A matter of perspective - taijiquan

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Taijiquan is practiced as an internal martial art.

350 years ago, a non-MA scholar Wang Zhengnan invented the term "internal" in 1669. People started to argue with that term "internal" for 350 years. "Internal and external" argument is like "pure blood and mud blood" argument. It will continue for another 1000 years.

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

I can only compare with Yang Taiji.

Chang Taiji

- emphasizes leg skill (Chang said "Yang Taiji has no leg"

Yes it does, maybe not as extensive as Cheng wanted, but it does. Flying diagonally is a take down using the legs, and the stepping in block parry punch can be a sweep. As a matter of fact, repulse monkey can also be a trip, or sweep.

).
- is not 100% soft. It's soft with hard, and hard with soft.

Yang is not 100% soft either, it is both Yin & Yang

- emphasizes 1 move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale. The breathing speed control the form speed (This is not normally followed in other Yang Taiji). Chang Taiji 108 moves form takes about 5 minutes.

Nope, natural breathing, no time at all

- never turn head away from opponent (such as step back repluse monkey).

You don’t turn your head from the opponent in step back in repulse monkey in traditional yang the way I learned it. However they do in the Beijing 24 form, which is based on Yang, but not from the Yang family

Always told that while doing the form, focus on the opponent

- never rotate forward and backward to lift toes (no matter how strong the wind blow, the root is solid).

so… you’re double weighted then and don’t move….. you don’t move forward and backwards lifting toes in a stationary stance in traditional yang as I learned it, you stay rooted. However the do lift toes in the Beijing 24 form

- never mention self-cultivation, inner peace, culture study, ...

Neither did my Shifu… of traditional Yang taijiquan… and Tung Ying Chieh was my teachers teacher…

Taijiquan is a combination of kicks, punches, qinna and shuaijiso

So, like i said, you know Shuaijiso, but not taijiquan

 

[Marsha Larts]

350 years ago, a non-MA scholar Wang Zhengnan invented the term "internal" in 1669. People started to argue with that term "internal" for 350 years. "Internal and external" argument is like "pure blood and mud blood" argument. It will continue for another 1000 years.

Neigong

 

[Marsha Larts]

In my own training, the focus is on:


空 (kōng) – Emptiness
Not absence, but open potential.
In Taiji, kōng means remaining unoccupied, offering no resistance—yet being fully aware.
Emptiness allows force to be received without clash, and movement to arise without being forced.
When you are empty, nothing sticks—and everything moves.


The hardest part of the training is shifting the mindset — first to understand that without it, nothing else works.
The method itself is built around this aspect.

In many Taiji threads, especially those emphasizing fajin, the approach isn’t much different from other CMA — the mindset behind it does not allow for what is done with the practices that foucs on "emptiness"

That's where it started on the first day of studying Wu/Hao, but it takes a bit of a different direction - at least in the solo training - and then a very different direction once there's enough there to be tested.

The testing is quite specific as well because the neigong peculiar to that style is focused on cultivating body methods in a strict order of progression, and not a progression I necessarily agree with because that 'emptiness' is absent once those body methods become the focus.

There's no modulation in 'emptiness' - it's either completely 'on' or completely 'off'.

Anyway, it's been the assumption that the product of those cultivation practices are somehow incidental or a product of unrelated martial practices. Nothing could be further from the truth. A simple foray into a basic neigong exercise would prove that out in short order for anyone wanting to find out for themselves.

 

[windwalker099114 144]

Anyway, it's been the assumption that the product of those cultivation practices are somehow incidental or a product of unrelated martial practices. Nothing could be further from the truth. A simple foray into a basic neigong exercise would prove that out in short order for anyone wanting to find out for

Once the training becomes method-driven, the sense of emptiness (空, kōng) often disappears — it becomes about what the body is doing rather than where it’s moving from.

IME, emptiness isn’t something that can be turned on or off once developed.

It’s the ground from which any neigong (内功) or shenfa (身法) arises. When the method replaces that ground, practice narrows; when the ground remains, the methods become transparent.

The Six Harmonies (六合, liù hé) make one aware of both outer and inner alignments. Over time, this creates a kind of feedback loop that refines awareness and strengthens the reliance on the natural function already present in everyone — for most, not yet developed enough to be applied consciously beyond the body’s normal life-maintaining functions.

Many of the demonstrations often questioned serve as ways of testing and developing this awareness of usage.

 

[windwalker099114 144]

Why doesn't the opponent not empty intention within his arms or can he ?

he talks about before touch,,, what is being acted on is
related shown in the first video

 

[_Simon_113 144]

Question to anyone really, would you say Taijiquan has certain foundational categories it focuses on as a system? Eg like a lot of karate training is based around kihon, kata and kumite (as a generalisation); obviously there are different systems of Taijiquan, but curious if there are distinctions of training categories (like forms, push hands etc) that make up taijiquan or whether it's more holistic or intuitively weaved together as such...

