A WW2 Japanese Gunto Restored for Iaido Class

[shima]

Before you get too excited, I didn't keep most of the "original" charm of this blades original style. I think the original was either a Type 94 or 98 army officer's blade from WW2. What I know about the blade is that it was brought back from Japan after WW2 by my co-workers grandfather. I also know that it wasn't stored in the best manner since by the time I got it, it was pretty beat up. But hey, it's a free sword from WW2, who am I to complain

So I brought it into the dojo and my instructor suggested I send it to Fred Lohman for some restoration work. After several emails back and forth and figuring out what I wanted to do with the blade, I sent it off to him. 2 weeks later it was back with a new saya and handle! I kept the original menuki, habaki, and tsuba, but everything else I had re-done. Yes I realize it doesn't look like the original anymore, but that was never my intent I wanted to make it into something "new" that I could enjoy and more importantly, use in Iaido class.

Before:

After:

Before:

After:

Before (yes it was pretty rusty before):

After (the fuchi / kashira were new pieces I requested):

He also did a great job cleaning up the tsuba and blade.
Before:

After:

I have more before and after images in these galleries on my website.
Before & After

If you're looking for sword restoration work, I highly recommend Fred Lohman of http://japanese-swords.com/

 

[Namii]

Oh wow, That is wonderful. He did a great job. I love that ito that its wrapped in. The tsunami ito. So soft. And its Green! I love it. May I ask what are the specs on the sword? blade length, tsuka length, weight etc?

 

[shima]

Thanks! I guess I'll need to measure it at some point... I know the handle is 10" like my old catalog blade I'd been using prior since that part I had measured before sending it off... I know it's a few inches shorter than my catalog blade though, and I know that the catalog blade is 40" long. So it's a little shorter than that. Ironically the WW2 blade is also a little heavier, but I've never weighed it, not sure I've got anything good to weigh it with here at home.

Yes I <3 the tsunami wrap on it, it's sooo comfortable and provides a great grip for using it in class.

 

[Namii]

Yes because sword people like that kinda info.
I have a WW2 Japanese NCO sword and its kinda in rough shape. The blade is no where as "meaty" as yours looks. The edge is pretty much toast since its been rattling around in a metal saya. I hate the handle on it. Its all metal and its pretty short. Like 8 or 9 inches. It is nice and light though. The blade is around 26 inches long. So that sword just gets to sit around and look old. Its doing a good job of it too.
I have the tsunami ito on my Hanwei practical plus katana. I hated the leathery stuff that it came with. And I ordered my ito from Mr. Lohman. I wrapped it myself and I think it turned out ok. It could have been a little tighter, but then it might be loosening since I handle that sword constantly.
Ive heard of people using fish weighing scales to weigh swords. I have a trigger pull gauge for measuring trigger pull on firearms. I used that to weigh a sword or two.

 

[shima]

Yeah this blade is pretty meaty for sure. Since I got it I use it in class now and let the students who don't own blades use my old catalog blade. (I call my other blade a catalog blade since it's a generic $150 blade from AWMA that I got back in 2000... it's so generic they still make the same exact blade today in their catalog! haha) Anyhoo I was laughing last week after class when one of the other black belts complained that my catalog blade was too heavy... I chuckled and told him that just because my WW2 blade was shorter didn't mean it was lighter and then showed him that it was actually heavier than the longer blade.

Anyhoo for size comparison, top blade is the WW2 one, bottom is the 40" catalog blade.

 

[Sukerkin]

The high weight is likely down to the high-density steel used to make it - quite possibly German in origin if it is truly Second World War vintage - combined with a undifferentiated structure (what would be called a mono-steel construction in modern parlance).

My sensei has a blade of similar looking dimensions to the pictures above. His is very light indeed and a genuine late-17th/early-18th century sword. Indeed, no historical blade I have handled has been heavy.

Are you sure of the provenance by the way, shima. I own a couple of supposed 'gunto' that, on closer inspection, appear to have been hammered out of sections of 'Indonesian' railway line :lol:.

By way of background, I used to be a museum curator, so anythig older than last weel tweaks my old professional interest :lol:.

 

[Namii]

I see how much shorter it is than your other catalog sword. I like the bamboo design on the saya.
I like old stuff too as I have several old military firearms.

 

[shima]

I see how much shorter it is than your other catalog sword. I like the bamboo design on the saya.
I like old stuff too as I have several old military firearms.

