Accepting rank from other organizations

[Kacey]

This kind of builds on bushidomartialarts thread about rank, and kind of doesn't. If you were contacted by someone who offered you a rank in his/her style because of your contributions to the arts in general, would you take a rank....say 5th dan from a 9th Dan, without a test, without knowing the system, and knowing that you will be now out ranking people who worked many more years to get to their 3rd, 4th and 5th dans? Doesn't this action violate some of the core tenets of the martial arts in general? What would you do, and what if anything would you say or do if this was your organization or school?

I'll post my answer later; I don't want to limit the discussion by posting my answer now.

 

[searcher]

I would not take it. I have no reason to accept a rank from something I don't know anything about. If I need another certificate I can make up an organization and use a banner program to create my certificates. And the only thing this does is take up more space on my wall, which I happen to like as is.

 

[Blindside]

The only person who can give me rank is my instructor, or someone who has been on the floor with me for a long time. I've restarted at white belt four times now when I went to learn a new system, that doesn't change just because I now wear a black.

Lamont

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Absolutely not and I have no interest in any of the rank organizations out there. (they are all self serving organizations after all and that goes for any Hall of Fame as well)

 

[terryl965]

Heaven NO if I want the rank I will do the same as before train for thirty years in that particular art and recieve the right way, Blood sweet and pain oh glorious pain.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have actually been thinking about this for some time now. Gene LaBell's refusal of numerous gift ranks led me to think this way.

A person who has made great contributions to an art in general should be honoured by that art. In most cases it is done through the gift of rank. It seems quite fair, but there is no way to distinguish this rank from the rank that the same person has worked so diligently for.

Academia awards honourary degrees to people who they feel have contributed to society in some way. Why not use a similar system in MAs? One could then list one's rank and then all then honours one has been given by other schools. The distinction would make it clear that these ranks were not developed through rigorous training, but given as a sign of respect.

Unfortunately it can still be abused, just like any system.

 

[Tames D]

This kind of builds on bushidomartialarts thread about rank, and kind of doesn't. If you were contacted by someone who offered you a rank in his/her style because of your contributions to the arts in general, would you take a rank....say 5th dan from a 9th Dan, without a test, without knowing the system, and knowing that you will be now out ranking people who worked many more years to get to their 3rd, 4th and 5th dans? Doesn't this action violate some of the core tenets of the martial arts in general? What would you do, and what if anything would you say or do if this was your organization or school?

I'll post my answer later; I don't want to limit the discussion by posting my answer now.

I don't think I could look anyone in the eyes if I did that. How do you face the people you suddenly outrank?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Cuong Nhu has two honery Masters. One of them (Master Cates) helped O'Sensei refine and develop Cuong Nhu. There is even material from his art (Neko Ryu Goshin Jitsu, which he founded) included in Cuong Nhu. On a side note, his wife is a late 6th Dan in Cuong Nhu, and was one of O'Sensei's first students.
The other (Master Buckland) is a body guard, and also helped in later development of Cuong Nhu (mostly weapon defense). Also, when O'Sensei was dieing of Alztiemers, Master Buckland helped nurse him.

Neither of them have a defined rank, but are to be treated as masters in Cuong Nhu. In Situations like these, were the inidivual helped refine the system, I think it is acpetable. Too much else is a little percular.

 

[elder999]

. If you were contacted by someone who offered you a rank in his/her style because of your contributions to the arts in general, would you take a rank....say 5th dan from a 9th Dan, without a test, without knowing the system, and knowing that you will be now out ranking people who worked many more years to get to their 3rd, 4th and 5th dans? Doesn't this action violate some of the core tenets of the martial arts in general? What would you do, and what if anything would you say or do if this was your organization or school?

I'll post my answer later; I don't want to limit the discussion by posting my answer now.

Well, in the circumstances outlined it doesn't sound at all like an honorary rank, but a functional one, so the answer is no. If it were designated as an honorary rank and I had some sort of relationship with the system or its heirarchy, I might accept it.

