Stopping Active Shooters (mass murders that is)

Guardian

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You're confusing the supreme court decision that said that an officer has no duty to any INDIVIDUAL with the fact that we don't have a sworn duty to the public at large.

Let me clarify....JUST because we can't be sued by a lawyer for not doing it, DOES NOT mean we don't have a moral and ethical commitment of HONOR to attempt to do so.

Hope that helps.

To further illustrate this point, if you don't try for my city, you won't be working here long considering that is why you were hired by the city, as stated they might not be able to sue, but they sure as heck can release you from duty if your don't do yours.
 

Archangel M

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Anyway..the SC made that decision so that every person who fell victim to crime couldn't claim that the police failed in their duty to protect them because they didnt get there fast enough...couldnt find them...etc. It wasnt to define the role of police which is to protect and serve the public...not any individual.
 

sgtmac_46

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To further illustrate this point, if you don't try for my city, you won't be working here long considering that is why you were hired by the city, as stated they might not be able to sue, but they sure as heck can release you from duty if your don't do yours.

Exactly...and SHOULD be released.

Our policy manual refers to cowardice specifically, as i'm sure most do.
 

Drac

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Are you free to elaborate on that a little more? I'm curious as to the type of language used?

Ohhhh, the stories I could tell..I hope this thread remain active for a few months..When I am offically retired I can tell a few...
 

sgtmac_46

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Are you free to elaborate on that a little more? I'm curious as to the type of language used?

Under our Standards of Conduct policy, one of the acts considered sufficient for suspension or discharge is

'For cowardice or lack of energy which may be construed as either incompetence or neglect of duty.'

I'm sure that's pretty standard for most department policy manuals.
 

Archangel M

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While people tend to focus on the big events like active shooters as examples of "police courage"...they tend to take for granted the "everyday events" like going into burglarized buildings to look for bad guys, chasing armed robbery suspects through yards at "O dark thirty", stopping stolen cars not knowing if the occupant is armed, enter homes on domestic calls wondering if this one is going to be an ambush and countless other examples...Id like to know how often the "antis" who smirk and mock cops have to "suck it up" and go into situations like those on a regular basis?

Or even once.
 

Drac

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While people tend to focus on the big events like active shooters as examples of "police courage"...they tend to take for granted the "everyday events" like going into burglarized buildings to look for bad guys, chasing armed robbery suspects through yards at "O dark thirty", stopping stolen cars not knowing if the occupant is armed, enter homes on domestic calls wondering if this one is going to be an ambush and countless other examples...Id like to know how often the "antis" who smirk and mock cops have to "suck it up" and go into situations like those on a regular basis?

Or even once.

They dont...That's why they make those asinine comments....
 

Archangel M

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I also wonder about the "well thats what we pay you guys for" types...the ones that always crop up at contract negotiation times to gripe about how "overpaid" we are. How much would they expect to be paid if they were asked to go into a house looking for a cop killer with an AK47? Not that we do it for the money, or that I expect to be paid more than is fair, but how much would a "joe on the street" ask for if they were expected to do some of these things?

The same can be said for our soldiers, who get paid a pittance to lay down their lives for our country...while athletes, entertainers and media "talking heads" rake in million dollar contracts.

Not to mention lawyers....
 

chinto

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AMEN brother..One of the police Chief up here is against a single officer entering a bldg alone...Me, I'm going in..


Yep that is a cops job! just as if its he shoots and an innocent will die, but if he does not shoot he will die, and only him.. then its his job to take the round. cops = Peace Officer. Not some kind of accountant.
 

Guardian

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I also wonder about the "well thats what we pay you guys for" types...the ones that always crop up at contract negotiation times to gripe about how "overpaid" we are. How much would they expect to be paid if they were asked to go into a house looking for a cop killer with an AK47? Not that we do it for the money, or that I expect to be paid more than is fair, but how much would a "joe on the street" ask for if they were expected to do some of these things?

The same can be said for our soldiers, who get paid a pittance to lay down their lives for our country...while athletes, entertainers and media "talking heads" rake in million dollar contracts.

Not to mention lawyers....


I really dislike those statements also Archangel, they drive me crazy. As a retired Military Cop, I didn't get into half as many stressful situations except for the War as a regular beat cop, so I'm a strong support of our Police Force, but at the same time, I'm a strong supporter of do your job and sure you can't protect everyone, but don't throw the SC ruling up as a defense, because the individual is the public and the public is the individual, they are one (not you archangel) just an example, to many times I have heard the SC ruling used to justify laziness and just downright being worthless. It was a ruling to stop lawsuits pure and simple, there were no other words to use to put the emphasis on the ruling considering that's who it dealt with.

I concur though as for 20 years and a war I did the Military duties. This country definitely has it's values upside down in my view also.
 
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Deaf Smith

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I am not expecting a policeman, or anyone, to do something suicidal like charge across a machinegun swept field. Nor am I expecting a policeman, by himself, to go against several heavily armed men at once.

But, in a active shooter situation, I think a cop, or civilian, if they use the right tactics, will have a CHANCE, a fair chance, of pulling it off.

There have been several cases where active shooters were confronted with a armed policeman or civilian.