Yeah I love the bamboo design on the catalog one. I would have gone with a custom saya for the WW2 one, but I was already spending a fair amount on the brand new handle + generic new saya... so I figure at some point in the future I can get a saya with a design on it, until then plain black is probably more practical anyway since I'm using it regularly (every Monday evening) for class currently.

This is probably the oldest thing I have in my house now... I really like having a piece of history in my home

 

[shima]

The high weight is likely down to the high-density steel used to make it - quite possibly German in origin if it is truly Second World War vintage - combined with a undifferentiated structure (what would be called a mono-steel construction in modern parlance).

My sensei has a blade of similar looking dimensions to the pictures above. His is very light indeed and a genuine late-17th/early-18th century sword. Indeed, no historical blade I have handled has been heavy.

Are you sure of the provenance by the way, shima. I own a couple of supposed 'gunto' that, on closer inspection, appear to have been hammered out of sections of 'Indonesian' railway line :lol:.

By way of background, I used to be a museum curator, so anythig older than last weel tweaks my old professional interest :lol:.

The blade was brought back from Japan by my co-workers grandfather. Exactly where in Japan he brought it back from I don't know, but I know he was stationed in Japan. It's not excessively heavy, but it is a bit heavier than my cheap catalog sword. It has a much more "proper" feel when I hold and handle it compared to my cheap catalog sword...but it's clearly not a hand made sword since there's no name inscribed on it, we took it apart and checked for one before I sent it off for restoration work. The only thing written on the inside of the handle of the blade appeared to have been written on with black permamant marker and appeared to be a 4 and a 0 (a Japanese 4 "shi" and "0") Not sure if that was meant to signify it was made in 1940, or if it meant something completely different all together.

 

[Sukerkin]

It is ever fascinating ot me to try and dig into the past of an object; it's part of what got me into the curatorial profession in the first place .

I am not an expert in this particular field tho', so dont take what I say as gospel (and I certainly do not mean to sound critical of your lovely refurbished sword) but I am given to understand that gunto will have a serial number stamped into the blade and there should be a matching one on the 'furniture' of the saya?

Of course, anything that was produced in huge numbers will show a variance here and there, so that doesn't mean it's not 'real' but it might be one that was produced post-war for the market that the occupying American servicemen represented?

In case you're interested in digging further, here are a few links to give a little background and start the research path:

http://www.educativ.info/lib/military-swords.html

http://sbgswordforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=swordreviews&action=display&thread=7383

http://getasword.com/blog/523-japanese-military-gunto-sword/

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/military.htm

http://www.swordsales.eu/copper-hilted-japanese-ncos-shin-gunto-katana.html

http://www.to-ken.com/

http://www.jssus.org/

 

[shima]

Based on discussions with Mr. Lohman, my instructor and referncing online previously, I'm of the opinion that it was most likely a Type 98 sword, since it only had one of the clips on the scabbard, not two like the Type 94's and otherwise looked identical to all Type 94/98 photos I saw.

It was in pretty bad shape when I got it, rust on the blade, the saya's covering had been long gone and the family had typed the saya together in a rather pitiful manner, the wood of the saya was rather beat up and starting to separate, the handle had definitely seen better days and the wood near the tsuba on the handle was starting to split apart on it's own.

This is what it looked like, minus missing covering around the wood of the saya and add in a lot of rust
http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_023.htm

The tsuba looks more like this ones though
http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_025.htm

 

[pgsmith]

This looks like your standard oil quenched gunto, which were 2.3 shaku or right at 27.5 inches in length. Looks like Fred did a good job for you, I've been quite happy with work he's had done for me in the past. When I first started, doing what you just did was the only way to get a practice sword easily, since the Chinese hadn't started producing Japanese style blades yet. I'm not surprised that it feels better than your 'catalog' sword but, from what I remember, standard gunto tended to be quite thick and feel pretty darned heavy in the hand. If you practice a lot, be mindful of repetitive stress syndrome as it's fairly easy to develop tendonitis in the wrists or forearms using a gunto.

Cheers on a nice sword!

 

[shima]

This looks like your standard oil quenched gunto, which were 2.3 shaku or right at 27.5 inches in length. Looks like Fred did a good job for you, I've been quite happy with work he's had done for me in the past. When I first started, doing what you just did was the only way to get a practice sword easily, since the Chinese hadn't started producing Japanese style blades yet. I'm not surprised that it feels better than your 'catalog' sword but, from what I remember, standard gunto tended to be quite thick and feel pretty darned heavy in the hand. If you practice a lot, be mindful of repetitive stress syndrome as it's fairly easy to develop tendonitis in the wrists or forearms using a gunto.

Cheers on a nice sword!