Yes, the action you've described is some sort of violation, in my opinion.

I don't know what I'd do if it was my organization or school-it's never come up, as far as I know.

 

[mjd]

This stuff happens more frequent than one might think, I would say if you don't do the work and time to earn the rank than it's not worth much.

 

[Dave Leverich]

I couldn't see taking any rank no. I could see testing in to another organization of the same artform, assuming I passed the same tests that anyone else testing for that rank would pass, and had the time requirements met.

Even so, when you hear of someone who's 5th in X form, 3rd in X, 4th in X etc, then you stop and realize that it wasn't starting from 'start' with each... But then, they are an accomplished martial artist when they start the next art (although many are different orgs of the same art).

 

[jks9199]

Would I accept rank from someone outside my system? Not if it was supposed to be "real" rank. Would I accept some sort of honorary rank/status? Maybe, so long as it was clearly honorary and not a substitute for real rank. (See below) Would I accept starting in another system at a higher rank than white? It would depend on the reasoning from the instructor.

Rank only has meaning within the context of the organization or association or individuals giving it. Accepting rank from someone outside those channels makes the rank meaningless. (Hall of Fames where you nominate yourself and get listed if you pay the fee are meaningless, too. A meaningful Hall of Fame would have clear criteria for selecting it's members, probably without the prospective members input; think about the Baseball Hall of Fame or Football Hall of Fame. There are rules for how they select members, and none of them involve "did the check clear?")

My association does recognize a few talented and respected individuals as honorary members; they aren't black belts within our system -- but we respect and honor their training and work.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Rank only has meaning within the context of the organization or association or individuals giving it. Accepting rank from someone outside those channels makes the rank meaningless. (Hall of Fames where you nominate yourself and get listed if you pay the fee are meaningless, too. A meaningful Hall of Fame would have clear criteria for selecting it's members, probably without the prospective members input; think about the Baseball Hall of Fame or Football Hall of Fame. There are rules for how they select members, and none of them involve "did the check clear?")

We all keep saying this, rank has no value outside it organisational context, but constantly we see people listing high ranks in many organisations. There is meaning outside context. It is not a pleasant meaning but it is still there. High rank in multiple organisations means more students (usually kinda gullible, but students just the same) and that means more money.

The vast majority of us here don't seem to do this and would not accept rank they we did not earn, unless perhaps it was clearly honourary, but that does not detract from the fact that the is a monetary value attached to rank. Saddly, what's more, it works.

 

[tellner]

It depends on who the person is, why he or she is offering the certificate, what if anything is expected in return and how it will make people feel.

If it would make the person feel better to give me a piece of paper or if he or she would feel hurt if I refused I'd take it in the spirit in which it was intended. It wouldn't mean diddly as a martial arts rank. I wouldn't use it for advertising. But I'd appreciate the thought that came with it. People get honorary degrees from real universities all the time. They don't use them to try and get tenure anywhere. They're like large-size attaboys.

Suppose it were a Grand Old Master. He publicly presents me (Lord alone knows why) this beautiful piece of paper at the end of a gathering or important training camp for his style. Refusing it would cause him discomfort and offense. So I'd smile, thank him, and bow politely.

If it were meant to instill a sense of obligation or make other people think I was beholden the person who signed the certificate, then no. It's the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. Some years back my teacher was given an (unsolicited) rank certificate by another teacher in the same system. It really didn't mean anything to him. One day out of the blue the guy wrote to him asking for a set of photographs and fingerprints(?!) to register him as an instructor officially under the other guy. My teacher looked at the piece of paper and said "Well, he sent me one. Maybe I should send him one, too. <pause> Nah. I need to have some kind of quality control." He deep-sixed the certificate.

Another thing is how close this system is to what I do and how much of the important curriculum I've got. A lot of martial arts have an awful lot of stuff that is completely redundant or utterly useless in making a person a better fighter according to the standards by which the style judges its practitioners. "He moves like one of us. He fights like one of us and at a high level. He knows the important core of the system and understands its principles and laws. I'd feel comfortable sending my students to him."

