About belts and time to obtain a BB

[tigycho]

What's wrong to be a "sport"? I feel it's pretty useless to draw a line that some martial arts are more as a sport and some more like "art", If we look a definition of sport then perhaps every martial arts style goes with that definition?

/Markku P.

Nothing is wrong with sport. You've misunderstood me, I think. I was simply expressing a sentiment similar to RalphMcPherson, in that I have heard people deride TKD as 'just a sport, not a martial art', and I have watched TKDers (including myself) deny the allegations.

But if it is possible to know NOTHING about TKD other than how to win at sparring, and earn a black belt, then, at least in those cases, the people saying TKD is just a sport are correct, and I have to concede the point.

Which doens't mean I have to start practicing TKD that way, or concede that sport is all TKD can ever be, since it can be demonstrably more, and is for most of us.

Some TKDins practice TKD as a sport only, as mentioned above, some practice only as a self defense art, some only for spiritual gain or physical fitness. Most blend those aspects to greater or lesser degree, emphasizing what they value, and de-emphasizing other components.

 

[tigycho]

I'd say that any art that includes free sparring has to be considered as having at least some degree of sport-orientation.

This would also depend on the sort of free sparring. Certainly, if it is WTF style sparring, it is a likely sporting endeavor.

However, if the free sparring is 'aliveness' training, geared toward training out the flinch response, handling adrenal dump, and a near full array of technique geared toward ending a fight, rather than scoring points, it could easily be considered completely martial in character.

 

[leadleg]

The KKW will give reduction of time in grade for certain reasons,one medalling in worlds or the olympics, you still would need to test. As for someone earning a black belt for sparring only, never learning forms, I have not seen that. Terry says he knows of a school that only does sparring and teaches no other TKD at all? I have not seen that either. I have seen TKD schools who specialise in sparring but teach other aspect as well. I suppose if you want to cheat the system or you have little integrity you can promote without sound reasoning.

 

[Archtkd]

Some TKDins practice TKD as a sport only, as mentioned above, some practice only as a self defense art, some only for spiritual gain or physical fitness. Most blend those aspects to greater or lesser degree, emphasizing what they value, and de-emphasizing other components.

That, I think sums it up.

 

[Flying Crane]

Manny: do not be afraid to enforce your standards for your students. Keep the standards high, demand quality from your students. Do not worry if your timeline takes longer than others.

 

[terryl965]

The KKW will give reduction of time in grade for certain reasons,one medalling in worlds or the olympics, you still would need to test. As for someone earning a black belt for sparring only, never learning forms, I have not seen that. Terry says he knows of a school that only does sparring and teaches no other TKD at all? I have not seen that either. I have seen TKD schools who specialise in sparring but teach other aspect as well. I suppose if you want to cheat the system or you have little integrity you can promote without sound reasoning.

Look sorry if I ruffled a few feathers but we all know sport TKD school only if we are doing competition. We also know the one's like mine that blends it all together, that also has a competition team with there own practice time. The KKW can never ever be sure all Balck Belts are to any standereds just like any other org or style out there. All they can do is hope that instructor keep the quality and intrigrity in TKD and that is all any of us can do.

As far as people getting promoted without knowing anything look at the USAT and what they tried to do with all those people skip Dan and testing for ranks they did not even know the poomsae for. It was a total miss up by all parties involved and hopefully people learned some are here for a rank only and not the material.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My way of thinking is that if I would have a dojang I would belt sistem I will use for my students would be: white, yellow,green,blue and red, the minimum time to obtain the next belt will be one full year, this means to obtain a Black Belt the student must have a minimum of 5 years as a colored belt.

As a school owner, you may do as you wish, and certainly I wouldn't fault you for it. But make sure that your reasons for extending the time to more than twice the average are for the benefit of your students and not for some kind of time in grade bragging rights.

Also, don't compare taekwondo time in grade to BJJ time in grade as others here have. Taekwondo and Brazilian jiujitsu are different arts with no real commonality aside from both having a competitive element and both having belts.

