A matter of perspective - taijiquan
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
- Start date
What do you intend to achieve when your arms touch on your opponent's arms?
You may have 2 different purposes:
- In striking art, you want to guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. You can then punch him with your free hand.
- In wrestling art, you want to control your opponent's arm/arms so you can apply your leg skill.
If you have purpose in mind, you will not do it "without much object".
Same Trick59 10
Master of Arts
I’ve speculated on this before, could it be that traditionally CMA challenge/competition fights especially on the leitai arena(raised platform) started in the touch hand position, and it’s from there push hands idea developed?
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QuantumKitty
Orange Belt
Hey, um... are you aware that when I wrote "without much objective", I am referring to how many others define Tuishou and that it's not referring to my own belief?
I said all that because I have encountered many beliefs (that I don't agree with) such as:
- Pushing too hard = not real Tuishou because Tuishou must be "barely-touching".
- Initiating = Wrong which leads them to then think between two high level Taiji masters... nothing would happen because neither would initiate and world peace has been achieved since no violence can occur if no one initiates.
- Tuishou has no applications. Applications = bad because it's "technique-oriented".
- Tuishou is all about "bouncing" someone away.
QuantumKitty
Orange Belt
I’ve speculated on this before, could it be that traditionally CMA challenge/competition fights especially on the leitai arena(raised platform) started in the touch hand position, and it’s from there push hands idea developed?
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Is there any evidence of Leitai matches actually starting with two opponents in physical contact already?
Because when I google Leitai matches, the old videos I am seeing have both fighters starting a distance.
Appledog50 3
Purple Belt
What do you think?
windwalker099114 144
Master of Arts
Maybe try answering the question directly — or describe how you approach it in your own practice, if you can.
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
Nobody will hazard an explanation. That would take too much guess-work.
Besides, it's obvious that no one even wants to know.
Besides, it's obvious that no one even wants to know.
I know those are not what you believe, and I agree with your post 100%. What you have addressed many others "without much objective" is like training solo form and daydream at the same time.
Doing PH in slow speed may decrease your alert during arm contact. In fighting, you should feel "your shirt is on fire". When your right arm touch on your opponent's right arm, you have to watch out your opponent's left arm will take over the contact.
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Traditionally CMA challenge/competition fights are like this. The moment when 2 are close in punching range, one intends to knock the other out.
windwalker099114 144
Master of Arts
IME the mindset a little different from boxing or matches where people are evenly paired.
CMA challenge matches, one may feel they’ve mastered something — until they meet someone who truly has. There were no weight classes, nor any expectation of equal skill. A problem for some expecting rule sets or compassion… not really the norm.
Those who speak of Wude (武德, martial virtue), maybe not understanding it's not a universal trait among masters — not when pride, money, or reputation were on the line.
it’s a challenge, even in Beijing, if could not hold the place they taught in a park.
they'd lose it to someone who could...one of the reasons why most don't take on challengers publicly...directly
In Tibetan White Crane.
They talk of Ruthlessness (Chan)
If a tiger is (only) wounded, it could bite back.
Therefore, (no matter) in fighting an elephant or a hare, a lion would use its full strength.
Traditional CMA challenge fights were about ending things quickly — what’s called 速战速决 (sù zhàn sù jué), the quick-fight strategy.
Not about trading blows or scoring points. The goal was decisive control — entering, breaking balance, and finishing before the opponent could recover.
A good example Wong Yin Lum (黄隐林). "He planned to open a kung fu school and needed money, so he entered a public challenge arena — the perfect stage to make his name and attract students. For a week, he fought all challengers, defeating each one decisively.
He would move in, take the opponent’s balance, then destroy their defense with powerful, precise strikes. In the end, Master Wong defeated more than 150 opponents and was declared the Kung Fu Champion of China."
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Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
Looks a lot like our Sunday Open Mat sessionsTraditionally CMA challenge/competition fights are like this. The moment when 2 are close in punching range, one intends to knock the other out.
Same Trick59 10
Master of Arts
Are they the Nanjing 1930ish competitions ?
I’ve only seen stills from those events and yes there it show the dualists a bit away from each other, it may be in mid fight after the starting point of initial hand touch?
Have you a non YouTube link ?
Here’s an old pic from leitai match
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Same Trick59 10
Master of Arts
Your pic won’t open for me, but yes boxing function like that, touch gloves go back to one’s corner then the fight start, I speculated that old Chinese challenge fight started directly with the touch “gloves”.Traditionally CMA challenge/competition fights are like this. The moment when 2 are close in punching range, one intends to knock the other out.
Read somewhere a long time ago about ancient Indian kind of contest boxing had the two combatants tied to each other so alway at striking distance
Chang Taiji also uses natural breathing. Your body movement follow your breathing speed (not the other way around). This training is very important. Not only your body movement can coordinate with your breathing, but also you can sense your body movement that help your breathing such as
- punch/kick out (exhale),
- pull punch/kick back (inhale),
- raise arms (inhale),
- drop arms (exhale),
- arms move out (inhale),
- arms move in (exhale),
- body raise (inhale),
- body drop (exhale),
- ...
There are a lot of benefit if you always think about your breathing.
For example, the Taiji ending include:
- Arms move out (inhale).
- Arms move in (exhale).
- Arms separate (inhale).
- Arms drop (exhale).
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That's a good point. Most of my karate instructors emphasized a hard exhale on executing a technique. My current instructor has us do that during combos, but also executing a whole combo while exhaling in one steady breath. Its like a whole different world.
isshinryuronin4 3
Senior Master
It is said by the wise masters that you should never expel more than 2/3 of your air. If you can't do a whole combo in that one breath, the combo is too long.
In CMA, 1/8 is the minimum amount of air that you need to reserve in your lung (in case you need to use it to cancel out the outside force).
If you don't train "section breathing", you may not know how much air that you still have in your lung, 1/2? 1/3? 1/4, ...?
Today, when I walked on the beach, I was doing this combo. I would
- exhale 1/3 on the 1st punch.
- exhale 1/3 on the 2nd punch.
- inhale when I rotate my body (in fighting, I won't have time to inhale here).
- exhale 2/3 on my 3rd punch.
In the whole combo, I always remain 1/3 air in my lung.
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