All MA systems are built under physics, logic, and concrete. The Taiji system tries to make everything abstract.
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A matter of perspective - taijiquan
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
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Same Trick59 10
Master of Arts
agree with this.
And to me, loads of that Taiji-fali is crap, even the Chen style boxing fajin stuff.
this fajing stuff for a novice he/she might think it looks truly powerful, an advanced Taiji player that never really sparred or fought may fool himself being a really powerful fighter. It’s a trap rather than something useful
QuantumKitty
Orange Belt
Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi are all Northern Chinese martial arts.
What is Northern vs Southern is defined by whether the art originated north or south of the Yangtze River (the longest river in China).
Generally speaking, martial arts from similar regions tend to have a lot of overlap in martial art usage.
For example, if I look at skilled old-timers show applications in Bajiquan, Northern Praying Mantis, or Baguazhang, I can go: "Oh! That looks like our application in this sequence."
And that's because they're all Northern Chinese martial arts; they will be overlap.
But conversely... this means that if a martial art style has none of those applications that everybody else in the surrounding region has, that makes them the outlier. That could be a sign of a broken transmission.
Another classification for Chinese martial art usages is: Ti (Kick), Da (Hit), Shuai (Throw), Na (Seizing, joint locking/Qinna).
The ratio of each of these four varies from style to style. Some styles may be underdeveloped in one of these four areas.
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Wing Woo Gar49 10
Grandmaster
I might see the differences and respect the origins, but I really just think of these things as siblings or close relatives. The thing they all have in common is that the practitioners need to be on their legs for any of it to be useful. I might recognize various Dutch masters for their different ways of expressing their art, but all of them are still just painters making pictures.
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
Taiji serves the person. There are as many styles as players. One person might see an opportunity to hit where someone else might see the same set of circumstances offering an opportunity to lock and throw.
It allows for specialization in the same way that it fosters adaptation as skills are acquired. An individuals physical proportioning and psychophysiology are important factors in how they assimilate taiji method and apply it in both solo and 2-person activities.
Yang Banhou is credited with writing the book entitled; Explaining Taiji Principles. In it, there's a discussion about the physical education being equally important as the martial. If all a person focuses on is the martial without the physical education, or the physical education without the martial, the taiji sucks.
Physical education is internal and the martial is external. The physical education is deeply personal and is understood on the individual's own terms as a matter of perspective. While everyone within a training group might be working on the same material, they will each make their own discoveries of how their body is influenced by that work.
It's really too bad that taiji ends up being so abstract based on the fact that the art respects the player's perspective while not forcing the same outcomes for everyone. If we could just discard all that internal discovery crap, everyone could finally think just like you.
Wing Woo Gar49 10
Grandmaster
I agree with you here, it needs to function, there are different dangers on both sides of the road. In general, often times it’s too physical
or not physical enough, that middle ground may be where the “ art” of Tai Chi Chuan is found. I often find myself questioning my practice in this way, trying to improve my relationship to myself. One of my Sifu’s common comments about my practice was simply to say “too much”, or “what does that feel like?”
One time I saw a guy put Fajin into his foot sweep. It may look cool, but it adds no extra value in the throw. The reason is simple. If you use Fajin, you lost contact quickly with your opponent. All throws require to sense your opponent's body as long as you can which is the opposite of Fajin.
If you tell a
- BJJ guy that he needs Fajin in ground game, or
- wrestler that he needs Fajin in single leg or double legs,
he won't understand what you are talking about. Fajin is absolutely needed in the striking art. It's not absolutely needed in the throwing art.
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Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
Wrestling fajin:
Standing gut wrench
Body lock
Supplex
Lots of rotational, whole-body and leg fajin in judo
If you
- have controlled your opponent's back leg, you don't need Fajin to take your opponent down.
- don't have controlled your opponent's back leg, a Fajin can only push your opponent away and not throw him down.
So, the requirement of throwing is 2 points control (leg control) and not Fajin.
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
We're kind of talking past each other.
