About belts and time to obtain a BB

[Manny]

My way of thinking is that if I would have a dojang I would belt sistem I will use for my students would be: white, yellow,green,blue and red, the minimum time to obtain the next belt will be one full year, this means to obtain a Black Belt the student must have a minimum of 5 years as a colored belt.

Wolud a child below 18 years achieve black belt status?? Yes but not a black belt to wear on his/her waist, I will use the poom blet (red/black).

I think I will not acept children below 10 years.

Manny

 

[andyjeffries]

I think I will not acept children below 10 years.

That's a personal choice, but I feel differently. I teach children from 6+ regular Taekwondo classes and children from 3+ a modified/watered down "Kicking Kids" type class (I don't give Taekwondo kup rank here, just Kicking Kids stripes).

I don't expect the same from a 6 year old as I get from a 12 year old (and likewise further down the age scale). However, I wouldn't not teach them and deny them the benefits that martial arts practice gives. For example, I have young children students that apparently won't sit still longer than a few seconds at home, but they'll happily wait a minute while I explain how to do something.

When I was younger/lower ranked I didn't want to teach children as young as I do now. However, my feelings changed from "they can't properly execute the techniques an older-child/adult can so they shouldn't practice yet" to "they can still get some benefit, which is great, if I just give them a break because of their age".

Of course if you don't want to teach young children because you just don't like dealing with the rowdiness/youthfulness of them - that's completely your call. I didn't know if it was because it was a moral "children below 10 shouldn't learn martial arts' thing.

 

[Dirty Dog]

A year from white to yellow? Seriously, Manny?

Techniques become more complicated and expections become (rightly) higher as rank progresses. As such, I think a year between high-geup ranks is reasonable. But white to yellow... seems excessive.

 

[Gentle Fist]

$500 between each rank %-}

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

A year from white to yellow? Seriously, Manny?

Techniques become more complicated and expections become (rightly) higher as rank progresses. As such, I think a year between high-geup ranks is reasonable. But white to yellow... seems excessive.

I suppose it all depends on what you think a yellow belt is / should be. The issue I would foresee is that people would quit after half a year of not progressing on paper.

 

[Haakon]

If someone expected me to do Chon Ji or Taeguk Il Jang for a year I'd quit and find somewhere else to train too. TKD patterns, especially the early ones, and other white belt curriculum simply don't take that kind of time to learn and learn well. A year between red and 1st dan I could see but not the lower ranks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I suppose it all depends on what you think a yellow belt is / should be. The issue I would foresee is that people would quit after half a year of not progressing on paper.

Since Manny is talking about TKD, and since he teaches KKW TKD, the definition of yellow belt is pretty clearly defined.

My point, which apparently wasn't clear enough, was that belt advancement is not equal. The step from 9th geup to 8th is not as difficult to attain as 1st geup to 1st Dan. That is entirely reasonable, since the (clearly defined) forms/skills/techniques needed to earn 8th geup are both fewer and simpler than those needed to earn 1st Dan.

 

[Markku P]

My way of thinking is that if I would have a dojang I would belt sistem I will use for my students would be: white, yellow,green,blue and red, the minimum time to obtain the next belt will be one full year, this means to obtain a Black Belt the student must have a minimum of 5 years as a colored belt.

Wolud a child below 18 years achieve black belt status?? Yes but not a black belt to wear on his/her waist, I will use the poom blet (red/black).

I think I will not acept children below 10 years.

Manny

I think you wouldn't have many students if you follow that system. In my experience time frame between belts should be 2-6 months and if you are active then you can get your black belt in 3-4 years. It doesn't matter if you are child or adult, Kukkiwon has "poom-grades" so course I use those guidelines. I personally think we are too much value for the 1st dan.

Perhaps we should focus more to get students who will be 4-5 Dan black belts in the future.

/Markku

 

[Markku P]

That's a personal choice, but I feel differently. I teach children from 6+ regular Taekwondo classes and children from 3+ a modified/watered down "Kicking Kids" type class (I don't give Taekwondo kup rank here, just Kicking Kids stripes).

