A matter of perspective - taijiquan

[Xue Sheng107 24]

Folks, the OP's wishes are something I honor, however, when amygdalas jangle, people post. Note, I found a better forum, so I will not be porting back here to answer any questions. All my best.

A bit disingenuous aren’t you…you have not honored the OP’s wishes before…… and how many times are you going to tell us your leaving … no one cares… just go already

Also, if you find yourself with writers block in the future, instead of going to a forum and interjecting unrelated posts into the thread, and then posting a fictional account in your blog, why not write about something you should know a lot about, like narcissistic personality disorder

B’bye

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

Why come to a discussion forum and then insist on carrying on all discussions through private messaging?

Good question, why say you’re done with same thread half a dozen times…. Need for attention maybe… don’t really care… just hope he is actually gone… but i doubt it… he will be back to tell us he’s leaving again soon

 

[Marsha Larts]

Form is merely the outward appearance of a thing as the eye sees it and shows it to the mind, and then the mind attempts to communicate that form of a thing to the body. But the body doesn't understand outward form - it only understands the shape of a thing as it feels it from within and needs for that shape to be explained in a way that it can remember and repeat it.

For instance, the mind follows what the eye sees when a person is shown a punch, but the body only understands it as reaching because that's what it's almost hard-wired to do even before the person is born. It's the clever, conniving mind that figures out how to contort that primal response into hooks, jabs, uppercuts and whatever else it contrives to make the hand be a weapon or some other servile device in fulfilling the mind's goals, needs, wants...

Could add a lot more gibberish to that idea, but I have stuff to do

*edit*

Just an afterthought before heading out

In a taiji context, explaining the shapes of taijiquan to the body started from a state of Central Equilibrium with a lot of time spent letting the body connect itself without 'mindful' correction or physically contorting the body according to what the mind decided was 'proper form' - allowing the body to connect itself as it felt fit to do without the mind yapping away at it.

If both the Yang and Wu/Hao treatises state that the mind is sovereign and the body is the servant? How does what's written above reconcile with what's written in the classics?

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

If we compare Chen Taiji and Yang Taiji, we may question, what happened to the Yang Taiji power generation?

 

[QuantumKitty]

If we compare Chen Taiji and Yang Taiji, we may question, what happened to the Yang Taiji power generation?

In Fu Zhongwen's lineage, we do see it again:

But we don't normally see Yang practice it this way.

Ma Hong has said in an interview: "Originally, in Yang style and Wu style, they also used to practice fa jin. When Yang passed the style on to his son, they still would fa jin. But then, from the third generation on - Yang's third generation, Wu's second generation - they no longer practiced fa jin."

I have no idea if what Ma Hong said is true or not.

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 10]

If both the Yang and Wu/Hao treatises state that the mind is sovereign and the body is the servant? How does what's written above reconcile with what's written in the classics?

The sovereign cannot be served by directing every motion of the servant.

 

[isshinryuronin4 3]

In Fu Zhongwen's lineage, we do see it again:

But we don't normally see Yang practice it this way.

Ma Hong has said in an interview: "Originally, in Yang style and Wu style, they also used to practice fa jin. When Yang passed the style on to his son, they still would fa jin. But then, from the third generation on - Yang's third generation, Wu's second generation - they no longer practiced fa jin."

I have no idea if what Ma Hong said is true or not.

I found these examples of fa jin power generation interesting as I've seldom seen this in CMA. It is not from twisting/rotating the body as in much kung fu, nor is it from strong hip rotation or deep thrusting follow-thru as seen in some karate, nor from raising or lowering the body.

It appears to be similar to chinkuchi which is an Okinawan karate method based on relaxation followed by a sudden tensing leading to explosive deliverance of force. It's more snapping than thrusting. This is what I see in the Chen Xiao Wang and Fu Zhongwen video clips. Surprised to see this in taiji!

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

In Fu Zhongwen's lineage, we do see it again:

But we don't normally see Yang practice it this way.

Ma Hong has said in an interview: "Originally, in Yang style and Wu style, they also used to practice fa jin. When Yang passed the style on to his son, they still would fa jin. But then, from the third generation on - Yang's third generation, Wu's second generation - they no longer practiced fa jin."

I have no idea if what Ma Hong said is true or not.

Also see it in the Tung Ying Chieh line as well

 

[windwalker099114 144]

It appears to be similar to chinkuchi which is an Okinawan karate method based on relaxation followed by a sudden tensing leading to explosive deliverance of force. It's more snapping than thrusting. This is what I see in the Chen Xiao Wang and Fu Zhongwen video clips. Surprised to see this in taiji!

Good example… thread topic: perspective.

If someone is surprised to see this in Taiji, others might say, “Then it’s not Taiji.”
But is it?

Not saying what is or isn’t — just pointing out how perspectives differ on what people consider to be Taiji.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Wu/Hao Single Whip and Brush Knee Twist Step on the column
Yang Brush Knee Twist Step on the heavybag:

Video Unavailable

This video is unavailable.

streamable.com

My Taijutsu buddy recorded that in my training hall quite a while ago after asking to see some of the differences between the 2 styles.

