A Lesson From 9/11

[Big Don]

A Lesson From 9/11

September 10, 2010

By CHARLES M. BLOW The New York Times

EXCERPT:

Nine years ago today, we saw the world stand still. We saw the innocence of a nation crumble to the ground. We saw the face of evil form in plumes of smoke and ash. It was Sept. 11, 2001.
I heard a thousand gasps of a thousand people standing stock still in the normally bustling Times Square as they watched the second plane hit the second tower on a JumboTron in Times Square.
I saw images of small figures that looked liked birds outside the towers. Only they weren’t birds, they were people, forced out by the flames, forced to make an impossible choice under impossible circumstances.
We all watched the towers collapse, completely, falling from the skies above into a cloud below — horrific and awesome, breathtaking and unbelievable.
I felt myself grow numb, but I refused to be afraid. My attitude that day was the same as most Americans: the terrorists must not be allowed to win. America would not be cowed. We would rise, our greatness would shine, and our ideas of freedom would remain a beacon to the world.
That is why the debate these past few weeks over Islam in America — from the proposed Islamic community center in Lower Manhattan to talk of the burning of Korans — has been so hard to watch. Too much of the debate seems to be centered around the sensitivities of terrorists a world away who have hijacked the passions of a faith, who would see us destroyed and who want to attract more damaged souls to their cause.
I understand, in theory, the idea of not stirring the hornet’s nest while our troops are still in harm’s way. But I chafe at the idea that great American debates, in all their ugliness and splendor, should be tempered for terrorists and their attempts to recruit.
<<<SNIP>>> Free expressions are not always pleasant, but they must ever be protected, with no regard to the proclivities of the enemy.
END EXCERPT
I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Bruno@MT]

It seems to be a misunderstanding that terrorists hate you for your freedom. That's not true. They generally hate you because for the last 5 decades or so, you have been destabilizing the entire region, overthrowing their democratically elected governments for your national interests and treating them as inferior. Because of that, the entire region is filled with people holding grudges, and a handful of extremists are exploiting that sentiment to get those people to attack the US. Islam is a vehicle used by the extremists to channel that hatred.

I am not advocating that the US pander to the sensitivities of the terrorists, but it might be worthwhile to reflect on the real reasons that the US is hated so much. There is no need to needlessly piss off a billion and a half of people, and if you make a policy of invading or destabilizing countries when it seems fit, killing hundreds of thousands in the process and ending up with extremist regimes because of it... it will come back to haunt you.

Perhaps it helps to think about what YOU would do if some large powerful country had done to the US what the US has been doing to the middle east.
Would you turn the other cheek?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't think we should refrain from showing disrespect because of terrorism, we should refrain because its direspectfull.
Sean

 

[Bruno@MT]

i don't think we should refrain from showing disrespect because of terrorism, we should refrain because its direspectfull.
Sean

+1

 

[seasoned]

We are not as a nation suppose to blame many for the actions of a few. In turn, why is all of the US being blamed for, as mentioned, our actions all over the world. We as a people try every 2-4 years to remedy any injustice. We in the US as individuals are allowed to pick and choose our life's course whether good or bad, it is our choice and we are held accountable for it. This is freedom, and what we as a nation are indeed hated for. But still the masses come here to taste that same freedom that we are disdained for.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I understand, in theory, the idea of not stirring the hornet’s nest while our troops are still in harm’s way. But I chafe at the idea that great American debates, in all their ugliness and splendor, should be tempered for terrorists and their attempts to recruit.

Debates? I agree. I don't call stabbing a taxi driver a debate. Not burning a Mosque, or driving by firing shotguns in the air near one. Nor burning Korans. In what way are these things 'debate'?

<<<SNIP>>> Free expressions are not always pleasant, but they must ever be protected, with no regard to the proclivities of the enemy.
END EXCERPT

Free expression must of course always be protected. Conflating that with choosing NOT to do things which are not only counterproductive, but which may end up with our own citizens being killed overseas where they are serving in our military is rather ugly.

But it is typical. If one is taking into account that actions have consequences, one is molly-coddling the enemy or kissing their asses. Despicable.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I agree that civil rights must always be protected, and that voluntarily surrendering them in hopes of gaining favor from the enemy is not to be done.

I disagree that burning Korans or otherwise intentionally provoking a response so that one can say "See how terrible Muslims are?" is the same thing. Protected speech? Yes. Stupid in the extreme? Also yes.

 

[CanuckMA]

We are not as a nation suppose to blame many for the actions of a few. In turn, why is all of the US being blamed for, as mentioned, our actions all over the world. We as a people try every 2-4 years to remedy any injustice. We in the US as individuals are allowed to pick and choose our life's course whether good or bad, it is our choice and we are held accountable for it. This is freedom, and what we as a nation are indeed hated for. But still the masses come here to taste that same freedom that we are disdained for.

Because US foreign policy is the official policy of the entire nation. That's why the entire country gets blamed. You are not hated for freedom, but for the imposition of your ideas and the installation and support of govornments that are favourable to you.

You can't blame all Muslims for the acts of the terrorists because the terrorists are not acting for all Muslims. But as you say, every 2-4 years the population of the US has the opportunity to change government, and policy. When said policy does not change, it can be seen as the nation not wanting that change.

You can't impose democracy in countries that don't want it. A frequent argument around here, when talking about things like healthcare or airport security, is that solutions that work somewhere else won't work in the US. How is it so hard to make the connection that your form of government won't work somewhere else as wel?

 

[seasoned]

Because US foreign policy is the official policy of the entire nation. That's why the entire country gets blamed. You are not hated for freedom, but for the imposition of your ideas and the installation and support of govornments that are favourable to you.

