Active Shooter Teenager Self Defense

[lklawson]

Do you mean in the time between the shooting stops, and the professional gets there?

Yes, you have it right.

In most "school shootings" the trauma professionals are barred from entry until the area is cleared by LEO. LEO are trained to ignore the wounded. At the point when LEO enters they are "on the hunt." Their goal is to find and engage the murderer as quickly as possible. That prevents the murderer from continuing the rampage. Maybe the murderer is killed or incapacitated, but even if it is just that his attention is now focused on LEO (or some other armed engagement), the murders stop. So the LEO are trained to let the wounded lay. But until the area is officially cleared, EMS is not allowed in. They don't know if there isn't another shooter waiting in ambush or booby traps, or whatever. In that time people bleed out. If someone was there with chest seals, tourniquets, and the training to use the properly, lives can be saved.

Just keep the blood in until EMS can get there and apply "real" aid.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Specifically to @lklawson - all I have to go on is what you've written, and my interpretation of those taken in relation to previous comments.

Or, you know, you could ASK me why I think first aid training is important. Crazy, I know, but it's been known to work in the past.

If that is inaccurate (and considered by you to be a strawman) then all I can suggest is that something has been lost in translation...

A straw man is where you attribute a position to someone which they have not taken, usually an absurd position, and then argue against that. In this case, you attributed to me the position "effectively you're agreeing that this sort of incident is inevitable so there's no point trying to stop them happening in the first place, better just learn to mop up after"

This is a position which I have not taken, stated, and is, prima facie, absurd.

 

[lklawson]

I don't believe there was ever a time when mass killing of children in school by a gunman was ever less reported by the news.

What do you base this on? I base my statement on time and word-count surveys of news reports. Don't take my word on it. Do a search to find out if word-counts, number of stories, and air-times have changed.

That idea makes no sense.

Nah. Makes perfect sense. If it bleeds it leads is true more now than ever. And some political stuff which I'll avoid.

 

[lklawson]

Stats on CPR aren't all that encouraging. The gist of what I've read on the subject indicates that it's not often used, and seldom effective even when someone receives it. Better than nothing, though, I guess.

I think some basic first aid is reasonable, but I'm not confident that even CPR certification will create people competent to administer CPR in a crisis.

Apparently there has been a shift in CPR methods recently to a stronger emphasis on heavy chest compressions and demphasizing rescue breaths.

CPR a Decade Ago vs. CPR Today: What's Changed
New resuscitation guidelines update CPR chest pushes - News on Heart.org
Why Did the Steps for CPR Change from A-B-C to C-A-B? | American Heart Association Authorized Provider of CPR, AED, & First Aid Training | EMC CPR & Safety Training

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

What do you base this on? I base my statement on time and word-count surveys of news reports. Don't take my word on it. Do a search to find out if word-counts, number of stories, and air-times have changed.

Nah. Makes perfect sense. If it bleeds it leads is true more now than ever. And some political stuff which I'll avoid.

The most complete list of school shootings I can find is on Wikipedia. If you know of a better place to look, I'm open.

Just based on a straight count of all shootings in the USA in schools (including colleges and universities): To be clear, not all of these resulted in death, and not all were other students. One, for example, was a college student who killed his parents and himself on a college campus. The point, though, is that this is as complete a list of ALL school shootings I could locate.

1960s: 18
1970s: 30
1980s: 39
1990s: 62 (Columbine was by far the most destructive in 1999)
2000s: 63
2010-14: 92
2015 to Present: 55

I have no way to know whether this list is incomplete, but as I say above, this is the most complete list I can find. We saw an uptick in the 70s, which based on a quick read of the list seems to be a result of all of the Vietnam war protests and such. It seems to indicate that the 90s represent one significant uptick, and since 2010, we have seen a significant increase in the incident rate.

I also know that my kids have a vocabulary that was completely unknown to me, including things like soft and hard lockdowns, and my 9 year old's school has active shooter drills. And I went to an urban high school where drive by shootings were known to occur.

I'm posting this not to make a political point, but to support my belief that (like it or not) we live in a different era, and our kids are facing things most of us did not.

 

[lklawson]

The most complete list of school shootings I can find is on Wikipedia. If you know of a better place to look, I'm open.

It's a slightly misleading stat and seeded with redefined information. Here's a better source.

Mass Shootings Are Getting Deadlier, Not More Frequent

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[hoshin1600]

Someone just did invent this. Free to schools too. App for smart phones.

Smart Safety for Organizations - Mayday Safety

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

there an APP Dave Grossman recommends, not sure if this is the same one. it still relies on people with cell phones and teachers, students and LEO to sign up for the service. that kind of defeats the effectiveness of it. not as good as a pull fire alarm style hard wired system but better than nothing.

 

[lklawson]

there an APP Dave Grossman recommends, not sure if this is the same one. it still relies on people with cell phones and teachers, students and LEO to sign up for the service. that kind of defeats the effectiveness of it. not as good as a pull fire alarm style hard wired system but better than nothing.

I hesitated before writing this. I don't want to give important intel to the bad guys. After thinking about it, I've decided that they probably already have it.

Fire Alarms have become part of the murderer's plan. The Florida murderer pulled the fire alarm to draw out targets. If everyone is exiting the school, dumping into the halls, they can't "shelter in place" inside class rooms and block the doors. This is now part of their playbook.

Any sort of auto-report-auto-alarm system which does not have an independent verification process potentially suffers from a similar possibility of abuse.

