A matter of perspective - taijiquan

[isshinryuronin4 3]

never mention self-cultivation, inner peace, culture study, ...

I think the point being to focus on combat and don't chase incidentals. I agree with the thought. It's TMA, traditional martial arts, not TPA, traditional philosophical arts, or any other letter you put in the middle. This is the hard-core view of MA.

Yet, these other things often naturally flow from training the "martial" aspects of the art, inherent benefits if you will. I see these other elements as "bonus gifts" TMA provides (depending on the teaching methodology). I see no reason to reject these "freebies."

But when the martial aspects are sacrificed to stress these side benefits, I think the art suffers in the long run. IMO, this has happened to some CMA to a certain extent when the combat aspect was warped to adhere with Taoist philosophical worldview. And using karate merely as a vehicle for the development of "do." or TKD being adapted as sport.

Not than any of these are bad. I think they're good but should be secondary to the martial and not the main reason for study. Thru what I believe is proper training these bonus gifts will come on their own; no need to actively seek them. This is how I view TMA. For others who find TMA an enjoyable vehicle to achieve inner peace and self-cultivation as their main priority, I support them. There are those who use pure combat TMA for reasons not so altruistic.

 

[Marsha Larts]

I think the point being to focus on combat and don't chase incidentals. I agree with the thought. It's TMA, traditional martial arts, not TPA, traditional philosophical arts, or any other letter you put in the middle. This is the hard-core view of MA.

Yet, these other things often naturally flow from training the "martial" aspects of the art, inherent benefits if you will. I see these other elements as "bonus gifts" TMA provides (depending on the teaching methodology). I see no reason to reject these "freebies."

But when the martial aspects are sacrificed to stress these side benefits, I think the art suffers in the long run. IMO, this has happened to some CMA to a certain extent when the combat aspect was warped to adhere with Taoist philosophical worldview. And using karate merely as a vehicle for the development of "do." or TKD being adapted as sport.

Not than any of these are bad. I think they're good but should be secondary to the martial and not the main reason for study. Thru what I believe is proper training these bonus gifts will come on their own; no need to actively seek them. This is how I view TMA. For others who find TMA an enjoyable vehicle to achieve inner peace and self-cultivation as their main priority, I support them. There are those who use pure combat TMA for reasons not so altruistic.

There are particular aspects of self cultivation that comprise the core of IMA. Those aspects don't arise or manifest out of the blue as a "side benefit" or some unexpected 'incidental' of the training.

The various methods of cultivation of the internal self are specific and exacting in their detail. Those cultivation practices which are peculiar to the various family styles are what make Taijiquan what it is/was. Without those practices, it isn't Taijiquan.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

There are particular aspects of self cultivation that comprise the core of IMA. Those aspects don't arise or manifest out of the blue as a "side benefit" or some unexpected 'incidental' of the training.

The various methods of cultivation of the internal self are specific and exacting in their detail. Those cultivation practices which are peculiar to the various family styles are what make Taijiquan what it is/was. Without those practices, it isn't Taijiquan.

Self-cultivation can be:

“吾日三省吾身：为人谋而不忠乎？与朋友交而不信乎？传不习乎？”
“Each day, I examine myself on three points: Have I been disloyal in serving others? Have I been untrustworthy in my dealings with friends? Have I failed to practice what I’ve been taught?”

My first Taiji teacher when I was 7 was a Buddhism monk. One day I saw him ate a turtle, I lost respect on him (I assume a Buddhism monk should not eat meat). One night he stayed in my parent's house. He tried to kiss me (He was a guy and I was a 7 years old boy). I lost respect to all Buddhism monk who trained Taiji (My Chang Taiji teacher was a Muslim). I didn't see any "self-cultivation" from my first Taiji teacher.

IMO, if one has to do "self-cultivation", there is something wrong about him in the first place.

 

[isshinryuronin4 3]

There are particular aspects of self cultivation that comprise the core of IMA.

The various methods of cultivation of the internal self are specific and exacting in their detail. Those cultivation practices which are peculiar to the various family styles are what make Taijiquan what it is/was.

This may be true in some internal arts/taijiquan. My perspective is from an Okinawan karate view. Although it is rooted in CMA, the Okinawan masters who studied in China (or from Chinese living in Okinawa) did not infuse their art with much of the philosophical, self-cultivation aspects. Many of those early masters were not Buddhist monks or Daoist priests (or followers of those belief systems) or otherwise too metaphysically inclined; they were professional warriors, and their interests were pragmatic combat/self-defense. Karate and CMA developed in different cultures, each with its own priorities and identity.

