Active shooter self defense

[drop bear]

Almost any kind of simulation ammo (even paintballs from guns that don’t operate much like real guns) will change how folks view their defensive approach to guns. Allow contact, and you get a much better simulation than most of us got when training “disarms”.

Yeah. I think being able to haul of and punch people changes the dynamics a bit

 

[CatherineSSingleton]

These are good self defence techniques.

 

[lklawson]

These are good self defence techniques.

They're not intended as "self defense" and aren't presented as such.

 

[wab25]

I am with everyone else here... I would like to see the little guy use these on the big guy... But, there are some even bigger issues here.

First, this all presupposes that you can get that close to the guy with the gun in the first place. Getting to that position will take much more skill than any technique done from that position. Or, you could get lucky, and just end up there when the guy starts shooting.

Try this (not really...) find someone that shoots at a range regularly... find them at a time out side the range, when they are not expecting it and fire a gun next to them. Watch their reaction. Watch the reaction of people who are unfamiliar with shooting when a gun is unexpectedly fired next to them. Trying to control the initial surprise and panic, and then choose to attack the guy who shot the gun will be beyond most people. Especially if the guy continues to shoot.

Its one thing to do a drill... its another to do the drill when you are not expecting to do it, with real guns... its quite another thing to do when its not a drill.

To be fair, all gun disarm techniques suffer from this same thing. We always discuss getting off line (unless you study krav...) controlling the weapon, controlling the other guy, leverage, grips.... But we rarely address the mindset needed. We rarely address how to overcome the surprise and shock. This is why I am not a fan of teaching weapons disarms to new students... we give them this false sense that they can handle a weapon situation, because they did it 10 times with a willing partner, who wanted them to succeed.

If you end up in the position this video starts from... the biggest issue is: can you enter into combat? Can you flip the switch and be brutal enough, fast enough? If you can do that, it does not matter whether you use this technique, a double leg take down, O'goshi or a spin kick to the head.... they will mostly likely work... heck you could football tackle the guy...

 

[lklawson]

I am with everyone else here... I would like to see the little guy use these on the big guy... But, there are some even bigger issues here.

First, this all presupposes that you can get that close to the guy with the gun in the first place. Getting to that position will take much more skill than any technique done from that position. Or, you could get lucky, and just end up there when the guy starts shooting.

The video starts off by saying that the murderer is busy aiming at some 3rd party when the defender comes in from the side, in some sort of ambush type context. I think they are presupposing that the murderer has tunnel-vision on the next victim and isn't capable of noticing someone moving in from the side.

The immediate effects of adrenal dump stress on perception are fairly well understood at this point and, to be fair, tunnel-vision is one of them so there might be some validity to this assumption.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[auntlisa1103]

The founding GM of my school taught that a man with a gun is a 100th degree black belt.

Honestly, if there’s nowhere to hide, play dead and pray. MA training doesn’t make us infallible.

 

[lklawson]

Honestly, if there’s nowhere to hide, play dead and pray. MA training doesn’t make us infallible.

Doesn't work. History, studies, and stats all indicate that trying to play dead just gets you shot.

What does work? Cover, concealment, and movement.

Rules for a Gunfight:

1. Move to cover
   1. If cover isn't available move to concealment
   2. If concealment isn't available keep moving (moving reduces chances of being hit by 30+% and reduces chances of being hit in torso by 40%)
   3. Standing still gets you shot - If you stand still in a gunfight you have an 85% chance of being shot, and 51% chance of being shot in the torso. - STAND, MOVE, OR SEEK COVER…WHAT WORKS IN A GUNFIGHT?

1. Gain distance
   1. Experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and 15 ft.
   2. Further is - novices (naiveshooter.pdf) dramatically dropped of at 18 ft. http://www.forcescience.org/articles/naiveshooter.pdf

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[wab25]

I think they are presupposing that the murderer has tunnel-vision on the next victim and isn't capable of noticing someone moving in from the side.

The immediate effects of adrenal dump stress on perception are fairly well understood at this point and, to be fair, tunnel-vision is one of them so there might be some validity to this assumption.

For arguments sake, lets say these are true... the murderer has 100% tunnel vision and is incapable of noticing someone to the side. How many people are going to move in and attack the guy shooting the gun? We have seen law enforcement officers, in body armor and with their own guns... fail to respond, fail to move towards and engage the murderer with their own gun... This is not a knock on law enforcement, but pointing out that getting people to engage in real life and death combat is very different than doing drills. Knowing the statistics and being proficient in the best techniques is one thing, having the mindset to enter into life and death combat, where someone is most likely going to die, is a very different thing. Memorizing a kata, and using the right colored thing to hold your gi top closed, does not automatically prepare you to fight an armed opponent to the death, much less initiate that combat, when you could be running away to safety.