Think about how a person bent on harm could misuse such an auto-reporting technology as a pull-switch "school shooter" alarm. I'm sure you can come up with one or two. I'm not going to volunteer any.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

It's a slightly misleading stat and seeded with redefined information. Here's a better source.

Mass Shootings Are Getting Deadlier, Not More Frequent

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

is that in schools, Kirk? I think that article is conflating all mass shootings (4 or more victims in a public place). Related, certainly, but not the same.

 

[lklawson]

is that in schools, Kirk? I think that article is conflating all mass shootings (4 or more victims in a public place). Related, certainly, but not the same.

Schools is just a subset. It's where shooters have been driven to from other locations for a variety of reasons including legal, social, and political.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Schools is just a subset. It's where shooters have been driven to from other locations for a variety of reasons including legal, social, and political.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

True, but an adult, for example, might legally carry a concealed weapon, which changes the dynamic completely. Kids in a school cannot. There's crossover, but there are also some important differences. And I want to also draw a distinction between "mass" shootings, and shootings in schools. According to the article you're referencing, the shooting in Great Mills, MD last week would not count, but I think it is relevant to this discussion even though only two people (one victim and the shooter) were killed, and one person was injured.

 

[wab25]

One of the issues I have with the current procedures: having the kids hide in the closet or huddled up together in a corner... is that it removes the need for skill by the shooter. Once he gets into a class room, he is presented with a barrel of kids to shoot at, as fast as he can pull the trigger... he doesn't even have to aim much, there are 20-30 people in that closet, not able to move.

I think running makes the shots harder as does distance. But we need to avoid the choke points where hundreds of kids are running through the same set of doors... this again removes the need of skill from the shooter.

I know we were asked not to talk about school construction here as it leads to politics.... But I would like to make a small suggestion. Every classroom needs 2 exit doors going different directions. Both should be the same heavy duty, lockable doors they are putting into schools now and they need to be lockable by a key.

When an incident begins, all the doors are locked. When the shooter comes down the hall, the teacher sends the kids out the other door, locking it behind them. This puts 2 doors, between the kids and the bad guy. This will add more time for the shooter to get to the kids, as he has to get through 2 doors, not one. This is also adding distance, as the kids keep going. If they end up outside, they run to the far end of the field and keep going. If they are in a hallway, they run down the hallway spreading out, going for the exits, then across the fields. By only have they classrooms in the area of the shooter emptying, the hallways and doorways should not jam up, allowing kids to put distance between them and the shooter. Because the classrooms will empty in response to where the shooter goes, he will not be able to set up an ambush (unless they start working in teams).

Responding in this fashion slows the shooters approach to the kids, puts more doors between the shooter and kids, puts distance between the kids and the shooter and gives the shooter much harder shots. The cost being the extra door on the class room.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

True, but an adult, for example, might legally carry a concealed weapon, which changes the dynamic completely. Kids in a school cannot. There's crossover, but there are also some important differences. And I want to also draw a distinction between "mass" shootings, and shootings in schools. According to the article you're referencing, the shooting in Great Mills, MD last week would not count, but I think it is relevant to this discussion even though only two people (one victim and the shooter) were killed, and one person was injured.

I think the other thing to keep in mind that kirk's stats show is percentage. Yours was an increase in the base number of shootings, I do not know how that compares to the overall high-school-aged population at the different time periods you mentioned, but I'd guess it has at least some impact on the drastic increase.

 

[Steve]

I think the other thing to keep in mind that kirk's stats show is percentage. Yours was an increase in the base number of shootings, I do not know how that compares to the overall high-school-aged population at the different time periods you mentioned, but I'd guess it has at least some impact on the drastic increase.

Good point.

Thinking about it, though, I'm not sure the population of high school aged kids is significantly different now as in the 00s, but we're on pace to triple the number of incidents in the 10s as in the 00s. (62 in the 90s, 63 in the 00s, and so far from 2010 to present, we're at 147).

 

[hoshin1600]

Any sort of auto-report-auto-alarm system which does not have an independent verification process potentially suffers from a similar possibility of abuse.

maybe we have different ideas on what this should entail. i am not saying a on sight shooter system (i dont like to use that term, i prefer killer) should be like a fire alarm, but it should set police in motion. we have the technology to link multiple systems together, a reverse 911 call could be sent to the school for verification from administrators or whatever is necessary. but police need to be at the school quicker. every second is one life.
we have technology we are not using.

 

[lklawson]

True, but an adult, for example, might legally carry a concealed weapon, which changes the dynamic completely.

I agree. Those are some of the reasons which I am referring to, driven by social, legal, and political reasons.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

I agree. Those are some of the reasons which I am referring to, driven by social, legal, and political reasons.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think we might agree on the problem, but not the solution. But that's a discussion for another time.

 

[lklawson]

I think we might agree on the problem, but not the solution. But that's a discussion for another time.

Maybe. What I think is the source of the problem and what I think is the most effective solution are pretty much verboten in this thread. Touches on way too much politics and social commentary.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think we might agree on the problem, but not the solution. But that's a discussion for another time.

Yup. Problem itself is clear. What can solve that problem is a discussion for a different time/place. All we can discuss here is ways to try to alleviate the problem (teaching the teenagers) until a solution is found, or the problem disappears.

 

[lklawson]

Yup. Problem itself is clear. What can solve that problem is a discussion for a different time/place. All we can discuss here is ways to try to alleviate the problem (teaching the teenagers) until a solution is found, or the problem disappears.

There is a third solution, if unconventional.

If the problem is (shorthand) defined as douchbags shooting teenagers in schools, then if we make teenagers go away, there is no more problem!

(I keed, I keed!)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk (Thinking outside the box)