In Korea, it takes a year. Most schools that I have visited average two to three years. And in KKW taekwondo, first dan is still considered a beginning grade. Someone earlier said something along the lines of, 'I can see it for higher ranks, going from red to black...' Well, red belt isn't a high rank at all.

I don't personally care how long someone takes to get from white to black. That is between them and their instructor. The quality of their practice will show in what they do.

a child below 18 years achieve black belt status?? Yes but not a black belt to wear on his/her waist, I will use the poom blet (red/black).

Why eighteen? The KKW standard for a dan grade is fifteen. If the org has issued a dan grade, why would you issue a pum belt??

I think I will not acept children below 10 years.

A lot of schools have age minimums. You need to determine what is right for you in this regard.

To those who have asked about getting a black belt without self defense, how are you defining self defense? Learning to avoid blows and to block and strike with various parts of the body qualifies as self defense. It may not be the most thorough SD curriculum, but it is 'self defense' in the general sense. Does BJJ have 'self defense' beyond grappling? I don't practice it, so I don't know first hand, but so far as I know, BJJ is about as SD oriented as taekwondo, one having few grapples and the other having no strikes whatsoever. Haedong gumdo also has no practical SD element. Should those arts not issue a black belt?

Just to clarify, a black belt in KKW taekwondo signifies that the student has proficiency in the geub level material taught in a particular school, with the material in the KKW textbook serving as either the entire curriculum or as the foundation of the school's curriculum. Thus not all schools will be identical in this regard, but should share the same foundational skills.

 

[Gorilla]

Pretty much sums it up Daniel.... From my perspective a five year time frame to reach BB might be the right thing for some... others it may actually be lowering the bar...do what is right for the student....set the standard for achievement not a specific time frame...after 1st Dan follow the KKW minimum time frame standards if you are a KKW school...

As a school owner, you may do as you wish, and certainly I wouldn't fault you for it. But make sure that your reasons for extending the time to more than twice the average are for the benefit of your students and not for some kind of time in grade bragging rights.

Also, don't compare taekwondo time in grade to BJJ time in grade as others here have. Taekwondo and Brazilian jiujitsu are different arts with no real commonality aside from both having a competitive element and both having belts.

In Korea, it takes a year. Most schools that I have visited average two to three years. And in KKW taekwondo, first dan is still considered a beginning grade. Someone earlier said something along the lines of, 'I can see it for higher ranks, going from red to black...' Well, red belt isn't a high rank at all.

I don't personally care how long someone takes to get from white to black. That is between them and their instructor. The quality of their practice will show in what they do.


Why eighteen? The KKW standard for a dan grade is fifteen. If the org has issued a dan grade, why would you issue a pum belt??


A lot of schools have age minimums. You need to determine what is right for you in this regard.

To those who have asked about getting a black belt without self defense, how are you defining self defense? Learning to avoid blows and to block and strike with various parts of the body qualifies as self defense. It may not be the most thorough SD curriculum, but it is 'self defense' in the general sense. Does BJJ have 'self defense' beyond grappling? I don't practice it, so I don't know first hand, but so far as I know, BJJ is about as SD oriented as taekwondo, one having few grapples and the other having no strikes whatsoever. Haedong gumdo also has no practical SD element. Should those arts not issue a black belt?

Just to clarify, a black belt in KKW taekwondo signifies that the student has proficiency in the geub level material taught in a particular school, with the material in the KKW textbook serving as either the entire curriculum or as the foundation of the school's curriculum. Thus not all schools will be identical in this regard, but should share the same foundational skills.

 

[Markku P]

Pretty much sums it up Daniel.... From my perspective a five year time frame to reach BB might be the right thing for some... others it may actually be lowering the bar...do what is right for the student....set the standard for achievement not a specific time frame...after 1st Dan follow the KKW minimum time frame standards if you are a KKW school...

I agree, I don't really care time limits before the 1st Dan. ( Everyone learns different speed ) Then I just follow Kukkiwon's time frames for other Dan grades.