Wu/Hao and Yang develop very different body method from one another, but their respective body methods are trained in a very similar manner. The main difference is in how the Six Harmonies are arranged in the solo training and how they're put into the body as solo and 2-person testing.

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

Wu/Hao Single Whip and Brush Knee Twist Step on the column
Yang Brush Knee Twist Step on the heavybag:

Video Unavailable

This video is unavailable.

streamable.com

My Taijutsu buddy recorded that in my training hall quite a while ago after asking to see some of the differences between the 2 styles.

Wu/Hao and Yang develop very different body method from one another, but their respective body methods are trained in a very similar manner. The main difference is in how the Six Harmonies are arranged in the solo training and how they're put into the body as solo and 2-person testing.

Wu/Hao style, in part comes from Yang. It is a mixture of Yang, Chen and possibly some Zhaobao

 

[Marsha Larts]

Wu/Hao style, in part comes from Yang. It is a mixture of Yang, Chen and possibly some Zhaobao

Not really a mixture or synthesis. The 'Essentials' set it apart in a pretty significant way.

 

[isshinryuronin4 3]

I'm a bit confused on the classification of striking CMA. Do practitioners divide it into these general categories (understanding there may be several or dozens of variants of each)?

kung fu northern
kung fu southern
taiji
bagua
xing yi
other?

How do you see it?

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Good example… thread topic: perspective.

If someone is surprised to see this in Taiji, others might say, “Then it’s not Taiji.”
But is it?

Not saying what is or isn’t — just pointing out how perspectives differ on what people consider to be Taiji.

In this post, you still have not said whether Taiji should have power generation or not.

IMO, Faiji make sense in the striking art. It doesn't make sense in the throwing art. Most of the throws use Bulldozer force (constant speed force). When I see people put Fajin in "diagonal fly", it just doesn't make sense to me. If you need to borrow your opponent's force, your "accelerate speed" is not important.

 

[Marsha Larts]

In this post, you still have not said whether Taiji should have power generation or not.

IMO, Faiji make sense in the striking art. It doesn't make sense in the throwing art. Most of the throws use Bulldozer force (constant speed force). When I see people put Fajin in "diagonal fly", it just doesn't make sense to me. If you need to borrow your opponent's force, your "accelerate speed" is not important.

Every step is a kick - every punch is a throw
Every kick is a step - every throw is a punch

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

- every punch is a throw
- every throw is a punch

- A punch uses 1 contact point. A throw uses at least 2 contact points.
- A punch uses acceleration speed. A throw uses bulldozer speed.

The acceleration speed is used in throw for "shaking - quick pull and quick push".

 

[windwalker099114 144]

In this post, you still have not said whether Taiji should have power generation or not.

The perspective we bring to the table shapes what we think is “power.”
If you see power as raw force (力, li), Taiji may look weak or ineffective.
If you understand power as jin (劲) — refined, whole-body, led by intent — then you see a very different kind of strength.

The question isn’t whether Taiji has power generation, but how one defines power in the first place.

 

[Marsha Larts]

- A punch uses 1 contact point. A throw uses at least 2 contact points.
- A punch uses acceleration speed. A throw uses bulldozer speed.

The acceleration speed is used in throw for "shaking - quick pull and quick push".

You've never punched someone while in a clinch? Or thrown someone with a single grip/point of contact?

'Bulldozer speed' can be presented as an overt intention to hit in order to break up rhythm and cause involuntary and/or avoidance responses which can then be exploited. 'Acceleration speed' can also be used to feign a throw for the same purpose.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

You've never punched someone while in a clinch? Or thrown someone with a single grip/point of contact?

Is your punch part of the throw or separate? If it's separate, your punch does need power generation with acceleration speed. Striking is "head on collision". Most of the throws are "rear end collision (borrow force)".

In your opinion, which throw only use 1 contact point?

For example,

- a foot sweep requires shoulder pulling and ankle sweep - 2 contact points going in opposite directions.
- a hip throw requires arm pulling, waist wrapping, and hip lifting - 3 contact points going the same directions.

This ankle pull uses 1 contact point. But this is considered as a special case and not a normal case.

a

 

[Marsha Larts]

Is your punch part of the throw or separate? If it's separate, your punch does need power generation with acceleration speed. Striking is "head on collision". Most of the throws are "rear end collision (borrow force)".

In your opinion, which throw only use 1 contact point?

It misses the point. Taiji doesn't work like that.

The idea behind what I wrote is that there isn't really anything definite in the way contact is managed and/or exploited. It's meant to shift perception from a technicentric (my word) thinking to an abstract approach to dealing with pressure and force.

Brush Knee Twist Step can be used to hit or throw. It can hit with the hand, forearm, elbow, shoulder, or head. It can throw with a push, pull, or leg blocking. There are no techniques...until there is.