A matter of perspective - taijiquan

[Monkey Turned Wolf114 144]

A slow punch can make contact easier than a fast punch can.

If you throw a fast punch and your opponent miss his block, you will also miss your opportunity to make contact.

In his example, it's after you grabbed the lapel and are trying to make that direct contact to the body. At that point, it is tough for the opponent to avoid it.

 

[Marsha Larts]

In his example, it's after you grabbed the lapel and are trying to make that direct contact to the body. At that point, it is tough for the opponent to avoid it.

Trained with some Combat Sambo guys way back in the day and that was one of the things we explored during that training session. It sets up chokes, throws (even one-handed rag-doll throws) and a plethora of other opportunities.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf114 144]

Trained with some Combat Sambo guys way back in the day and that was one of the things we explored during that training session. It sets up chokes, throws (even one-handed rag-doll throws) and a plethora of other opportunities.

Funnily enough, that's a trick I learned from Sambo. Get ahold in some way, use it to get your hand into contact without them removing it, along with a bit of offbalancing, then you can get the throw you want.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

In his example, it's after you grabbed the lapel and are trying to make that direct contact to the body. At that point, it is tough for the opponent to avoid it.

I think you are talking about "striking push". You get a grip; you then punch on your opponent's shoulder (shoulder is the only target for the soft punch allowed in sport).

A striking push followed by a quick pull is "shaking" that you usually do before you execute your throw.

I once wrestled with a Judo instructor. I grabbed his side door, used a striking push on his shoulder. His Judo jacket was too loose. When I punched to his shoulder, I accidently punch on his jaw. He refused to wrestle with me after that.

 

[Marsha Larts]

I think you are talking about "soft punch". You get a grip; you then punch on your opponent's shoulder (shoulder is the only target for the soft punch allowed in sport).

I once wrestled with a Judo instructor. I grabbed his side door, used a soft punch on his shoulder. His Judo jacket was too loose. When I punched to his shoulder, I accidently punch on his jaw. He refused to wrestle with me after that.

Now you all of a sudden know what I'm talking about. Amazing

The fact that you haven't agreed with any of the points I've raised in this 'discussion' tells me everything I need to know. Thanks

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Now you all of a sudden know what I'm talking about. Amazing

The fact that you haven't agreed with any of the points I've raised in this 'discussion' tells me everything I need to know. Thanks

You mentioned that Fajin can help to obtain contact. The "striking push" example that you give only show the Fajin is used after the contact has been obtained.

I like this kind of concrete discussion. I'm not very good in abstract discussion such as "A step is a kick, a punch is a throw, ...".

The original discussion started from a Taiji guy trains "diagonal fly" with Fajin (14.18 - 14.38 in this video). Whether it's proper or not is what we are discussing right now.

 

[Marsha Larts]

You mentioned that Fajin can help to obtain contact. The "striking push" example that you give only show the Fajin is used after the contact has been obtained.

No, one of the things I said was that fajin makes contact. You added all the other nonsense.

I like this kind of concrete discussion. I'm not very good in abstract discussion such as "A step is a kick, a punch is a throw, ...".

Not my fault if you don't understand the concept.

A grip is a fist and and a punch is a throw.

The original discussion started from a Taiji guy trains "diagonal fly" with Fajin (14.18 - 14.38 in this video).

No it didn't. It started from this closing line in the op.

But from each persons perspective, based on their years of training, they are all correct.

You decided to misrepresent what is shown in the video you brought into the discussion with a narrow, personal 'interpretation' of Diagonal Flying. It is an excellent starting point for a different discussion, though.

Whether it's proper or not is what we are discussing right now.

Nope. That's what you want to discuss. Knock yourself out.

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

You decided to misrepresent what is shown in the video you brought into the discussion with a narrow, personal 'interpretation' of Diagonal Flying. It is an excellent starting point for a different discussion, though.

What the heck are you talking about, i decided to misrepresent what in what video!?… there was no video in my op and i was not talking about a video. That was personal experience

The only video i linked was to show a bit if irony to the statement “Chen to low”, Yang to high”

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Not my fault if you don't understand the concept.

... a punch is a throw.

Because your concept is wrong.

How many times do I have to repeat here. A punch is not a throw. A punch uses 1 point contact. A throw uses multiple points contact.

