A question about training methods.

[TSDTexan]

Who here, at MT uses a method of training the reverse or the backwards motion of a technique?

For example, in Karate related disciplines, a person who practices a reverse punch assumes a stance, chambers, and quickly throws the punch with a crisp snap and clear termination, often focusing solely on the punch, with little thought on the withdrawing hand other then to get it chambered for the next punch. (And yes, there are some who focus on both sides of the coin, but thats not my focus for this question)

But the opposite (for the purpose of this example for this query) would be to slowly punch to full extension, or simply start at full extended position, and suddenly with full power withdraw the strike back to a ready position with total focus and commitment before repeating.

The reverse-reverse punch if you will.

This can refer to any kind of strike in any striking art.

So MT guys and gals... who among you trains a method (by any name) like this? And what is it called in your art?

As an aside, I see a great many schools who give it no yhought and others that give it considerable thought.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

and suddenly with full power withdraw the strike back to a ready position with total focus and commitment before repeating.

You should never withdraw your punching hand without pulling anything back. Sometime your "pull" can be as important as your "punch".

 

[Buka]

You're right, TSDTexan. I think it's important, too. We don't do it as part of every class, but we do it enough. Both with kicks and punches.
With kicks, I'll sometimes see what we call "posing for a photo" where a student throws a nice round kick or sidekick and just sort of leaves it hanging there as if admiring what a neat kick he just landed (or threw). Of course other students will pick up on it and try to take advantage when sparring and catch the kick, dumping him. (There's nothing a kicker hates more than getting a kick caught and then dumped). With kicks we'll sometimes brace on a wall or pole etc, extend the kick slowly to full extension - then whip it back and regain stance, or whip it back and continue into a combo.

With punches we do it more often. And not just to work the opposing muscle memory, but sometimes just to mix up the training a bit. When I see a student not pulling punches back quickly enough I'll try to correct it, but it's usually more evident in sparring - cue his opponent to key in on his hanging jab, and either catch it (usually with a cross armed stance) or follow it back with a counter. Then keep pointing out that he's got to work on that return motion. But I usually see a slow returning punch on a single punch as opposed to a combination.

We do it on every single punch we throw, especially uppercuts. I hate slow returning uppercuts.

We don't actually have a name for it. Just "not posing" and completing the technique.

 

[Ruhaani]

Nice post

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk

 

[geezer]

Well, IMO that particular kind of "reverse training" wouldn't work well in the arts I train, namely Wing Chun and Eskrima. The problem with applying it to our lineage of Wing Chun is that we do not forcefully withdraw punches and kicks to a chamber position. For example our well-known "chain-punch" snaps out quickly with "springy energy" (yang) and then relaxes, and only after the next punch crosses the bridge (wrist area) of the first do we allow that first punch to softly (yin) flow back into chamber.This is done to prevent an opponent from being able to exploit any withdrawing energy. Our "yang" power always flows out and away from our center towards out opponent so there is nothing to ride back in.

To a large degree the same applies to WC kicks. A WC front thrust kick drives foreward, but does not retract to chamber. Instead, on completion, it drops straight down to the floor, and becomes a step forward according to the kuen kuit (boxing verse) "every kick a step, every step a kick".

Now in our Eskrima, we have long strikes that follow through (labtik) and short flicking strikes that shoot out and snap back (witik) as well as heavy punching strikes, stabs and so forth. None however are perfectly linear. Even the straightest, such as the punching strikes and the thrusts have an element of circularity so that the energy is not expended at impact, but continues through back to chamber. And with the flicking (witik) strikes there is an elastic quality to the extension and rebound which would not be well served by this "reverse training". I can't see how either of these would benefit from training an exaggeratedly slow extension and a fast withdrawal.

On the other hand, I have used something vaguely similar with some knife drills where you thrust in and cut out, or conversely, cut in and snap straight back out. These drills can be introduced with a sort of "slow-mo" extension followed by a rapid withdrawal until the movement is internalized.

 

[Flying Crane]

The concept you describe is part-and-parcel of how we train our method, tho not at all how you describe it. Every training session contains this, both as a primary technical focus on a fundamental level, and built into everything that we do. It is one way to help you understand how to develop a full-body delivery and capability.

