Active shooter self defense

[Rich Parsons]

Nope. Consider these facts: If you are the only adult in a classroom full of kids and a shooter breaks in...

You can't run away.
You can't hide.
Begging, pleading, or crying and stalling for time won't work.

Furthermore, you nave no access to firearms, you may well be physically weaker than the attacker, You are caught by surprise, and you will have at best minimal physical and mental training.

So what do you recommend?

In theater Foyer entrance, I asked the guy yo go outside as we were locking up after the concert. (* The old theater had been changed to a concert location *).
He pulled a small revolver from his hoodie and I raised my hands and said "you win".
He asked "What did you say?"
I stepped closer and said "You Win" - Just a little louder.
He said "What?!?"

I said in a normal voice now within range of him , "You Win, what do you want?"
Out of the corner of my eyes I saw police outside and out of his view. So I choose not to act.
I stepped back and asked again "What do you want?"

He said, "You are crazy, pocketed the pistol and walked out into an ambush to be tackled.

This assumes that the person was not there to assassinate me directly.
It assumes that they are not there just to create a body count.
I created a diversion and engaged them with words that they were in charge.
(* Yes it did happen *)

Now I know what the next question will be . What do you do if they are there for a body count or to kill me directly.
The Assassination is the most difficult as they are there for a reason and you are the target, and most likely the first person shot is either the person that notices the firearm or their target.
In this case - Don't be a *insert derogatory descriptor here*.

For the body count, it all depends. It really does.
If you can attack from the side great.

Now to the classroom.
What is the fire escape route when the fire is right outside the door?
is it out a window? Or is it barricade and hope they get to you before the smoke does.
Assume there is multiple exits not into the same hallway.

Take the alternate exit. Call for the children to line up for the fire drill.
Have them exit the building - via door or window and check the room, and then leave.
This builds upon an already established and usually practiced a couple of times a year drill.

If no way to exit, then barricade the door. Figure a way to wedge it shut and or prohibit the door from opening with a chair or something else.

It is difficult. I do not see a 100% way to resolve this issue.
To get further into more details could lead to a post being called political and I am not trying to bait anyone into doing so.
So let us keep it to these details for now.

Not the best, just my best at the moment.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I teach high school art and ceramics. I'm old ... not in great shape ...and smaller than average. And I have very minimal H2H vs firearms training. Not enough to depend on under the stress of a real attack.

We keep our classroom doors locked when class is in session. The windows are covered. If there is a "lockdown" called, we double check the door, shut off the lights, and get the kids down on the ground, quiet, and out of the line of fire from the windows and door. And we wait. That's our school's policy.

If an attacker does breach the door, I plan on being ready off to the side of the door with a big freakin' rolling pin. I figure I might get in one clean hit. Then keep hitting as long as I can. Maybe I can knock him down, or knock his weapon down, or just get shot and die ...who knows.

If the attacker goes down I always have a few big, physical kids in my class. 17-18 year-old football players and wrestlers. I can't put them in harms way. But if they choose to dog pile and incapacitate (beat the bloody tar out of?) an attacker. I can't stop them. And I've told them as much.

BTW practicing with my escrima group, I've found that a simple downward strike from an ambush position at the side of an entryway seems to be the strongest, most instinctive, and most reliable at knocking down an extended weapon and bashing the attacker in the head. Think along the lines of a Dog Brother's "caveman" strike or chopping wood. It might work.

And yes, I know I might "die trying". Beats dying cowering behind my desk, I guess.

Not a bad plan - Having a plan is the first step

I agree with you plan for the caveman or downward strike.
it is a gross motor skill and we learn and use it in our first tantrums as we pound hammer fists on the floor or the person trying to tell us no.

The Black out windows and only one point of entrance does limit the responses.
Besides the lock, can you wedge the door or rig the handle to it cannot turn or be pulled open?
This mechanical style additional barricade can make it difficult for the attacker and they might move on to the next room.
** Assuming if you find a good solution for this you could share it **

And then the bad guy has to keep moving until they find a first responder.

 

[MR. SERNA]

If there is nowhere to run or hide will these techniques work as a last resort? How can these moves be improved?

I applaud the attempt to show a plausible combative reaction to an active shooter scenario. Unfortunately this scenario will be effective at a 2% success rate.

In order to level the playing field we the people must understand without question what is required to succeed and survive and live.