Those aspects don't arise or manifest out of the blue as a "side benefit" or some unexpected 'incidental' of the training.

I believe they do. It's not "our of the blue" but the result of austere training and a dedicated journey towards mastering the art. This, and the combat mental attitude forged, body awareness, respect, perception, confidence thru sparring, and many other elements combine and give rise to some of the aspects we're talking about.

To illustrate: A certain drug may be designed in "exacting...detail...cultivated" to treat a particular disease. But it turns out it also helps the patient lose weight. The drug was not designed to do this, nor was it the reason for taking it. Many would consider this a beneficial "side benefit." Did this arise out of the blue? No. It is the result of the nature of the drug, itself, that when taken gives rise to this additional effect. Just as TMA was not designed for self-cultivation, but self-defense. However, by proper training, one gets such a benefit without seeking it.

This and my previous post are the best I can explain it and what I have experienced over the six decades I've been involved in TMA.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Self-cultivation can be:

“吾日三省吾身：为人谋而不忠乎？与朋友交而不信乎？传不习乎？”
“Each day, I examine myself on three points: Have I been disloyal in serving others? Have I been untrustworthy in my dealings with friends? Have I failed to practice what I’ve been taught?”

My first Taiji teacher when I was 7 was a Buddhism monk. One day I saw him ate a turtle, I lost respect on him (I assume a Buddhism monk should not eat meat). One night he stayed in my parent's house. He tried to kiss me (He was a guy and I was a 7 years old boy). I lost respect to all Buddhism monk who trained Taiji. I didn't see any "self-cultivation" from my first Taiji teacher. All my life, I tried to stay away from those "self-cultivated" people. IMO, if one has to "self-cultivate", there is something wrong about him in the first place.

That's an unfortunate experience and one that would sour me as well.

You edited your reply as I was writing mine.

You said, in your opinion, there's something wrong with a person who practices self cultivation. You knock a lot of people out of the boat when you swing that oar.

Anyway, I'm not referring to anything having to do with religion, philosophy or metaphysics. I'm talking about the cultivation practices that address the body method and the specific, exacting details which guide that cultivation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

I'm talking about the cultivation practices that address the body method and the specific, exacting details which guide that cultivation.

What's your definition of "self-cultivation"? Assume you throw 1000 punches and 200 kicks daily, what does that have to do with "self-cultivation"?

 

[Marsha Larts]

Assume you throw 1000 punches and 200 kicks daily, what does that have to do with "self-cultivation"?

From my perspective, nothing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

From my perspective, nothing.

So, what kind of MA training can be considered as "self-cultivation"?

Is he doing "self-cultivation" (this is one of my favor drills)? If the answer is yes, why? If the answer is no, also why?

 

[Appledog50 3]

So, what kind of MA training can be considered as "self-cultivation"?

Is he doing "self-cultivation" (this is one of my favor drills)? If the answer is yes, why? If the answer is no, also why?

Oh wow, that looks like part of our snake form! Do you know who that is in the video?

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Oh wow, that looks like part of our snake form! Do you know who that is in the video?

I don't know who he is. He is a Bague guy. I love to collect "solo drill" from all MA system. When I walk on the beach, I like to rotate my body like this. I believe this training can enhance my balance during old age.

Here is another drill of his. I like this kind of left and right training drill. Is this kind of video nice? Silent video with only technique (no words).

 

[Marsha Larts]

So, what kind of MA training can be considered as "self-cultivation"?

It begins with standing still and listening to the body as it applies its own maximal strain toward affecting a specific aspect of movement. If you can do that, you're practicing self-cultivation whether you like it or not.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

It begins with standing still and listening to the body as it applies its own maximal strain toward affecting a specific aspect of movement. If you can do that, you're practicing self-cultivation whether you like it or not.

Are you only talking about "static posture" training?

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 10]

It begins with standing still and listening to the body as it applies its own maximal strain toward affecting a specific aspect of movement. If you can do that, you're practicing self-cultivation whether you like it or not.

So, then it is a side effect of the practice, or the reason for the practice?

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 10]

This may be true in some internal arts/taijiquan. My perspective is from an Okinawan karate view. Although it is rooted in CMA, the Okinawan masters who studied in China (or from Chinese living in Okinawa) did not infuse their art with much of the philosophical, self-cultivation aspects. Many of those early masters were not Buddhist monks or Daoist priests (or followers of those belief systems) or otherwise too metaphysically inclined; they were professional warriors, and their interests were pragmatic combat/self-defense. Karate and CMA developed in different cultures, each with its own priorities and identity.

