Active Shooter Teenager Self Defense

[oftheherd1]

Someone just did invent this. Free to schools too. App for smart phones.

Smart Safety for Organizations - Mayday Safety

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

That might have possibilities. Thanks for the link.

 

[lklawson]

I appreciate the article @lklawson . In the article, the emphasis seems to be simply to move to cover... with the coda of "return fire." Are you saying that there is no real training that would benefit a teenager? Running, and looking for cover seems very sensible, and I've seen many articles recently that discuss a shift from the "lockdown" mentality to more of a "get the hell out fast" one.

Just going by evidence-driven statistics of "what actually works."

But I don't know that this would require a lot of training. Returning fire doesn't seem practical or advisable.

Not the students, per se, but as a part of a wholistic game-plan. Again, from an evidence-driven research paradigm:

"Professor Eric Dietz, previously the executive director for the Indiana Department of Homeland Security, conducted research in 2014 that found having either an armed guard or armed staff on school grounds can reduce the number of casualties in a mass shooting situation by up to 70 percent by, at the very least, slowing an attacker."
Research shows armed teachers could reduce casualties

And page 11 of FASTER
http://fastersaveslives.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/FASTER-White-Paper_REV032816.pdf

If you guys were going to create a "self defense" course for teenagers with the goal of reducing their risk in an active shooter situation, what else might you include beyond the above?

Honestly? That's it. Unarmed against a person with a gun, these are the most effective strategies.

If you want the plan for the "fight" part of it, here it is: Find a way to close. Guns are like a thrusting sword or knife with infinite range. Get inside the range, "pass the point" and control the limb. It's linear. Then beat the ever love'n snot out and maybe do a takedown. I'm assuming that the victims are completely disarmed of "weapons" (such as knives) so it's only "improvised weapons." Pencils and books suck as weapons, but they're sometimes better than nothing.

Also, to clarify, in an effort to avoid the politics, I suggest we consider schools as they are and focus on things the kids can do for themselves. If we get into other things, such as school planning/construction, arming teachers, or changing gun laws, this will surely stray into politics.

Hard to avoid politics because it is such a politicized topic.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

The only thing I could ask kids to do is...if you hear or see something report it.

Most of these "school shooters" were reported. The douchbag in Florida was reported multiple times. The FBI already had a warning as said douchbag wrote online what his plans were and an observer reported it. The local police went to the douchebag's home dozens of times.

Said douchebag was apparently voted for the yearbook "most likely to be a school shooter."

People saw. People reported. Nothing was done. Mostly for political reasons if reports are to be believed (money for raw numbers of school students and money for kids not arrested).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Firstly, that guy recommending CPR - it's painfully obvious that he knows less about trauma first aid than I know about interpretive dance.

I suppose there are worse things than CPR you could do to a gunshot victim, like you could shoot them again, or maybe stab them...

While I agree that trauma care is different for a gunshot the point of the original statement wasn't about what to do for a gunshot but what would be a better use of time and resources for the students calling for gun control. Their time would be more effectively used and more people would be saved, statistically speaking, if they spent their time learning CPR instead of the time they spend promoting gun control laws.

That said, a basic First Aid course which covers CPR and Trauma would be a great idea for almost everyone.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

In reality, there is no 'self defence' a teenager can effect against a determined armed attacker, and the suggestion gets even more preposterous as the age goes down. They're not exactly going to stand up and de-escalate the situation, and what physical option does a 12/13 year old have against someone armed (with anything from a hammer to a rifle)?

Depends on the teenager. I worked with one 13 year old boy who was already 160 and 5'7". He has just as much physicality as most adults.

To suggest teaching "CPR" is hugely misinformed, but it's making the political statement that "hey, these things are going to happen, let's give the victims something to do after".

Without commenting on the political aspect, my take on it was this politician was saying that the students calling for gun control are wasting their time and their time would be better spent learning CPR. I'm deliberately trying to avoid commenting on whether or not I agree with the statement.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[pdg]

While I agree that trauma care is different for a gunshot the point of the original statement wasn't about what to do for a gunshot but what would be a better use of time and resources for the students calling for gun control. Their time would be more effectively used and more people would be saved, statistically speaking, if they spent their time learning CPR instead of the time they spend promoting gun control laws.

So effectively you're agreeing that this sort of incident is inevitable so there's no point trying to stop them happening in the first place, better just learn to mop up after?

While it's a waste of time to campaign for half hearted laws that don't do much, if anything, would it not be better to recommend spending that time on identifying and fixing the actual cause?

That said, a basic First Aid course which covers CPR and Trauma would be a great idea for almost everyone.

That much I agree with, everyone should know first aid - but I feel my reasons for that are somewhat different to yours...

 

[lklawson]

The phrase "duck and cover" springs to mind.

Did you click through to my article?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[pdg]

Without commenting on the political aspect, my take on it was this politician was saying that the students calling for gun control are wasting their time and their time would be better spent learning CPR. I'm deliberately trying to avoid commenting on whether or not I agree with the statement

Try as you might, there is (apparently) no way to escape the political side of it.

Saying people are wasting their time campaigning and lobbying is in itself a political statement, as is supporting a proposal to introduce policies about what they should do instead.

 

[lklawson]

you shouldn't really have to learn first aid, from my thinking. Either the situation has been fixed in which case the professionals should be there in seconds, or it hasn't in which case it would be risky going to the other child to administer first aid.

First Aid, really Trauma Care, is what you do after the shooting. I recall seeing some statistics which suggest that 50% or more of deaths from gunshots in these sort of events could have been prevented with proper application of tourniquets and chest seals. The idea isn't to be a combat medic, just to keep the injured "in the game" until a higher level of care can get there.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

We did not used to have a real problem with firearms in the US either.