By the way, TSDTexan, give me your mailing address in a PM and I'll send you the book.

 

[clfsean]

Like FC said, part & parcel but maybe not quite the same... or maybe it is & I read it too quickly.

If I send a hand out, it comes back with something as I replace it with the other hand. The arms don't move on their own, they're driven by the waist in a push pull mechanism.

The notion though is "faan" or "returning" in Cantonese & the Southern long fist stuff I do.

 

[Koshiki]

My personal take, is that you shouldn't be doing things for no reason. I don't withdraw a hand just because I'm done with it. If I strike to the face, say, my hand is going to stay there, unless it has a good reason to come back. On the face, or if I miss, side of the head, or shoulder, or if it's blocked, the opponents arm, that hand is doing something, it's helping me track and control the other guy. If it pulls back, it's going to be pulling something with it, in which case it's not just "coming back," it's a true Hiki-te, and it needs to be trained just like any other technique.

In other words, I'd rather have my hand on their face, than hovering around my own doing nothing.

Same with a kick. I'd rather push through and into the ground, or wrap the leg, then focus on snapping it back after each attempt to impact. When things return to your body, there should be an intent.

I guess what I'm saying is that every motion should be useful, and that viewing a strike as something that goes out and then returns just for the sake of returning doesn't make sense, again, to my own personal understanding.

What you describe in your example doesn't sound to me like practicing a reverse punch in reverse, it sounds like practicing Hiki-te in the normal direction. For me, Hiki-te, (after sticking-hands) is possibly the most important aspect of Karate and earlier TKD, and more emblematic of the styles than the famous straight punch.

I'll flip it around, and say that, again in my personal practice, it's technically possible to study Karate and never do a traditional straight reverse punch and have it still be Karate, but that if you ditch the Hiki-te, pretty much nothing in Karate makes sense anymore.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'd rather have my hand on their face, than hovering around my own doing nothing.

This has many advantages:

- fight in your opponent's territory.
- force your opponent to play defense.
- squeeze your opponent's space, don't give your opponent enough space to generate power and speed for his punches.
- ...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Who here, at MT uses a method of training the reverse or the backwards motion of a technique?

For example, in Karate related disciplines, a person who practices a reverse punch assumes a stance, chambers, and quickly throws the punch with a crisp snap and clear termination, often focusing solely on the punch, with little thought on the withdrawing hand other then to get it chambered for the next punch. (And yes, there are some who focus on both sides of the coin, but thats not my focus for this question)

But the opposite (for the purpose of this example for this query) would be to slowly punch to full extension, or simply start at full extended position, and suddenly with full power withdraw the strike back to a ready position with total focus and commitment before repeating.

The reverse-reverse punch if you will.

This can refer to any kind of strike in any striking art.

So MT guys and gals... who among you trains a method (by any name) like this? And what is it called in your art?

As an aside, I see a great many schools who give it no yhought and others that give it considerable thought.

We have this type of practice in Jow Ga. It's actually in the form and it's important to us because it seems that our founder didn't like people who grab. Here are the reason we pull our hand back quickly and powerfully

1. Pulling the hand back quickly makes it difficult for someone to grab the extended arm or to interfere with it.
2. Pulling the hand back quickly and powerfully helps drive the other punch that is about to launch
3. Pulling the hand back quickly and powerfully works as a counter grapple in our form
   
4. Pulling the hand back quickly and powerfully drives the power needed to deliver an eblow strike to an opponent behind me. For example, take note of where your elbow is when you chamber your fist, hence the reason chamber fist usually look drawn back the way that they are
5. The faster I can pull my fist back the sooner I can launch the other one.

I think things like this are often forgotten when doing forms. Most people don't go beyond doing a form or remembering the form so the applications and understanding of it are sometimes limited to what is clearly seen. Things like chambering the hands are often done without the idea that it's the same motion used for an elbow strike.

Arms are extended with purpose (to punch, to block, to grab, to keep distance, to find range ect.) Arms should be withdrawn with purpose and intent.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Reverse power. Concentrate on the return rather than the punch. It's one way to develop power in karate that I practice.

 

[Xue Sheng]

BILL MATTOCKS!!!!!

How the heck are you?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Good to see you hear Bill!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm fine, guys. Thanks for the warm welcome back!