/Markku P.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think the point others were trying to make was in regards to students getting a black belt WITHOUT knowing all the guep requirements. Providing they know the material, time in grade is probably irrelevent. But someone who only spars and gets a black belt goes against this concept, which is what people have issues with. If the kkw curriculum contains sparring, self defence (one steps), timber breaking and form then it doesnt seem right to get a black belt if the only thing a student does is spar.

 

[terryl965]

I think the point others were trying to make was in regards to students getting a black belt WITHOUT knowing all the guep requirements. Providing they know the material, time in grade is probably irrelevent. But someone who only spars and gets a black belt goes against this concept, which is what people have issues with. If the kkw curriculum contains sparring, self defence (one steps), timber breaking and form then it doesnt seem right to get a black belt if the only thing a student does is spar.

Ralph no-one is saying it is right but it does happen probaly more than alot of people know. Now me I really don't care how you got your Black Belt because it does not represent me, my students or my school. I can control what happens at my school and nothing else and if more people would just take that approach we would have a better understanding what we as instructors should be doing. Just my two cents which in the economy is onlyworth.00000001 % of the face value.

 

[msmitht]

I had to think about this one for a while. Would it really take you that long to get an adult/teen to bb? I agree with the belt system but not the time. If an adult trains 2-3 times per week you should be able to get them there in 3 years depending on your curriculum. I am talking about kukki tkd with nothing else added in. No hkd, bjj, weapons training Or bs. Could you do it in 3 like that?

 

[msmitht]

I think the point others were trying to make was in regards to students getting a black belt WITHOUT knowing all the guep requirements. Providing they know the material, time in grade is probably irrelevent. But someone who only spars and gets a black belt goes against this concept, which is what people have issues with. If the kkw curriculum contains sparring, self defence (one steps), timber breaking and form then it doesnt seem right to get a black belt if the only thing a student does is spar.

I have been to kukkiwon for an exam and no one did one step sparring. Just poomsae, sparring and breaking.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I have been to kukkiwon for an exam and no one did one step sparring. Just poomsae, sparring and breaking.

I tested at Kukkiwon last year and did basic movements (kick combinations, etc), poomse (one random from Taeguek 1-8 + 1 from Koryo/Keumgang/Taebaek, etc depending on your rank), and one round of sparring for probably 90 seconds. We didn't do any breaking.

 

[msmitht]

I tested at Kukkiwon last year and did basic movements (kick combinations, etc), poomse (one random from Taeguek 1-8 + 1 from Koryo/Keumgang/Taebaek, etc depending on your rank), and one round of sparring for probably 90 seconds. We didn't do any breaking.

I was told that we would do basic combos but we never did.

 

[Markku P]

This was my latest Taekwondo blog..


How long should you train to become a black belt in Taekwondo?


This is one subject that many teachers argue. Some think that you should for train 10 years for you to be ready but some feel that you can do it in a much shorter amount of time. I feel that everything depends on the student. It really matters on how much the person has trained. More importantly, it is how much the person has learned and if he/she good enough according to teacher's standards.

I remember when one teacher had an argument with me about how long students should train until they are ready for their black belt test. His felt that student should train for a minimum of 5-6 years and perhaps then they may be ready. I felt that the amount of time could be shorter. Then he said something which I have never forgotten: "We should do like they do in Korea; very hard tests and it will take a long time to get a black belt".

Now, this is a common belief, but the reality is that in Korea (in general) it is easier to get a black belt. In many cases you can become a black belt in one year and I think the average time is about 2 years. Perhaps in Korea they know something that we don't?

In our county we think too highly about black belts. But the reality is that when you get your black belt (1st Dan) you have learned all the basics and this is when the real training will start. In my schools we don't have a minimum time for getting a black belt (we follow what World Taekwondo Headquarters Kukkiwon demands).