I don't expect the same from a 6 year old as I get from a 12 year old (and likewise further down the age scale). However, I wouldn't not teach them and deny them the benefits that martial arts practice gives. For example, I have young children students that apparently won't sit still longer than a few seconds at home, but they'll happily wait a minute while I explain how to do something.

When I was younger/lower ranked I didn't want to teach children as young as I do now. However, my feelings changed from "they can't properly execute the techniques an older-child/adult can so they shouldn't practice yet" to "they can still get some benefit, which is great, if I just give them a break because of their age".

Of course if you don't want to teach young children because you just don't like dealing with the rowdiness/youthfulness of them - that's completely your call. I didn't know if it was because it was a moral "children below 10 shouldn't learn martial arts' thing.

I pretty much agree with this and I think you should teach children, specially 4-6 years, then you will lean use virtues like patience, humor and common sense
With kids you can't fake it because they will see it quite fast..

/Markku P.

 

[Gorilla]

My daughter took 18 months to reach BB. She trained during that period 3 to 4 hors per day 6 days per week. She got her Black Belt @ 13. She made the AAU JR National Team within 3 years of training. She is currently on that Team as a Sr Fly weight. She has made that team 3 of the last 4 years.She has been training for 7 years now and is a Second Dan. She is Testing for Third Dan in October. She teaches classes and does private lessons.She also acheivedA BB IN Skotokan Karate during that period.Manny under your system you would of held her back. We have been lucky that we have been able to train with masters who have recognized her ability and helped her progress at an appropriate rate.What if someone like ATC's kids our Terry's kids walked in your Dojang.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I suppose it all depends on what you think a yellow belt is / should be. The issue I would foresee is that people would quit after half a year of not progressing on paper.

People go at least a year in BJJ without progressing on paper and yet that art continues to grow. I personally havent found people to care too much about time in grade, in fact I find most people are more concerned by lesser times in grade as seeming a bit "dodgy". I personally think 5 years is about right for a black belt if I were running a school,but Id be more inclined to have 10 coloured belts grading every 6 months for 5 years in total to 1st dan. I wouldnt take kids under 10 years old either, despite the fact my son is a 7 year old 3rd gup and my 10 year old daughter is a first gup, but I dont make the rules where I train .

 

[terryl965]

All I can say is it is up to each person to run there school the way they feel it should,(except for KKW TKD) most can learn the cuuriculum within two - three years for BB. Some faster some slower, also it is about your growth from 1st Dan (poom) we lose so many because un qualified instructor at the master level and above, they feel they do not need to improve just get stripes. Manny do as you see fit but if those guidelines of yours is real it is going to be a slow and small school for you.

 

[Gorilla]

All I can say is it is up to each person to run there school the way they feel it should,(except for KKW TKD) most can learn the cuuriculum within two - three years for BB. Some faster some slower, also it is about your growth from 1st Dan (poom) we lose so many because un qualified instructor at the master level and above, they feel they do not need to improve just get stripes. Manny do as you see fit but if those guidelines of yours is real it is going to be a slow and small school for you.

I agree with you...but each instructor must be flexible in order to insure that the dedicated talented student is challenged!!!

Too many blanket statements are made about rank that would seem to lack flexibility when needed!

Rank should be earned and some are able to do it faster and at a younger age!

 

[chrispillertkd]

All I can say is it is up to each person to run there school the way they feel it should,(except for KKW TKD) most can learn the cuuriculum within two - three years for BB. Some faster some slower, also it is about your growth from 1st Dan (poom) we lose so many because un qualified instructor at the master level and above, they feel they do not need to improve just get stripes. Manny do as you see fit but if those guidelines of yours is real it is going to be a slow and small school for you.

Terry, I don't think I'm following you here very well. Are you saying 1) "It is up to each person to run their school the way they feel it should be, except for KKW TKD"? or are you saying 2) "except for KKW TKD most [peope] can learn the curriculum within two or three years"?

If it is #1 above, why would it be any different for KKW folks? There has been numerous posts here saying the KKW doesn't enforce any sort of standard (although it apparently has one), nor is there any way for it to do so.

If it is #2 above what is the time frame you see for people to learn the KKW curriculum (up to 1st dan)? Are you going with the one year time frame from Korea?

