achieve their goals or not. As above, everyone's in it for different reasons so generalisations will just miss the point. That said, there are practitioners that think they train for self-defense without making actual progress.

Only if they’re told overtly that aikido is not for learning any fighting or self defense. Like telling someone who plays the piano, you will learn to play music and there is value in that, but playing the piano will not help you in a fight.

 

[Urban Trekker]

The major problem I have with the claim that "the purpose of aikido is (insert non-self defense relating things here)" is that, even if this was stated in the marking, the ostentation of it being for self-defense is still in the training. And then you have to think about the fact that if the same things can be achieved though other activities, like learning to play a musical instrument, then why would a person who is not interested in learning self-defense take up aikido? At least if you learn how to play a musical instrument, you may gain discipline and other attributes, but you're also learning how to do exactly what it looks like you're learning how to do: play the musical instrument.

And if aikido is not for self-defense, then people who are fully aware of this and want to learn self-defense will go elsewhere.

So if aikido explicitly markets itself as not being for self-defense, then who could it possibly be attracting?

This is why it's hard for me to believe that aikido is marketing itself as not being for self-defense.

 

[O'Malley]

This is a fair point provided the instructor is transparent. “O’Malley, if you’re looking for self defense, this isn’t for you. I can teach you some pretty cool, stylized fight choreography, but you aren’t going to learn to fight here.” I don’t see a lot of that. Instead, what we see are vague allusions to developing a self defense mindset in a friendly, comfortable, non competitive environment.

Happened to me on my first/second aikido class. I asked whether it would help on the streets and the head instructor said "It's not meant for fighting. Principles like positioning or going with the flow may help but it's not meant for fighting." I've been in four schools so far and only in one of them did the instructor mention self-defense as a goal (and yes, IMO, their training is unrealistic from that POV).

I think this one is pretty well covered over the years

I disagree. I've read most of what's out there on aikido history and the revisionist narrative that went mainstream under the founder's son is still predominant among practitioners. The authors that have challenged that narrative, relying on historical sources (like Stanley Pranin or Christopher Li) are very marginal in the aikido world and are virtually unknown among non-English speakers. At best, it's been poorly covered.

Errr. That’s not really true. Is it? We can acknowledge the positive exceptions to the rule without throwing out the rule. Or said another way, where aikido schools are fully transparent, overtly marketing the lack of fighting, we can praise them as examples of what we would like to see more of.

There is really no authority on what aikido is, or on what it should be. You have tons of organisations with different focuses, and no one speaks for all practitioners. Hence, there is no rule to be made about aikido's marketing because it would only apply to an undefined number of schools. For what it's worth, the largest organisation (the Aikikai) does not list self-defense as a goal. Quite the contrary, the official website states that aikido does not aim to perfect a skill but is a way to develop character: About Aikido | Aikikai Foundation.

Only if they’re told overtly that aikido is not for learning any fighting or self defense. Like telling someone who plays the piano, you will learn to play music and there is value in that, but playing the piano will not help you in a fight.

I agree.

 

[Flying Crane]

This thread reminds me of the Shingrix commercial.

“I eat right and get lots of exercise.”

Shingles doesn’t care.

“I think aikido needs to convince me it is useful.”

Aikido doesn’t care.

 

[Urban Trekker]

This thread reminds me of the Shingrix commercial.

“I eat right and get lots of exercise.”

Shingles doesn’t care.

“I think aikido needs to convince me it is useful.”

Aikido doesn’t care.

Because there are enough people who are convinced to keep aikido dojos in business. Much like the guy named Billy Johnson, who can barely speak English, trying to sell you an extended car warranty doesn't care to convince you that he's not scammer. Because there are plenty of people who don't require such convincing to keep "Billy Johnson" doing what he's doing.