I cited BKTS as one taiji sequence which contains enough ('abstract') latitude to be expressed as a hitting method or throwing method. The sequence is powered by an expression of fajin within a specific 'shape', or 'movement pattern'. It can have the fajin expressed in much the same way that a cross is applied in boxing. It can also be expressed in much the same way that tai otoshi is applied in Judo. It may not need fajin, as you keep repeating, but if the sequence is trained in solo and tested in 2-person with that expression of fajin, then a taiji player can, and will apply fajin in their BKTS to either 'application' whether it's 'needed' or not. It's the power source that is put into the body when a taiji player is properly trained, whether you and trick like it or not.
Regardless of whether or not there's a blocking leg used to apply tai otoshi, many Judoka use similar or the same type of fajin to affect the throw. The idea is to be slack/relaxed as the turn is made before the body drops, and then 'fajin' as the the pull is applied.
Some Judoka don't think of 'pulling' at that final moment of applying the explosive movement. They actually have the intention of 'pushing' (kinda like punching) with the grip they have on the opp's gi. Why does Judo try to make tai otoshi abstract?
I believe we are.
Let's take a look at "push". When you push your opponent's shoulder, do you want to use
- Fajin and lose contact right away? or
- Bulldozer speed, sticky and follow, and make sure that your opponent's shoulder touch on the ground?
In this video, he pushes his opponent's shoulder all the way down to the ground. His right hand and his opponent's left should remain contact until his opponent's body is on the ground. A Fajin will not be able to achieve this.
This is the main difference between "push your opponent away" and "throw your opponent down". When you throw your opponent down, you want to maintain contact as long as you can with "sticky and follow".
Here is another example. His right hand tries to control his opponent's right shoulder as long as he can with "sticky and follow".
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
Both of those examples show a grip being applied to 'uke's' jacket.
Gripping isn't 'stick and follow' - it's gripping.
Stick and follow doesn't need grips to send the opp to the floor once the opp is beyond the tipping point, and the non-gripping hand can absolutely follow the opp as far as needs be to the terminus of their 'push' in adding speed/impetus to the opp's fall. IOW, the sticking and following hand no longer needs to be in contact once the throw has occurred and the opp is already on their way. The sticking and following hand can stop at knee height or maybe even waist height.
The throws shown in those examples require grips in order for them to work. They will have inherently different dynamic qualities from a throw that uses no gripping of the hand.
As an aside, there are entwining and wrapping methods of hands and arms that can, and do, accomplish the same goal in sending an opp to the floor/ground.
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Hook is more powerful than glue. When you apply
- glue, it can break lose.
- hook, the contact can remain.
By using hook (grip), the contact point can be enhanced. The concept of grip (remaqin contact) is the opposite of Fajin (break contact).
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Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
Fajin can be used to either make, or break contact.
If a hand is gripping a lapel, it's a fist, and can be used to fajin into the chest, shoulder, neck, or even the jaw if the lapel is slack enough to allow the hand that much reach. The hand can continue to grip the lapel, and fajin can be repeated as many times as the situation allows.
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Fajin can be used to break contact. Fajin cannot be used to make contact. You want to keep your friend close but your enemy closer.
The idea of "pushing your opponent away" instead of "throwing your opponent down" is what I have concern. I like the idea of "punch to the face" or "throw the body down". I just don't like the idea of "push opponent away".
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
That doesn't make any sense. Fajin can certainly be applied to hitting = making contact. Or as you call it 'head on collision'.
I'm not talking about "push opponent away" - you are. I'm discussing the various ways in which faijin can be applied that have absolutely nothing to do with "pushing your opponent away".
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A slow punch can make contact easier than a fast punch can.
If you throw a fast punch and your opponent miss his block, you will also miss your opportunity to make contact.
Same Trick59 10
Master of Arts
This I haven’t tried(and why should one do that ? )but it sounds not very realistically effective
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
Hasn't tried it. Doesn't know why one would do it. Therefore, it can't be good. Typical.
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