 

[wab25]

Rules for a Gunfight:

I was always told that the first rule of a gun fight is to bring a gun

 

[Ji Yuu]

The only problem that I have with these techniques, which I think is worth mentioning, is the fact that the defender ends up on the ground with his arms pinned AND fully committed to restraining the attacker; you're at a stalemate. You've put yourself at a dead end and if there is an accomplice you didn't know about, it's over for you.

 

[geezer]

....when you could be running away to safety.

Nope. Consider these facts: If you are the only adult in a classroom full of kids and a shooter breaks in...

You can't run away.
You can't hide.
Begging, pleading, or crying and stalling for time won't work.

Furthermore, you nave no access to firearms, you may well be physically weaker than the attacker, You are caught by surprise, and you will have at best minimal physical and mental training.

So what do you recommend?

 

[wab25]

Nope. Consider these facts: If you are the only adult in a classroom full of kids and a shooter breaks in...

You can't run away.
You can't hide.
Begging, pleading, or crying and stalling for time won't work.

Furthermore, you nave no access to firearms, you may well be physically weaker than the attacker, You are caught by surprise, and you will have at best minimal physical and mental training.

So what do you recommend?

Are ALL active shooters in classrooms full of kids?

What I do recommend is spending some amount of the training time addressing what it will take to enter into combat for real. Pretending that showing them one or two techniques will get them to engage is not sufficient. In fact, we can't even get all the trained law enforcement officers and all trained military to enter into combat. Showing people a technique that may or may not work, and requires certain circumstances to be presented for it to work at all and then assuming these same people will initiate combat when their life depends on it, is not enough.

And if you are the only adult in the classroom full of kids, when the shooter runs in... you are not in the position required for these techniques to work... he already knows the teacher is in there, and already in front of the shooter...

 

[lklawson]

How many people are going to move in and attack the guy shooting the gun?

Very few without training, but some, nevertheless. Historically, we've seen people with enough pretense of mind to drape themselves over potential victims to act as a human shield (which didn't work) and some who rush the attacker (which sometimes works). These are the exception rather than the rule, but there are a few here and there.

We have seen law enforcement officers, in body armor and with their own guns... fail to respond, fail to move towards and engage the murderer with their own gun...

Yes we have, but that is irrelevant to this discussion and could get the thread shutdown.

This is not a knock on law enforcement,

I have no problem calling out cowardice or bad behavior. This thread my not be the right place for it, but don't think that doing so is an indictment against all LE.

but pointing out that getting people to engage in real life and death combat is very different than doing drills.

It is, but it isn't. What we've found is that there is often a mental barrier to action. There are many things which can lower that barrier and, yes, doing drills does help lower that barrier. Other things that lower the barrier include increasing levels of fake "realism" within the drills, discussing with others the proper responses, visualization and mental rehearsals, etc. Basically your automatic responses, what I call "Robodroid" is stupid and will only follow programs you've fed it and ingrained to it. The more programming you can feed to Robodroid which says to it, "I've been here before and this is the program I run" the less likely you will be to freeze and the more likely you will be to act. These drills and scenarios should eventually ramp up to include some sort of mental "stress."

So, no, doing drills isn't the same as "real life" but, Robodroid is stupid and has trouble telling the difference between real life and fantasy when being programmed so, yes, drills can actually improve the likelihood of action.

Knowing the statistics and being proficient in the best techniques is one thing, having the mindset to enter into life and death combat, where someone is most likely going to die, is a very different thing. Memorizing a kata, and using the right colored thing to hold your gi top closed, does not automatically prepare you to fight an armed opponent to the death, much less initiate that combat, when you could be running away to safety.

"Mindset" isn't something that just happens and it's rarely "innate." It's trained.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

The only problem that I have with these techniques, which I think is worth mentioning, is the fact that the defender ends up on the ground with his arms pinned AND fully committed to restraining the attacker; you're at a stalemate. You've put yourself at a dead end and if there is an accomplice you didn't know about, it's over for you.

And I doubt how well they would work.

 

[Buka]

It's challenging to work in schools. It's challenging to wear a badge and a firearm. Doing both, harder still.

But the bottom line, in my opinion, protect everyone at all costs. Even with your life. That's what you're there for.

 

[geezer]

I teach high school art and ceramics. I'm old ... not in great shape ...and smaller than average. And I have very minimal H2H vs firearms training. Not enough to depend on under the stress of a real attack.

We keep our classroom doors locked when class is in session. The windows are covered. If there is a "lockdown" called, we double check the door, shut off the lights, and get the kids down on the ground, quiet, and out of the line of fire from the windows and door. And we wait. That's our school's policy.

If an attacker does breach the door, I plan on being ready off to the side of the door with a big freakin' rolling pin. I figure I might get in one clean hit. Then keep hitting as long as I can. Maybe I can knock him down, or knock his weapon down, or just get shot and die ...who knows.