I believe they do. It's not "our of the blue" but the result of austere training and a dedicated journey towards mastering the art. This, and the combat mental attitude forged, body awareness, respect, perception, confidence thru sparring, and many other elements combine and give rise to some of the aspects we're talking about.

To illustrate: A certain drug may be designed in "exacting...detail...cultivated" to treat a particular disease. But it turns out it also helps the patient lose weight. The drug was not designed to do this, nor was it the reason for taking it. Many would consider this a beneficial "side benefit." Did this arise out of the blue? No. It is the result of the nature of the drug, itself, that when taken gives rise to this additional effect. Just as TMA was not designed for self-cultivation, but self-defense. However, by proper training, one gets such a benefit without seeking it.

This and my previous post are the best I can explain it and what I have experienced over the six decades I've been involved in TMA.

There were many “ epiphany” moments in my training. Although I may have been surprised to find certain things at certain times, my Sifu expected these changes to occur. How and when people discover these things has something to do with their focus and drive to improve, but also personality and natural ability. Having multiple training brothers that took the journey with me for 28 years has given me some additional perspectives to compare with my own. Some of these discoveries were made because I strived to understand what someone else described to me, others, I found in myself on my own, true epiphany. In the latter cases, it was sudden light bulb moments that only occurred because of the training methodology and the guidance of my Sifu.

 

[windwalker099114 144]

Anyway, I'm not referring to anything having to do with religion, philosophy or metaphysics. I'm talking about the cultivation practices that address the body method and the specific, exacting details which guide that cultivation.

Agree.


In some systems, like Tibetan White Crane, the cultivation includes a very different mindset.


One of its four tenets is Chan (殘, cán) — Ruthlessness:

“When eliminating weeds, one must do a conscientious job in fulfilling one’s duty. When shooting a tiger, one must kill it.
If weeds are not cleared properly, they’ll grow back. If a tiger is only wounded, it may return to bite you.”

It’s built into the system, informs it's practice.


In my own training, the focus is on:


空 (kōng) – Emptiness
Not absence, but open potential.
In Taiji, kōng means remaining unoccupied, offering no resistance—yet being fully aware.
Emptiness allows force to be received without clash, and movement to arise without being forced.
When you are empty, nothing sticks—and everything moves.


The hardest part of the training is shifting the mindset — first to understand that without it, nothing else works.
The method itself is built around this aspect.

In many Taiji threads, especially those emphasizing fajin, the approach isn’t much different from other CMA — the mindset behind it does not allow for what is done with the practices that foucs on "emptiness"

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 10]

Agree.


In some systems, like Tibetan White Crane, the cultivation includes a very different mindset.


One of its four tenets is Chan (殘, cán) — Ruthlessness:




It’s built into the system, informs it's practice.


In my own training, the focus is on:


空 (kōng) – Emptiness
Not absence, but open potential.
In Taiji, kōng means remaining unoccupied, offering no resistance—yet being fully aware.
Emptiness allows force to be received without clash, and movement to arise without being forced.
When you are empty, nothing sticks—and everything moves.


The hardest part of the training is shifting the mindset — first to understand that without it, nothing else works.
The method itself is built around this aspect.

In many Taiji threads, especially those emphasizing fajin, the approach isn’t much different from other CMA — the mindset behind it does not allow for what is done with the practices that foucs on "emptiness"

My Sifu said “Cradle the fish, don’t squeeze it.”

 

[isshinryuronin4 3]

I said:

by proper training, one gets such a benefit without seeking it.

You said:

you're practicing self-cultivation whether you like it or not.

The quotes seem similar. We differ in that I see TMA as primarily self-defense, rather than self-development. But it is true one may start with one only to discover the other and change priorities.

 

[Marsha Larts]

(Chang said "Yang Taiji has no leg").

Some Chi Gerk and foot tag would go a long way in clearing that up.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Are you only talking about "static posture" training?

No
Static posture training as shown in the 2 photos you posted has the posture in the top photo serving as a model of outward form that the person in the bottom photo is emulating as copy machine.

'Dynamic posture training' is opposite to that.

 

[Marsha Larts]

The quotes seem similar. We differ in that I see TMA as primarily self-defense, rather than self-development. But it is true one may start with one only to discover the other and change priorities.

Not really

You've removed the substance and context from what I actually said to loosely deem the two statements as being similar.

It seems as though you're ignoring what I wrote earlier about a particular method of self-cultivation being the means with which Taijiquan is practiced as an internal martial art.