I've been practicing Iaido since 2000... so I'm well familiar with repetitive stress injuries, but I work in network engineering so I'm actually far more concerned with repetitive stress from typing all day (and all night after work at home, haha)...

I'll try and measure it later this week, I have to take it down for Monday night Iaido class tonight anyway... it stays up on top of my entertainment center all week except Monday evenings when it and the other sword go to class with me for some good quality practice time.

I think you may be right though about the 27.5 inch estimate... I took a piece of paper and measure the handle in the photo I have (since I'm at work and not home) and since I know the handle is 10" having measured that for the order with Fred Lohman when he remade my handle... anyhoo I think took this 10" measurement and placed it over the sword photo and it goes 2 2/3s time over the blade, so that 27.5 inch guestimate looks about right!

 

[Chris Parker]

The blade was brought back from Japan by my co-workers grandfather. Exactly where in Japan he brought it back from I don't know, but I know he was stationed in Japan. It's not excessively heavy, but it is a bit heavier than my cheap catalog sword. It has a much more "proper" feel when I hold and handle it compared to my cheap catalog sword...but it's clearly not a hand made sword since there's no name inscribed on it, we took it apart and checked for one before I sent it off for restoration work. The only thing written on the inside of the handle of the blade appeared to have been written on with black permamant marker and appeared to be a 4 and a 0 (a Japanese 4 "shi" and "0") Not sure if that was meant to signify it was made in 1940, or if it meant something completely different all together.

Nice sword. I have a preference for the slightly shorter blades myself (probably the Katori influence!), and it reminds me of one I used to have. Ah, memories....

That said, just a small correction here, the presence (or lack) of a signature isn't an indication of a blade being hand made or not. There are plenty of mumei (unsigned) blades around which are handmade, traditionally forged items. I think you're more than correct in thinking this one isn't a traditionally forged item (I'd be with Paul saying it's an oilcooled mass-produced weapon), but that's not from the lack of a signature.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Name or not is not an ultimate decider.
For example in the art world there are plenty of paintings attibuted to great masters (and fetching the expected price) without having been signed. In such cases, various international experts have deemed the object the be unique enough and identifiable enough that they say it was made by that master.

There are ways to spot how a Japanese blade was made (hand or machine) and whether the metal was folded by hand or not, and how it was constructed.

I am not going to make outright claims since I don't have the blade in my hands and on my stones. However I agree it is most likely a modern mass produced piece. The person doing the restoration should be able to tell you for sure though, if the blade is in actual need of restoration.

 

[pgsmith]

I've been practicing Iaido since 2000... so I'm well familiar with repetitive stress injuries, but I work in network engineering so I'm actually far more concerned with repetitive stress from typing all day (and all night after work at home, haha)...

I hear you. I work on a computer all day and have had more wrist problems from that than anything else., although I did once have to fight through tennis elbow due to improper technique. That is not something that I'd wish on anyone!

What flavor of iaido do you practice?

 

[Namii]

uggh ..tennis elbow (I had it just before Christmas break) especially when using a sword that too heavy for you and very unbalanced. The price you pay when you overtrain with bad technique with an $80 iaito. Yea I learned my lesson.
I also wonder what iaido you practice.
There is MusoShindenRyu here, but too far away, thats why I went with Gumdo. There is a seminar in July that I would like to attend.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I find the whole subject incredibly fascinating, and just cool as hell.
I have wanted since I was a kid to have a sword, learn how to use it, and just dive in to that entire culture and art. of all the things I have done in martial arts, and sportsfighting the one thing that I always come back to is the desire to learn about swords, the strategy of using them, how to use them, how to make them, and to own some incredible piece of history and art in a sword that actually has historical significance..
I don't know if I will ever realize that dream, but reading threads like this one are just inspiring. thanks to all...

 

[shima]

In answer to what style, we've been practicing the shindo munen ryu forms, the omori ryu forms, and the seita gata forms so far, though I know he has a fourth set of forms written out on the wall that we haven't done at my current school.

 

[Aikicomp]

In answer to what style, we've been practicing the shindo munen ryu forms, the omori ryu forms, and the seita gata forms so far, though I know he has a fourth set of forms written out on the wall that we haven't done at my current school.

Very nice!

Those are from the same style I practice. (Muso Shinden Ryu)

Are the SMR kata you practice all from a standing position?

Are the Omori Ryu kata all from kneeling save Koranto?

Are the Seita Gata kata 10 or 12?

The fourth set we have in MSR is kata from Keshi Ryu as well as the Chuden and Okuden levels in Omori Ryu.

Mike