Imagine someone is from a closely related school. Some of the peripheral stuff is a little different. They have 27 variations of the Plummeting Butterfly instead of 31. Their Sideways Crab is done without the optional ring finger flourish at the end. And they don't teach Purple Dragon Sings "I Love You. You Love Me." Would that make them far enough from you guys that ranking them in your system would be a travesty?How high is up? How far is far? At what point do you care?

It's pretty obvious that the correct answer from the original post was "No. No. A thousand times no. It would be a travesty and a betrayal." The reality is that it's not necessarily that simple. Much depends on exactly what is being offered by whom, to whom, for what reason and by what standards.

 

[LawDog]

Tellner,
Great response, you and I are on the same page here.
Kacey,
An excellant thread with many good responses.
Not to long age a few mid level black belts left my Kenpo organization, they said that they wanted to be on their own. I wished them well and we then parted on a friendly basis. A very short time later I was informed that all from this group had received double promotions before they dropped out of my group. The organization that had promoted them is a non Kenpo organization. After a little research I discovered that this same non Kenpo group has promoted many to a senior ranked level.

 

[MJS]

This kind of builds on bushidomartialarts thread about rank, and kind of doesn't. If you were contacted by someone who offered you a rank in his/her style because of your contributions to the arts in general, would you take a rank....say 5th dan from a 9th Dan, without a test, without knowing the system, and knowing that you will be now out ranking people who worked many more years to get to their 3rd, 4th and 5th dans? Doesn't this action violate some of the core tenets of the martial arts in general? What would you do, and what if anything would you say or do if this was your organization or school?

I'll post my answer later; I don't want to limit the discussion by posting my answer now.

No, I would not accept rank in a style I knew nothing about. Imagine the look on someones face, if you walked into a school, wearing a 5th degree rank and someone asked you a question on something, only for you to turn around and say that you can't help them! Personally, I'd be embarrassed to be affiliated with a school or organization that did this.

Some people are under this idea that wearing a high rank is going to make people respect them, give them some sort of power, etc. but the reality is, it doesn't, at least from my point of view. Wearing high rank also comes with the task of being able to actually do the material, know the material inside and out and perhaps know a little history, to name a few things. Like I always say, I'm more interested in what I can learn from the person, rather than the belt and how many stripes are on it. 1st dan, 2nd dan or 8th dan...the belt isn't going to teach me, they are.

Mike

 

[IcemanSK]

I have been offered rank in such a situation. I got to know the "#2 man" in a system & he asked me to help teach his students kicking techniques (as his style didn't major on them). In talking with him one night, I mentioned that I wanted to get my 3rd Dan in TKD. He offered a 3rd Dan in his system to me right then. I was flattered, but declined. I then began to earnestly seek out a Taekwondo instructor to continue my TKD studies & rank. This instructor understood & we are still great friends.

I didn't know much about his art & I couldn't take a rank I didn't earn.

 

[Flying Crane]

I was offered a rank advancement by someone in a similar, but not the same kenpo system as my own. I had never studied under him. I believe the offer was made under good intentions, as a recognition of the years of training I have put in (I was not training under a kenpo instructor at the time), and perhaps to boost my status if I decided to begin teaching. I appreciated the offer, but declined. I just didn't feel right about accepting rank if I had not actually studied under someone, in their system. I am now training under a kenpo teacher in my original system, and any further ranking I receive will be thru him, when/if it becomes appropriate.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have known some that have accepted rank from organizations they never trained in but they usualy then joined that organization.
I have know some that have taken this type of rank and still had no knowledge of the martial arts.
Then there are those who have build their whole organization by giveing away rank if the person will wear their patch
For myslef if I do not study an art and have not tested for the rank I want nothing to do with it and will not accept.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

If you join an organization and after a period of time are offered rank thats different but if someone searches for you and offers it thats a whole other ball game and I would say that is not cool.