 

[Flying Crane]

Because there are enough people who are convinced to keep aikido dojos in business. Much like the guy named Billy Johnson, who can barely speak English, trying to sell you an extended car warranty doesn't care to convince you that he's not scammer. Because there are plenty of people who don't require such convincing to keep "Billy Johnson" doing what he's doing.

I am not at all clear on what you are trying to say here.

 

[Steve]

This thread reminds me of the Shingrix commercial.

“I eat right and get lots of exercise.”

Shingles doesn’t care.

“I think aikido needs to convince me it is useful.”

Aikido doesn’t care.

Exactly. Like folks who say, “I train for self defense”. Fighting doesn’t care. Good point.

 

[drop bear]

It depends on the goals of your training. There are lots of aikido people who can't fight but are skilled at what they seek to achieve (e.g. fluid cooperative choreography, soft falls, etc.). They may not play the songs you expect from an MMA fighter, but they still play the piano.

I have done pro wrestling I do understand the mentally of that.

 

[Hanzou]

Is Aikido marketed as a self defense? If yes, then it does have reason to prove itself. If no, then it has no reason to do so.

Indeed it is. I've even seen Aikido schools claim that learning Aikido will make you capable of defeating multiple attackers.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Indeed it is. I've even seen Aikido schools claim that learning Aikido will make you capable of defeating multiple attackers.

A GRAPPLING art is making this claim? 😯

BJJ, a grappling art whose effectiveness is almost never questioned, doesn't even make this claim.

I'd put an experienced untrained fighter who has experienced getting jumped over an aikidoka against multiple attackers. Neither would come out on top, but the aikidoka is probably going to walk away with the worse beating.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

A GRAPPLING art is making this claim? 😯

Good point. Grappling a knife isn't a good idea

 

[Hanzou]

A GRAPPLING art is making this claim? 😯

BJJ, a grappling art whose effectiveness is almost never questioned, doesn't even make this claim.

I'd put an experienced untrained fighter who has experienced getting jumped over an aikidoka against multiple attackers. Neither would come out on top, but the aikidoka is probably going to walk away with the worse beating.

Here’s one right here;

Aikido can be effectively performed even against larger, stronger attackers. At the higher levels of the art, it is equally effective against multiple attackers.

Aikido is not a sport or a game. There are no tournaments or competitions. Rather, practice is conducted in a spirit of mutual respect and cooperation. Aikido is distinguished by a highly developed moral code which seeks to protect the assailant while simultaneously neutralizing his will and ability to attack.

While Aikido is an extremely effective martial art, self-defense is considered the foundation rather than the ultimate goal of our practice. Aikido is path or “way” which, if practiced diligently, can enhance all aspects of one’s life.

Martial Arts | Aikido Center of Atlanta | United States

Oldest Aikido dojo in Atlanta, founded in 1967. Offering Online Classes for Children and Adults, as well as Advanced Classes for Adults Members. Charter Member of the United States Aikido Federation.

www.aikidocenterofatlanta.com

 

[Instructor]

Do I want to drag Hapkido into this conversation??? I guess I will.

Hapkido and Aikido are different martial arts but have some commonality.

I believe Hapkido is useful for self defense as defined as one or more hostile people trying to accost or otherwise do physical harm to self. I come to this belief because I've had to use Hapkido in a couple of real world attacks and it worked. Additionally many law enforcement folks use Hapkido to subdue violent people daily.

I've never trained Aikido so I won't comment on it. I suspect if an Aikido school focused on real attack strategies and defenses it would be fairly practical.

 

[drop bear]

Good point. Grappling a knife isn't a good idea

Not really the consensus though. Most people teach grappling as a counter to knife.

I am not completely sold.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Not really the consensus though. Most people teach grappling as a counter to knife.

I am not completely sold.

Most SD people teach not so good things... Wildly optimistic, idealistic, with parkinson level attack scenarios

 

[Urban Trekker]

When someone says "I've used x on the streets, and it works;" the best thing you can do is let it go in one ear and out the other.

The more controversial the art, the more likely someone is to make that claim.