One was the Texas Tower Shooting. Were Charles Whitman got some rifles and went on top of the UT tower and started shooting people.

The ones going up the stairs were not a SWAT team. But they banded together to go after the gunman who was still shooting. And they didn’t wait for SWAT!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman


Tacoma Mall shooting. Brandon (Dan) McKown tried to stop a shooter with his CZ CCW pistol. Unfortunately he first challenged him to drop his gun (bad mistake.) Maldonado (the mall shooter's) response was to fire on McKown, striking him once in the leg and four times in the torso, damaging McKown's spine and leaving him paralyzed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Mall_shooting

The Tyler Courthouse incident where a Tyler Police Detective, Two Smith County Sheriff's Deputies were injured and CCW holder Mark Wilson was killed by David Hernandez Arroyo, Sr.

http://www.kltv.com/global/story.asp?S=2994393


And here is a personal account of an officer who shopped an active shooter.

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/feature.html?featureID=3593

Deaf
 

jks9199

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Yep that is a cops job! just as if its he shoots and an innocent will die, but if he does not shoot he will die, and only him.. then its his job to take the round. cops = Peace Officer. Not some kind of accountant.

No -- it's not. The cop's job is not to STUPIDLY and BLINDLY charge into danger. Nothing in my job description reads "get shot" or "get hit." But -- if I can, with reasonable regard to both my own safety and that of others, and a reasonable likelihood of reducing innocent deaths, make entry alone or with just one partner -- I'm doing it. Getting shot, getting hit, and even just being involved in a crash is a risk of the job -- but it's not a job task.

And, while I'm at it, it's not a firefighter's job to go up in flames, either.
 

sgtmac_46

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Yep that is a cops job! just as if its he shoots and an innocent will die, but if he does not shoot he will die, and only him.. then its his job to take the round. cops = Peace Officer. Not some kind of accountant.

Actually I don't plan on taking a round for anyone.....my plan is to put rounds on target, and neutralize the threat with the right mix of speed, surprise and violence of action. But the point is the same.
 

sgtmac_46

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No -- it's not. The cop's job is not to STUPIDLY and BLINDLY charge into danger. Nothing in my job description reads "get shot" or "get hit." But -- if I can, with reasonable regard to both my own safety and that of others, and a reasonable likelihood of reducing innocent deaths, make entry alone or with just one partner -- I'm doing it. Getting shot, getting hit, and even just being involved in a crash is a risk of the job -- but it's not a job task.

And, while I'm at it, it's not a firefighter's job to go up in flames, either.
I agree with the 'not to STUPIDLY' part......but it is a job risk, even if it's not written. Just as a fireman will go in to a burning building after a screaming child (even if he's perfectly justified in not doing so) the same holds true for cops......the same thing that drives us to carry a gun for a living, compels us to run toward the sound of the guns.......it's still about honor!

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself.
The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?" -William Bennett

[/FONT]
 

MR. SERNA

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Here is an excellent article on why if's necessary for the first responding officer or civilian to immediately engage any active shooter.

http://www.policeone.com/active-shoo...ctive-killers/

A few high points:

98% of active killers act alone.

80% have long guns, 75% have multiple weapons (about 3 per incident), and they sometimes bring hundreds of extra rounds of ammunition to the shooting site.

Despite such heavy armaments and an obsession with murder at close range, they have an average hit rate of less than 50%.

They strike stunned, defenseless innocents via surprise ambush. On a level playing field, the typical active killer would be a no-contest against anyone reasonably capable of defending themselves.

They absolutely control life and death until they stop at their leisure or are stopped. They do not take hostages, do not negotiate.

They generally try to avoid police, do not hide or lie in wait for officers and typically fold quickly upon armed confrontation.

90% commit suicide on-site. Surrender or escape attempts are unlikely.

Deaf
Unfortunately these statistics speak volumes to the new generation of evil doers who commit these horrific crimes.

One thing for sure there is good and evil in the world. One must be aware of this fact and be aware of your surroundings, and be prepared.

Mr. Serna
 

drop bear

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Old thread. But it seems like a huge jump to go from those statistics to that conclusion.
 

MR. SERNA

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Old thread. But it seems like a huge jump to go from those statistics to that conclusion.
Here in Seattle the criminals are battling every night shooting and killing each other and innocent bystanders, this was not the case 20 years ago.

I failed to state that as my experience. What is note worthy is the brazen acts of violence against both the police and civilians. Quite disturbing.

Mr. Serna
 

drop bear

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Here in Seattle the criminals are battling every night shooting and killing each other and innocent bystanders, this was not the case 20 years ago.

I failed to state that as my experience. What is note worthy is the brazen acts of violence against both the police and civilians. Quite disturbing.

Mr. Serna

Sorry. That conclusion as in going in to a building to stop a shooter isn't really as risky as it sounds and is the best method.

Yeah. Not arguing Seattle isn't a crap hole.
 

Steve

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Unfortunately these statistics speak volumes to the new generation of evil doers who commit these horrific crimes.

One thing for sure there is good and evil in the world. One must be aware of this fact and be aware of your surroundings, and be prepared.

Mr. Serna
I guess it depends on where in Seattle you lived.
 
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