If the attacker goes down I always have a few big, physical kids in my class. 17-18 year-old football players and wrestlers. I can't put them in harms way. But if they choose to dog pile and incapacitate (beat the bloody tar out of?) an attacker. I can't stop them. And I've told them as much.

BTW practicing with my escrima group, I've found that a simple downward strike from an ambush position at the side of an entryway seems to be the strongest, most instinctive, and most reliable at knocking down an extended weapon and bashing the attacker in the head. Think along the lines of a Dog Brother's "caveman" strike or chopping wood. It might work.

And yes, I know I might "die trying". Beats dying cowering behind my desk, I guess.

 

[wab25]

Yes we have, but that is irrelevant to this discussion and could get the thread shutdown.

I have no problem calling out cowardice or bad behavior. This thread my not be the right place for it, but don't think that doing so is an indictment against all LE.

My intent was not to get political or into topics that would shut down the thread. Nor was I calling anyone out as a coward or for bad behavior. I was trying to point out that law enforcement and military are still human beings and that even with all the training they get... sometimes the human part of them just freezes anyway. Rory Miller was doing a bunch of research on that years ago, and at the time was concluding that its very hard to tell whether you are going fight or freeze in the next combat situation... even if you fought the last time, you could still freeze this time. (still trying to find those references... I read them years ago)

It is, but it isn't. What we've found is that there is often a mental barrier to action. There are many things which can lower that barrier and, yes, doing drills does help lower that barrier. Other things that lower the barrier include increasing levels of fake "realism" within the drills, discussing with others the proper responses, visualization and mental rehearsals, etc. Basically your automatic responses, what I call "Robodroid" is stupid and will only follow programs you've fed it and ingrained to it. The more programming you can feed to Robodroid which says to it, "I've been here before and this is the program I run" the less likely you will be to freeze and the more likely you will be to act. These drills and scenarios should eventually ramp up to include some sort of mental "stress."

So, no, doing drills isn't the same as "real life" but, Robodroid is stupid and has trouble telling the difference between real life and fantasy when being programmed so, yes, drills can actually improve the likelihood of action.

Yes, I agree. This is what I am talking about, doing things to specifically lower that barrier.

"Mindset" isn't something that just happens and it's rarely "innate." It's trained.

This is what I am trying to get at. The "Mindset" and lowering the barrier to action are often left out or treated as an after thought. In my opinion, these are more important than teaching a specific technique. Teaching people how to lower that barrier, how to engage that "mindset" and how to engage Robodroid will go further. Yes, you have to put programs into Robodroid... But you can put programs in, in ways that lower the barrier to action and that help train the mindset.

 

[geezer]

I teach high school art and ceramics. I'm old ... not in great shape ...and smaller than average. And I have very minimal H2H vs firearms training. Not enough to depend on under the stress of a real attack.

We keep our classroom doors locked when class is in session. The windows are covered. If there is a "lockdown" called, we double check the door, shut off the lights, and get the kids down on the ground, quiet, and out of the line of fire from the windows and door. And we wait. That's our school's policy.

If an attacker does breach the door, I plan on being ready off to the side of the door with a big freakin' rolling pin. I figure I might get in one clean hit. Then keep hitting as long as I can. Maybe I can knock him down, or knock his weapon down, or just get shot and die ...who knows.

If the attacker goes down I always have a few big, physical kids in my class. 17-18 year-old football players and wrestlers. I can't put them in harms way. But if they choose to dog pile and incapacitate (beat the bloody tar out of?) an attacker. I can't stop them. And I've told them as much.

BTW practicing with my escrima group, I've found that a simple downward strike from an ambush position at the side of an entryway seems to be the strongest, most instinctive, and most reliable at knocking down an extended weapon and bashing the attacker in the head. Think along the lines of a Dog Brother's "caveman" strike or chopping wood. It might work.

And yes, I know I might "die trying". Beats dying cowering behind my desk, I guess.

BTW that rolling pin is like 24+ inches long and massive. Also, the baseball/softball payers check their equipment bags behind my desk, so I can almost always get ahold of a bat. That's useful.

 

[lklawson]

This is what I am trying to get at. The "Mindset" and lowering the barrier to action are often left out or treated as an after thought. In my opinion, these are more important than teaching a specific technique. Teaching people how to lower that barrier, how to engage that "mindset" and how to engage Robodroid will go further. Yes, you have to put programs into Robodroid... But you can put programs in, in ways that lower the barrier to action and that help train the mindset.

Agreed.

You can also program Robodroid with stuff that just doesn't actually work. He's dumb. He doesn't know better. He just runs programs.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

What I’ve found from working in the violence industry - that's what I call it - is there’s one thing that works better for all concerned. The ability, through training (and perhaps from individual personality) to say to yourself GO.

And then going, immediately, consequences be damned. Easy to say, sure. And easy to do once you’ve done it just one time.