We do push hands in class but only perodically, I'd so love to practice and delve into it more somehow

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 10]

Question to anyone really, would you say Taijiquan has certain foundational categories it focuses on as a system? Eg like a lot of karate training is based around kihon, kata and kumite (as a generalisation); obviously there are different systems of Taijiquan, but curious if there are distinctions of training categories (like forms, push hands etc) that make up taijiquan or whether it's more holistic or intuitively weaved together as such...

We do push hands in class but only perodically, I'd so love to practice and delve into it more somehow

I can’t speak for others. I practice Yang long solo form, two man fighting set, and direct application. I don’t do much push hands per se, but direct application includes the same premise. IME Tai Chi Chuan is as varied as its practitioners, in both purposes and methods. Strong opinions abound in these regards. Find 10 Tai Chi instructors and you will find 10 people who cannot agree on what it is, what it’s for, how it’s done, or where it came from. Furthermore, even those who don’t practice or have only a few years of practice will have strong feelings about it. IMO the sort of extreme opinions you can see on MT sometimes are often the product of self delusion that comes from never actually pressure testing the martial aspects. I fully expect this post to be attacked as such. Wait for it…

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

I can’t speak for others. I practice Yang long solo form, two man fighting set, and direct application. I don’t do much push hands per se, but direct application includes the same premise. IME Tai Chi Chuan is as varied as its practitioners, in both purposes and methods. Strong opinions abound in these regards. Find 10 Tai Chi instructors and you will find 10 people who cannot agree on what it is, what it’s for, how it’s done, or where it came from. Furthermore, even those who don’t practice or have only a few years of practice will have strong feelings about it. IMO the sort of extreme opinions you can see on MT sometimes are often the product of self delusion that comes from never actually pressure testing the martial aspects. I fully expect this post to be attacked as such. Wait for it…

WELL!!! i don’t agree

Question to anyone really, would you say Taijiquan has certain foundational categories it focuses on as a system? Eg like a lot of karate training is based around kihon, kata and kumite (as a generalisation); obviously there are different systems of Taijiquan, but curious if there are distinctions of training categories (like forms, push hands etc) that make up taijiquan or whether it's more holistic or intuitively weaved together as such...

We do push hands in class but only perodically, I'd so love to practice and delve into it more somehow

It tends to be based in the long form, or forms, depending on style, which as time goes by you focus on less…. Sorry if I sound like a fortune cookie…. There is also the 10 essentials from Yang Chengfu

 

[QuantumKitty]

Question to anyone really, would you say Taijiquan has certain foundational categories it focuses on as a system? Eg like a lot of karate training is based around kihon, kata and kumite (as a generalisation); obviously there are different systems of Taijiquan, but curious if there are distinctions of training categories (like forms, push hands etc) that make up taijiquan or whether it's more holistic or intuitively weaved together as such...

We do push hands in class but only perodically, I'd so love to practice and delve into it more somehow

Generally, Taijiquan is known for Taolu (Forms) and Tuishou (Push Hands).

Other categories that most Taijiquan do not have and/or do not focus on is Sanshou (not to be confused with the sport: Sanda). This would include things like parry and strike.

With how Tuishou is often practiced, there's the luxury that you and your opponent are already in physical contact, but realistically, there's a skill set to go from no-contact to contact, which Sanshou covers.

At least with what I practice, there are a lot of applications from the form practice that can be applied to Tuishou practices (including patterned Tuishou), but I find this to be extremely rare on the internet. It's very rare to see Tuishou and Form being bridged together.

There are a lot of stuff that, personally, I just categorize it under Tuishou paradigm, but for others, they may either not have it or they do not categorize it under Tuishou. For example, leg sweeps, head control, trips, joint manipulation, joint locks, etc... I... would categorize that under "Tuishou", but for some people, they would disagree and insist that Tuishou is merely about flowing with a partner with very light touch and feeling each other without much objective.

If what I am saying isn't Tuishou, that's fine by me... I guess it's a superset of Tuishou then. All that would mean is that Tuishou is a little universe within a much bigger universe. For me, that "bigger universe" is just stuff you can do in a sustained physical contact paradigm.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

there's a skill set to go from no-contact to contact,

If your opponent's arms are moving the same direction as your arms are moving, the arm contact will never happen.

 

[isshinryuronin4 3]

There are a lot of stuff that, personally, I just categorize it under Tuishou paradigm, but for others, they may either not have it or they do not categorize it under Tuishou. For example, leg sweeps, head control, trips, joint manipulation, joint locks, etc... I... would categorize that under "Tuishou", but for some people, they would disagree and insist that Tuishou is merely about flowing with a partner with very light touch and feeling each other without much objective.

The way you describe "tuishou" seems much like Okinawan "kakie." The widespread practice of push hands in CMA involves arm-to-arm flowing, light contact. This is valuable sensitivity training to detect the opponent's intention. But you say it's more than that, bringing it into line with kakie.

In that light, I agree, but with the slight exception of you categorizing those other techniques (joint lock, sweeps, etc.) as part of tuishou. From the kakie viewpoint, those other techniques are not so much a part of it but do flow from it as natural extensions.