Not even that. Statistics show that mass school shootings aren't any more numerous now than in the past. In fact, they may be a tad lower depending one which statistical collection method you prefer. They're not more common but they are much more blasted out in the news.

https://www.quora.com/How-can-we-stop-the-school-shootings

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

So effectively you're agreeing that this sort of incident is inevitable so there's no point trying to stop them happening in the first place, better just learn to mop up after?

I did not write that. Please do not play that game.

What I wrote, again, is that I believe that Santorum's statement was intended to mean that he believes that the students are wasting their time and effort and that their time and effort would be better spent in learning CPR if their intention is to save lives.

I have specifically refrained from stating my opinions on the efficacy of gun control laws or whether or not the students would actually be better off learning CPR instead or if their efforts are a waste of time.

Please do not engage in straw man arguments with me. It is insulting.

While it's a waste of time to campaign for half hearted laws that don't do much, if anything, would it not be better to recommend spending that time on identifying and fixing the actual cause?

What I believe is the actual cause is outside of the bounds of the subject of this thread.

That much I agree with, everyone should know first aid - but I feel my reasons for that are somewhat different to yours...

I'm not sure that you know what my reasons are and I'm sure that I don't know what yours are. And, at the moment, I'm still a little cheezed at you so I'm going to refrain from speculation.

 

[lklawson]

Try as you might, there is (apparently) no way to escape the political side of it.

Look, stop trying to take this thread political.

Saying people are wasting their time campaigning and lobbying is in itself a political statement, as is supporting a proposal to introduce policies about what they should do instead.

Of course it is. I've written that 5 times now. I've also written repeatedly that I am avoiding commenting on the veracity of that statement. And, in this thread, I recommend you do the same. MT has rules about politics.

 

[Steve]

Hey guys. I have like 5 minutes to post something, but I appreciate the discussion.

My thoughts, building on what I was thinking before, and after reading the comments, are that the real key here is preventative. Once an event is occurring, the cards are stacked in the favor of the person who is armed. Honestly, some of this is what I teach new supervisors to do. We're not Bruce Willis types, but we are responsible for the safety of our employees.

So, things that kids can do before an event has occurred

1: Give some thought to what you would do if something happens. Think about where the exits are, and visualize some "what if" scenarios.
2: Take care of your friends, treat people well, and don't be a bully. Sometimes, the victims in these events are completely random. Sometimes, they are bullies (or perceived bullies) and are the primary targets.
3: Report suspicious behavior and understand that this isn't ratting out your peers.
4: Related to 2 above (and this might be hard), but don't stigmatize mental illness, and don't dismiss drug or alcohol abuse as benign.
5: Exercise and mind your fitness.

If something is occurring, I honestly can't think of anything better than to run away, if possible, and find cover if not. The only thing I might add is related to 1, which is to be decisive. If you're going to run, run like hell. If you're going to fight, fight like hell. Don't stop.

I'll just end by saying that I agree that the causes and possible solutions to this situation are outside the bounds of this discussion. I think there's value in discussing the situation as it is.

 

[lklawson]

What does "effective self defense" look like in American schools these days?

I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but this might be useful:

https://try.usconcealedcarry.net/aar-complete-mass-shootings-survival-guide/?tID=5aabccbcd65ac

 

[Grenadier]

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[Monkey Turned Wolf]

First Aid, really Trauma Care, is what you do after the shooting. I recall seeing some statistics which suggest that 50% or more of deaths from gunshots in these sort of events could have been prevented with proper application of tourniquets and chest seals. The idea isn't to be a combat medic, just to keep the injured "in the game" until a higher level of care can get there.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Do you mean in the time between the shooting stops, and the professional gets there?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That said, a basic First Aid course which covers CPR and Trauma would be a great idea for almost everyone.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Ignoring everything else on the topic, this sounds like a good idea in general. Schools teach CPR, but with all the different ways someone can get injured, a basic first aid/first responder course could be very useful. I learned/taught that stuff for BSA, and have had to use the knowledge from it a bunch of times (in and out of scouts). Never for anything big, but just basic knowledge that makes life easier when someone gets hurt.

 

[pdg]

I'll cease involvement in this thread after this. Mainly because I'm incapable of looking at the effect without considering the cause, and it's now clear that anything to do with the cause is political...

I never meant for any of my comments to have a political slant, but after I was accused of doing so I reinterpreted what I'd said (and used the same interpretation of other's comments) and the majority - mine and others - can have political undertones.

Specifically to @lklawson - all I have to go on is what you've written, and my interpretation of those taken in relation to previous comments. If that is inaccurate (and considered by you to be a strawman) then all I can suggest is that something has been lost in translation...

 

[DaveB]

Not even that. Statistics show that mass school shootings aren't any more numerous now than in the past. In fact, they may be a tad lower depending one which statistical collection method you prefer. They're not more common but they are much more blasted out in the news.

https://www.quora.com/How-can-we-stop-the-school-shootings

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I don't believe there was ever a time when mass killing of children in school by a gunman was ever less reported by the news.

That idea makes no sense.

 

[Steve]

Ignoring everything else on the topic, this sounds like a good idea in general. Schools teach CPR, but with all the different ways someone can get injured, a basic first aid/first responder course could be very useful. I learned/taught that stuff for BSA, and have had to use the knowledge from it a bunch of times (in and out of scouts). Never for anything big, but just basic knowledge that makes life easier when someone gets hurt.

Stats on CPR aren't all that encouraging. The gist of what I've read on the subject indicates that it's not often used, and seldom effective even when someone receives it. Better than nothing, though, I guess.

I think some basic first aid is reasonable, but I'm not confident that even CPR certification will create people competent to administer CPR in a crisis.