What we do know that works:

1. Armed guards at all federal banks who are trained and ready to protect the money.

2. Armed and trained personnel who protect politicians and those who require life or death level of protection.

Here are two proven examples of what is required to protect our most valuable assets in society.

Are children attend schools, these schools fall under state and federal building guidelines for protection and safeguards of the students who attend. And as such it is the state and federal governments responsibility to take active measures to protect and serve.

Our most precious resource is our children. So it is imperative that we as a society act in accordance with what works and what is proven.

In my mind as an accomplished martial artist who has seen and experienced combat, I am in aghast the sheer negligence and disdain

If there is nowhere to run or hide will these techniques work as a last resort? How can these moves be improved?

A great attempt to offer a plausible method of defense. Unfortunately the success rate is 2%.

Better to employ proven methods of self defense that has been around for a hundred years and is still utilized in these modern times.

What we know that works.

1. At all Federal banks armed and trained guards protect the money.

2. All our politicians to include high profile professionals and other people utilize armed and trained professionals who protect and serve.

In order to protect our most valuable resource OUR CHILDREN we as a society need to initiate these time tested and proven protection methods for our children.

Schools are state and federal buildings, and as such the government has a responsibility to protect and serve the students.

Mr. Serna

 

[Johnkungfu]

If there is nowhere to run or hide will these techniques work as a last resort? How can these moves be improved?

Really nowhere to hide unpredictable situation requires a way from distance. Fire alarms. Mass throwing of objects distraction and counterattacks from multiple directions. Depends on thier weapon and training. Usually frantic and no aim with intent of getting attention. Blind firing etc. Hard not to just run if you can i would be scared. But i know i need to act

 

[Olde Phart]

I think the problem is with what people think of their style of martial arts. There is this running argument about which style is best for self-defense; which is better for street fighting; how to stop an attack in 5 seconds; and on and on. This is a limited view of a training form. Not real life; not full speed; no adrenalin involved. As many of the commenters in this thread have stated: "What about . . ."; "Well if . . ." In other words, there are so many things that can happen that it is really impossible to say, "This is the Way." Unless you are a Mandalorian. In my own training, I'm thinking about possible exceptions as we go thru the forms and techniques. Great exercise . . . but I'm not going down any dark alleys voluntarily!

 

[Buka]

I applaud the attempt to show a plausible combative reaction to an active shooter scenario. Unfortunately this scenario will be effective at a 2% success rate.

In order to level the playing field we the people must understand without question what is required to succeed and survive and live.

What we do know that works:

1. Armed guards at all federal banks who are trained and ready to protect the money.

2. Armed and trained personnel who protect politicians and those who require life or death level of protection.

Here are two proven examples of what is required to protect our most valuable assets in society.

Are children attend schools, these schools fall under state and federal building guidelines for protection and safeguards of the students who attend. And as such it is the state and federal governments responsibility to take active measures to protect and serve.

Our most precious resource is our children. So it is imperative that we as a society act in accordance with what works and what is proven.

In my mind as an accomplished martial artist who has seen and experienced combat, I am in aghast the sheer negligence and disdain

A great attempt to offer a plausible method of defense. Unfortunately the success rate is 2%.

Better to employ proven methods of self defense that has been around for a hundred years and is still utilized in these modern times.

What we know that works.

1. At all Federal banks armed and trained guards protect the money.

2. All our politicians to include high profile professionals and other people utilize armed and trained professionals who protect and serve.

In order to protect our most valuable resource OUR CHILDREN we as a society need to initiate these time tested and proven protection methods for our children.

Schools are state and federal buildings, and as such the government has a responsibility to protect and serve the students.

Mr. Serna

When you say "Federal banks" are you referring to the Federal Reserve banking system?

 

[drop bear]

When you say "Federal banks" are you referring to the Federal Reserve banking system?

I watched layer cake. It has less to do with armed guards and more to do with drug money is easy money.

 

[jayoliver00]

As with all Gun type work.
Check it with water guns and super soakers.
If you get wet you are shot.

That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".

That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.

 

[lklawson]

That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".

That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.

Go on...

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".

That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.

Seems like you misspelled "silly", since you can buy excellent replicas for a fraction of that price.

 

[jayoliver00]

Seems like you misspelled "silly", since you can buy excellent replicas for a fraction of that price.

I was obviously talking about the rifles, but it seems that we're going to be trying real hard today right; so I better type like I'm under oath in a court of law or something, right?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I was obviously talking about the rifles, but it seems that we're going to be trying real hard today right; so I better type like I'm under oath in a court of law or something, right?