Whereas tuishou is popularly seen as a soft internal exercise, kakie is a lead-in to hard, very close-in offense. It is a springboard for actual attacks, including punching. There is an objective to it as you say. Kakie is also a little different from CMA push hands in that more pressure against the partner is used so there is a conditioning aspect to the exercise.

Don't know how to provide a link, but there's an excellent video if you search Kuro Obi World Kakie that shows everything we're talking about.

 

[Marsha Larts]

It's very rare to see Tuishou and Form being bridged together.

That's because it doesn't work.

Have to wonder what kind(s) of "pressure testing" has been done if the practice focuses on applications from the form as an approach to developing taiji boxing method. There might be a rare (accidental?) instance of it happening against a committed opponent In full-contact free-fighting.

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

With how Tuishou is often practiced, there's the luxury that you and your opponent are already in physical contact, but realistically, there's a skill set to go from no-contact to contact, which Sanshou covers.

Based on my training, if tuishou is already using physical contact, they are doing it wrong

At least with what I practice, there are a lot of applications from the form practice that can be applied to Tuishou practices (including patterned Tuishou), but I find this to be extremely rare on the internet. It's very rare to see Tuishou and Form being bridged together.

Tuishou is a series of forms from the other forms, put together

Tuishou is merely about flowing with a partner with very light touch and feeling each other without much objective.

I don't disagree with you, as a matter of fact if that is what people think tuishou is about, they are wrong

If what I am saying isn't Tuishou, that's fine by me... I guess it's a superset of Tuishou then. All that would mean is that Tuishou is a little universe within a much bigger universe. For me, that "bigger universe" is just stuff you can do in a sustained physical contact paradigm.

Tuishou is actually a more advanced form and does have physical contact, see my response below

That's because it doesn't work.

Have to wonder what kind(s) of "pressure testing" has been done if the practice focuses on applications from the form as an approach to developing taiji boxing method. In full-contact free-fighting, there might be a rare (accidental?) instance of it happening against a committed opponent, but it would be extremely low-percentage.

Understand most people train taijiquan wrong, if you are training the martial arts of it, and even more train Tuishou wrong. Tuishou starts slow, with light contact, but as you advance it gets faster and harder with heavier contact, it will get up to combat speed, Yes it is a choreographed fight, but it is suppose to be training reflexes to attacks. But it is not supposed done until after you have done forms and push hands. Push hands should also be trained stationary, 3 step, for corners, and freestyle

 

[windwalker099114 144]

@ Xue Sheng

Is this view reflective of the Tung/Dong line, the training order very structured — form, push hands, then applications?
Or is it more from your own experience?

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

@ Xue Sheng

Is this view reflective of the Tung/Dong line, the training order very structured — form, push hands, then applications?
Or is it more from your own experience?

My shifu was not very structured, but we discuss applying some structure, he did seem to have an order of what to teach when ..... He did want you to know long form before he moved on to starting push hands. But he did teach push hands in this order; stationary, 3 step, 4 corner and free style. However we did do some tuishou, but he was not big on it, to him it was just form.. He preferred to do things through free style push hands.

the rest is from my experience training with other teachers.

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 10]

WELL!!! i don’t agree


It tends to be based in the long form, or forms, depending on style, which as time goes by you focus on less…. Sorry if I sound like a fortune cookie…. There is also the 10 essentials from Yang Chengfu

My Sigung said Yang Chengfu was just a fat man that pushed his students around, negatively changed the form, and lived off the laurels of his predecessors. So there!

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 10]

The way you describe "tuishou" seems much like Okinawan "kakie." The widespread practice of push hands in CMA involves arm-to-arm flowing, light contact. This is valuable sensitivity training to detect the opponent's intention. But you say it's more than that, bringing it into line with kakie.

In that light, I agree, but with the slight exception of you categorizing those other techniques (joint lock, sweeps, etc.) as part of tuishou. From the kakie viewpoint, those other techniques are not so much a part of it but do flow from it as natural extensions.

Whereas tuishou is popularly seen as a soft internal exercise, kakie is a lead-in to hard, very close-in offense. It is a springboard for actual attacks, including punching. There is an objective to it as you say. Kakie is also a little different from CMA push hands in that more pressure against the partner is used so there is a conditioning aspect to the exercise.

Don't know how to provide a link, but there's an excellent video if you search Kuro Obi World Kakie that shows everything we're talking about.

Chin na, strikes, kicks, pokes etc are all opportunities that are present in sanshou.

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 10]

@ Xue Sheng

Is this view reflective of the Tung/Dong line, the training order very structured — form, push hands, then applications?
Or is it more from your own experience?

It is how Yang Jwing Ming taught it for quite some time. In Wing Woo Gar, only the solo Yang Long form was taught to most students, only some were taught application.

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

My Sigung said Yang Chengfu was just a fat man that pushed his students around, negatively changed the form, and lived off the laurels of his predecessors. So there!

Well them thar is fighten words….