 

[Marsha Larts]

What the heck are you talking about, i decided to misrepresent what in what video!?… there was no video in my op and i was not talking about a video. That was personal experience

The only video i linked was to show a bit if irony to the statement “Chen to low”, Yang to high”

I know

That comment was to Kung Fu Wang re: his misrepresenting what is shown in the video that *QuantumKitty posted, with Kung Fu Wang taking issue with fajin being expressed in the Diagonal Flying in that video.

Apologies for the confusion.

*edit*
Who posted which video

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

I know

That comment was to Kung Fu Wang re: his misrepresenting what is shown in the video that *QuantumKitty posted, with Kung Fu Wang taking issue with fajin being expressed in the Diagonal Flying in that video.

Apologies for the confusion.

*edit*
Who posted which video

No worries, i was quoted above the comment in your post, that was the confusion

And when it comes to Taijiquan, one must expect Kung Fu Wang to misrepresent and misunderstand. He knows a heck of a lot about Shuaijiao, not so much about Taijiquan IMO

 

[isshinryuronin4 3]

Every step is a kick - every punch is a throw
Every kick is a step - every throw is a punch

A punch is not a throw.

A kick may act as a step if one puts the kicking leg down other than where it started. The kick can cover one as they close the gap for example. A step may act as a kick if the stepping leg is used to make contact with the opponent's leg, breaking his balance. And this is stretching the definitions of stepping/kicking. As such, the first quote IMO is overly broad at best, and mostly inaccurate. But it sounds very Mr. Miyagi-ish.

While in some TMA kata/forms a throw may appear as a punch (hiding the true application), they are not the same kind of thing. No matter how I look at it, a throw uses pushing and/or pulling power with some part of the body being used as a fulcrum, most commonly a hip or thigh (there may be a rare exception*). This means there is most always at least 2 contact points: The point of power transfer (grab or hook) and the fulcrum point. It's possible for 3 contact points if one is using 2 hands, such as grabbing the arm with one and hooking the body with the other while bending him over your thigh to the ground.

* Exception: If you have hold of the opponent's arm and pull one way while sweeping the leg in the opposite direction the opponent may go down. This is a scissoring action with no fulcrum, just bi-directional power transfers. I don't consider this a throw. I mention it just for clarification.

Aside from all the above, the type of power applied sets striking apart from throwing. Throwing involves follow-thru force (pull or push) to move the opponent thru space, often overcoming gravity. A momentary application of force such as a punch does not accomplish this (is a knockout a throw?). In the case of fajin as shown in post #64, it can be seen force is applied for just a micro-second. Contact lasts less time than can be humanly observed. This is in contrast to what is observed in throws where contact is maintained for up to a very long half-second.

So, a punch is not a throw.

 

[Same Trick59 10]

Hasn't tried it. Doesn't know why one would do it. Therefore, it can't be good. Typical.

No I mean, why in first place take a hold of someone’s lapel if you anyway wanted /intend to punch with that hand.

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

Because your concept is wrong.

How many times do I have to repeat here. A punch is not a throw. A punch uses 1 point contact. A throw uses multiple points contact.

A punch can be a take down, and a punch can become a throw.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

And when it comes to Taijiquan, one must expect Kung Fu Wang to misrepresent and misunderstand. He knows a heck of a lot about Shuaijiao, not so much about Taijiquan IMO

Chang Taiji is different from Yang Taiji, Chen Taiji, and ... Chang Taiji emphasizes application with leg skill (not self-cultivation, inner peace, culture study, health, performance, and ...).

In Taiji discussion, I can only give my opinion from Chang Taiji point of view.

 

[QuantumKitty]

Chang Taiji is different from Yang Taiji, Chen Taiji, and ... Chang Taiji emphasizes application with leg skill (not self-cultivation, inner peace, culture study, health, performance, and ...).

In Taiji discussion, I can only give my opinion from Chang Taiji point of view.

I looked up a few things, and I would like to verify a few things with you since you seem to know about Shuai Jiao:

I am reading this...

As the story goes, Grandmaster Chang was observing General Li Chien, considered the leading expert of Yang style Taichi, practicing pushing hands (a type of sparring in Taichi) with some of his students. General Li asked Chang’s opinion. Chang, never one to pull punches, both figuratively and literally, replied that he thought the students were letting him win due to his high rank. Surprised at the audacity of Chang’s remark, Li asked Chang if he would like to have a try himself. Chang accepted the offer, whereupon Chang promptly sent Li to the ground. Eventually, General Li came to consider Chang his equal and a friend. He was so impressed by Chang’s combat skills and applications that their collaboration resulted in an entirely new style of Taichi, today known as Chang style.