Still silly, since an overwhelming majority of firearm attacks are handguns.

 

[wab25]

That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".

That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.

Do these $250 replicas shoot anything... like an airsoft round or simunition round? It would be pretty amateurish to train with guns that can never shoot you... how do you know that you got off line in time or at all?

Do you take these $250 replicas and cut the trigger guards off?

 

[drop bear]

That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".

That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.

I think that is a red herring. In the same vein as training in realistic environments or in street clothes.

It is not generally the game changer that it is sold to be.

More a marketing shtick.

I have a $400 realistic sort of airsoft pistol. But I am not playing keepings off with that. Because someone will either drop or break the thing.

 

[lklawson]

I was obviously talking about the rifles, but it seems that we're going to be trying real hard today right; so I better type like I'm under oath in a court of law or something, right?

1. The standard in the firearms training community is Bluegun brand
2. Most attacks are actually made with a handgun and Bluegun Glocks hover round $50-$60
3. Even Bluegun AR's are under $200 https://www.opticsplanet.com/blue-training-guns-blue-training-guns-m4-standard-carry-hand.html
4. Inert trainers do not "shoot" anything which is what was being proposed as an important part of the training recommendation when "water gun" was suggested.

 

[jayoliver00]

I think that is a red herring. In the same vein as training in realistic environments or in street clothes.

It is not generally the game changer that it is sold to be.

More a marketing shtick.

I kind of thought that too, until I trained at this 1 Krav gym that spent the money for these props. There were shotguns, AK's, AR, pistols, etc. Prob. $3000 worth. This was when a real WASR AK semi-auto was only like $300.

It's very different grabbing at the hard plastic that's very close to the real thing, as it's not comfortable & hurts your hand the first few times. It's like getting punched in the face; the 1st few times is very alarming. Toy plastic, "super soakers" are smooth, rounded to not hurt kids and shaped like a 1970's lazer gun. And there's a lot of struggling & grip fighting with the weapon; that a toy wouldn't last a day.

 

[jayoliver00]

Still silly, since an overwhelming majority of firearm attacks are handguns.

guess if you can't afford the $250 for the rifle, then go for the $50 handguns.

 

[wab25]

I think that is a red herring. In the same vein as training in realistic environments or in street clothes.

It is not generally the game changer that it is sold to be.

More a marketing shtick.

I have a $400 realistic sort of airsoft pistol. But I am not playing keepings off with that. Because someone will either drop or break the thing.

Airsoft guns, for me, was much the same as dummy guns, as they don't really hurt.... and you have to be careful not to break them.

The biggest "game changer" was working with simunition guns. These are real guns that fire real rounds, but the round is paint instead of lead. The gun is the same size shape and weight, and operates exactly as a gun, as it is a gun. They use a lighter spring, because the round only has a primer and a little powder... but the guns are guns... and operate as such. You get the loud bang, the ejecting brass and if you get hit, there are no questions... it HURTS and leaves a welt, even through a Judo Gi. The gun can jam if you interrupt the slide and the slide will pinch you... its a real gun... shooting non-lethal ammo.

That definitely ups the game a bit. You also get to learn who hesitates to shoot, because they don't want to hurt the other guy. Still not a "real on the street" type situation, but it is much closer than water, dummy guns or airsoft.

 

[lklawson]

I kind of thought that too, until I trained at this 1 Krav gym that spent the money for these props. There were shotguns, AK's, AR, pistols, etc. Prob. $3000 worth. This was when a real WASR AK semi-auto was only like $300.

If they paid $3,000 for a passel of inert trainers then they let themselves get ripped off

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[drop bear]

I kind of thought that too, until I trained at this 1 Krav gym that spent the money for these props. There were shotguns, AK's, AR, pistols, etc. Prob. $3000 worth. This was when a real WASR AK semi-auto was only like $300.

It's very different grabbing at the hard plastic that's very close to the real thing, as it's not comfortable & hurts your hand the first few times. It's like getting punched in the face; the 1st few times is very alarming. Toy plastic, "super soakers" are smooth, rounded to not hurt kids and shaped like a 1970's lazer gun. And there's a lot of struggling & grip fighting with the weapon; that a toy wouldn't last a day.

The issue is you get busted up in a fight. The concrete scrapes your knees. The picatinny rails cut your hands to pieces, you punch people and break stuff.

But you can't really drill like that because either you can't train relentlessly. Or you start training stuff that may not work very well.