No one has ever got a black belt in my schools in one year. The average time has been 3 to 4 years. I try to push for 3 years but so far I haven't been successful with it. I think students should go up with the belts as fast they feel comfortable otherwise we wouldn’t use belt system anyway? I think the belt system is more like a "motivational tool" and we should use it for this purpose.

What should I know in order to achieve a black belt? I think this is easy to answer. The minimum is what Kukkiwon ask and then each teacher should decide themselves if they feel they have to add more material. One argument is of course, what about "mental or spiritual" growth? My answer is very simple; we are not professional in that area, we are not a priest’s or psychologists so we shouldn't concentrate too much in that area.


Yours,

Markku Parviainen

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think the point others were trying to make was in regards to students getting a black belt WITHOUT knowing all the guep requirements. Providing they know the material, time in grade is probably irrelevent.

With regards to geub ranks, I agree. Though if the time in grade is exceptionally short, a school owner might have some explaining to do.

When the time in grade is exceptionally long, as in the scenario presented by Manny, nobody will ask you to explain it and by black belt, students will certainly be ready and then some.

But someone who only spars and gets a black belt goes against this concept, which is what people have issues with. If the kkw curriculum contains sparring, self defence (one steps), timber breaking and form then it doesnt seem right to get a black belt if the only thing a student does is spar.

The textbook itself lists forms and sparring in detail. The only place where kyuk pah (timber breaking) is mentioned that I recall was in the section about setting up demonstrations. One steps are not laid out either, though there are some shown in various descriptions of the forms. But there is no list of official KKW one steps.

I would personally find ildan with no pumse to be odd.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Pretty much sums it up Daniel.... From my perspective a five year time frame to reach BB might be the right thing for some... others it may actually be lowering the bar...do what is right for the student....set the standard for achievement not a specific time frame...after 1st Dan follow the KKW minimum time frame standards if you are a KKW school...

Personally, I don't have a problem with five years to BB. It really is a personal choice of the school owner. Also, if additional material is taught, such as grappling techniques and/or weapons, or perhaps additional forms, then the time between tests should be enough for the students to comfortably learn the material.

I have noticed that some people, both here and elsewhere, hold up lengthy time in grade requirements for first dan as a kind of litmus test for the legitimacy of a school, sometimes pointing to times below three years as some kind of McDojo indicator. If a four year plus time in grade is what one wants to do, it is perfectly fine, but one should be careful not to impose that methodology onto others who feel differently.

Everyone has a different idea of what a black belt is supposed to represent, so in Manny's case, he needs to look at what he feels that it represents, and if or when he opens a school, that is the standard that he needs to shoot for. Everyone has an opinion, and in most cases, they are opinions worth looking at. But ultimately, Manny is the person that Manny has to answer to.

As the Bard says, to thine own self be true.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think if the average guy on the street is looking for a tkd club to start training at and finds two clubs side by both teaching tkd and one takes five years to black belt and one takes two years, then he is probably inclined to think the five year school is more "legit". He may well be wrong in jumping to that conclusion, but the assumption would be understandable. As I said earlier, when I was phoning around looking for a tkd club any club that said I could get a black belt in two years was scratched off the list. As a newbie to MA, I just assumed that if all clubs are teaching "tkd" and one could do it that much quicker, then something dodgey is going on.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think if the average guy on the street is looking for a tkd club to start training at and finds two clubs side by both teaching tkd and one takes five years to black belt and one takes two years, then he is probably inclined to think the five year school is more "legit". He may well be wrong in jumping to that conclusion, but the assumption would be understandable.

Except that the average Joe probably wouldn't be inclined to ask. You are an exception, mainly in the fact that you actually shopped around and did research. For most, the deciding factors are location, schedule, and price.

As I said earlier, when I was phoning around looking for a tkd club any club that said I could get a black belt in two years was scratched off the list. As a newbie to MA, I just assumed that if all clubs are teaching "tkd" and one could do it that much quicker, then something dodgey is going on.

If you don't mind my asking, what was it that made two years the line in the sand? And of the dojangs you contacted, what was the average time to ildan with no prior experience?