So, Chang brutally honest said he thought the Yang teacher's applications only worked because of the students were just letting the teacher win.

And when asked to try, Chang just threw the Yang teacher to the ground.

I am seeing very little reason for Chang to think positively for the Yang Taiji he saw here. Any thoughts or insights on this?

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

I looked up a few things, and I would like to verify a few things with you since you seem to know about Shuai Jiao:

I am reading this...



So, Chang brutally honest said he thought the Yang teacher's applications only worked because of the students were just letting the teacher win.

And when asked to try, Chang just threw the Yang teacher to the ground.

I am seeing very little reason for Chang to think positively for the Yang Taiji he saw here. Any thoughts or insights on this?

What you have read was exactly what Chang had told me.

During the match, Li used "diagonal fly", Chang countered with SC "body squeeze" and took Li down (Chang had controlled on Li's back leg. Li had no control on Chang's leg). Li said, "I though you don't know Taiji". Chang said, "What you just did to me is called 'body squeeze' in SC by adding the leg control". Li then realized that the major difference between Taiji and SC was the additional "leg skill". By adding the "leg skill", a Taiji push will become a throw. Li then exchanged his Taiji knowledge with Chang's leg skill knowledge. All Li's life, Li had never said that Chang was his student but good MA brothers.

Chang had changed 6 moves from the original 108 moves Yang long form. For example, he took "XingYi Pi Quan with kick" to replace "Taiji cross legs".

 

[windwalker099114 144]

All Li's life, Li had never said that Chang was his student but good MA brothers.

Chang had changed 6 moves from the original 108 moves Yang long form. For example, he took "XingYi Pi Quan with kick" to replace "Taiji cross legs".

Do you feel Chang taiji is different from the other family styles?
Does it follow the same tenets as the family styles ?

 

[QuantumKitty]

What you have read was exactly what Chang had told me.

During the match, Li used "diagonal fly", Chang countered with SC "body squeeze" and took Li down. Li said, "I though you don't know Taiji". Chang said, "What you just did to me in SC is called 'body squeeze' by adding the leg control". Li then understood that the major difference between Taiji and SC was the additional "leg skill". Li then exchanged his Taiji knowledge with Chang's leg skill knowledge.

Chang had changed 6 moves from the original 108 moves Yang long form. For example, he took "XingYi Pi Quan with kick" to replace "Taiji cross legs".

In Taiwan, Chang made a lot of Taiji people unhappy because he said in public that "Taiji has no leg" (exactly words said by Chang).

Oh wow, that's interesting.

The line of Chen I study, when it comes to foot usage, we favor methods such as sneaky placement of the foot for trips and throws, hooking the opponent’s foot, sweeping the opponent’s leg, stomping the side of the opponent’s knee, using the knee to bump the opponent's leg, scraping down the opponent’s shins with the edge of our shoe, and stepping on the opponent’s foot.

In contrast to many Yang forms I have seen, in my form practice, most of our steps involve lifting the knee until the thigh is parallel to the floor. That action maps onto stuff like kneeing, checking kicks, hooking the opponent's foot, etc...

We also just have sequences like Canons Over Head that involve what appears like a backwards kick, but in usage, it's commonly used to just target the back of the opponent's leg while throwing them down.

I think my teacher would mostly agree with Chang's remark on "Taiji has no leg." In fact, he pretty said those exact words himself before, but he was referring to some other Taiji styles. My teacher is also the type to upset people with his brutally honest opinions.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Do you feel Chang taiji is different from the other family styles?
Does it follow the same tenets as the family styles ?

I can only compare with Yang Taiji.

Chang Taiji

- emphasizes leg skill (Chang said "Yang Taiji has no leg").
- is not 100% soft. It's soft with hard, and hard with soft.
- emphasizes 1 move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale. The breathing speed control the form speed (This is not normally followed in other Yang Taiji). Chang Taiji 108 moves form takes about 5 minutes.
- never turn head away from opponent (such as step back repluse monkey).
- never rotate forward and backward to lift toes (no matter how strong the wind blow, the root is solid).
- never mention self-cultivation, inner peace, culture study, ...
- ...