Pax,

Chris

 

[bluewaveschool]

I held a kid at white belt recently for 6 months. He was barely ready at that point. He's also been booted to the side line before, I've had the entire class except for him do push ups for him acting up. It's never big outbursts, it's the can't stay still in ready stance syndrome, and the 'excuse for every time i correct him' syndrome. He's been better recently. I could kick him out, but he needs the discipline. Generally it's 3-4 months, but some of my students are taking longer here recently because they aren't training out of class like they should. I tell them that if they only train in the 2 hours a week I have them, they'll move very slow. It's as much up to the student how fast they'll move up as it is to me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I held a kid at white belt recently for 6 months. He was barely ready at that point. He's also been booted to the side line before, I've had the entire class except for him do push ups for him acting up. It's never big outbursts, it's the can't stay still in ready stance syndrome, and the 'excuse for every time i correct him' syndrome. He's been better recently. I could kick him out, but he needs the discipline. Generally it's 3-4 months, but some of my students are taking longer here recently because they aren't training out of class like they should. I tell them that if they only train in the 2 hours a week I have them, they'll move very slow. It's as much up to the student how fast they'll move up as it is to me.

We call that "WalMart Taekwondo" and encourage them to save their receipt because it probably won't work...

 

[ralphmcpherson]

All I can say is it is up to each person to run there school the way they feel it should,(except for KKW TKD) most can learn the cuuriculum within two - three years for BB. Some faster some slower, also it is about your growth from 1st Dan (poom) we lose so many because un qualified instructor at the master level and above, they feel they do not need to improve just get stripes. Manny do as you see fit but if those guidelines of yours is real it is going to be a slow and small school for you.

Ive never understood the theory that if it takes longer to get to black belt the school will be smaller or less successful. Maybe its different over here, but I know many karate and tkd schools with long times in grade who are a raging success. I see no reason why Manny couldnt run a school with his guidelines and have many, many students. Maybe its just a regional thing.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Since Manny is talking about TKD, and since he teaches KKW TKD, the definition of yellow belt is pretty clearly defined.

Is it? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have never seen a "standard" colour belt system with requirements from the KKW. In my case, my first school required taegeuks 1 & 2 to obtain a yellow belt, whilst the next school required a "basic" pattern (taegeuk1 is taught at the yellow belt level).

 

[bluewaveschool]

We call that "WalMart Taekwondo" and encourage them to save their receipt because it probably won't work...

If they paid, that might be a concern. But since it's free, whatever. I'll let them take however long it takes. They'll either shape up one day, or quit.

 

[Metal]

Is it? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have never seen a "standard" colour belt system with requirements from the KKW. In my case, my first school required taegeuks 1 & 2 to obtain a yellow belt, whilst the next school required a "basic" pattern (taegeuk1 is taught at the yellow belt level).

Exactly. For Kukkiwon it's important that you meet their standards once you attending your first black belt test.

In the official WTF-affiliated organisation in Germany, Switzerland and Austria things are handled the following ways:

Germany: 10 Kups, 10th white, 8th yellow, 6th green, 4th blue, 2nd red (or brown) and belts with stripes for the uneven Kup numbers.

Austria: 10 Kups as well, but their 10th Kup is Yellow and their white belt is an additional Beginner level which is not part of their Kup-system.

The Swiss system is more similar to what some Korean Grandmasters are using. 8 Kups and 3 belt colors, Yellow for 8th and 7th, Blue for 6th to 3rd and Red for 2nd and 1st Kup.

Oh, France actually has additonal children Kup-ranks, so it's 15 Kups for children and 10 Kups for adults.



Getting further and obtaining a new belt can be very motivating for kids.

Between testings their shouldn't just be a wait time though, but also a minimum of training units. In Germany it's handed like this:

10th to 9th kup 3 months / 48 training units (45 min. each)
9th to 8th kup 3 months / 48 tu
8th to 7th kup 3 months / 48 tu
7th to 6th kup 3 months / 48 tu
6th to 5th kup 3 months / 48 tu
5th to 4th kup 4 months / 64 tu
4th to 3rd kup 4 months / 64 tu
3rd to 2nd kup 4 months / 64 tu
2nd to 1st kup 6 months / 96 tu
1st kup to 1st dan 1 year