Address below.

You can't blame all Muslims for the acts of the terrorists because the terrorists are not acting for all Muslims. But as you say, every 2-4 years the population of the US has the opportunity to change government, and policy. When said policy does not change, it can be seen as the nation not wanting that change.

Granted it can be seen that way, but the circles I run in don't paint with that broad a brush.

You can't impose democracy in countries that don't want it. A frequent argument around here, when talking about things like healthcare or airport security, is that solutions that work somewhere else won't work in the US. How is it so hard to make the connection that your form of government won't work somewhere else as wel?

The US is still the most sought after country to live in, that is why thousands flock here daily to gain access. It's not a new thing, so I don't think it is because of our current government policies of change for the, better??


The problem is lethargy on the part of the American people. With only 40% of the population involved in the voting process, it leaves a lot to interpretation by other countries. There in lies the problem. There are a few dictating to the many, but I feel that change is in the air. There is a silent majority that is trying to be heard, things take time, and my hope is that things will get better for all, before it is too late.

 

[CanuckMA]

The US is still the most sought after country to live in, that is why thousands flock here daily to gain access. It's not a new thing, so I don't think it is because of our current government policies of change for the, better??

Sure it's a good country, and lots of poeple want to move there.

But it's not the same as believing that your way of life needs to be imposed on all others.

 

[Ken Morgan]

OMG.

Where did this notion of “they hate our freedom” come from? Whoever came up with it obviously had no education or training in the political sciences, foreign policy or strategic studies. The terrorists don’t give a crap about the West. The West is a means to an end for the leaders of the terrorist cells around the world.

The religious nuts in the Middle East can only and have ever only attained maybe 10 -15% support in their home countries. After Iran became an Islamic Republic 30 years ago, they figured every other country in the region would follow suit, topple like dominoes, it never happened.

So how do you increase your support at home? You need a common enemy, someone you can blame all your problems on, the Nazi’s had the Jews, the Fundamental Muslims have the West, specifically the US. How do you get the West to hit you, kill civilians, women, children, goat herders, ruin your countries infrastructure? You attack them, you bomb them, then you wait till the west launches a military strike against you, and wow, you were right and your popularity just went up to 20-25%. The ignorant guys on the front line are canon fodder; they believe all the nonsense that is taught to them.

The Leadership of the terrorist organizations want power in their home countries, and they will do whatever is necessary, to achieve those ends.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sure it's a good country, and lots of poeple want to move there.

But it's not the same as believing that your way of life needs to be imposed on all others.

I don't think that the USA has an agenda of imposing our way of life on other countries. Yes, we did have the stated agenda of 'spreading democracy' but I do not think that is our prime motivator.

Our primary motivator is business. It always has been. We act in the best interest of our nation and the business of our nation (which are often seen as the same thing).

Frankly, we don't care if we're doing business with cannibals or dictators or junta leaders or strongmen or politburo apparatchiks or princes, potentates, or the leaders of various religions. We DO NOT CARE. We do care that their markets are open to us. We do care that they do not outcompete our businesses inside our internal markets. We do care that they not nationalize, take over, or otherwise harass our companies with branches or manufacturing in their country. We always seek favorable terms, terms to our own advantage. We'll take advantage ourselves if we can get away with it. With the small exceptions of public outrage at this junta leader or that cannibal with filed teeth who eats his cabinet ministers from time to time, we'll do business with anybody.

What that means is that we seek stability, fairness (as we see it), and reciprocity. Mostly in the name of our national interest, which is to say, 'business'. To that end, we have done questionable things in the Middle East (and other places around the world). We have toppled government covertly and installed our own puppets (by the way, if anyone disagrees with that, please by all means speak up). We have bullied, cajoled, and bribed.

And by the way, I don't care that we have done those things.

EXCEPT FOR THIS...

In the Middle East, more than in other regions, our influx has been noted and resented. When we treat with governments to give us preferential treatment and they do, they earn the enmity of their own people, especially when those people have a strong belief in a theocracy in a land that is not currently a theocracy.

In addition, those same malcontents see the influx of Western goods and more importantly, Western values into their countries, and they see this not just as an insult, but as an attack. The fact that the USA builds McDonalds in Saudi Arabia, sells blue jeans in the shops, and MTV blares from the television sets is an actual, literal, attack to them. Especially as their own populace becomes attuned to these things, used to them, and begins to desire them. The kids want to dance, form rock-and-roll bands, rebel against authority, have sex, not wear special garb and be free to say what they want and to think what they want and to worship as they wish.

This is what the terrorists hate. Not 'our freedom', that is a nebulous thing. They hate what our freedom is doing to their culture.

This is not the culture overlap of France versus Britain versus Poland versus Germany. Those cultures, while different, are all on the same playing field, more or less. This is the clash of cultures across a distance of several hundred years. This is MTV versus the Islamic equivalent of Gregorian chanting. Get it?

Those of us who remember back to before the 1970's and early 1980's remember that the Middle East was acclimating to the West very rapidly. There were news stories about the nightclubs of Egypt, the dance halls in Jordan, the restored 'Hanging Gardens of Babylon' in Iraq (yes, under Hussein, Iraq was becoming a tourist destination, prior to the Iran/Iraq war). Then we had the overthrow of the Shaw (US puppet) in Iran, the Iran/Iraq war, the PLO and Yassir Arafat, and finally, the US involvement in building military basis in Saudi Arabia and Yemen and other locations in the Middle East. All of these things were destabilizers, and they gave power to the noisy little Imams and problem-children of Islam who wanted Islam to be the actual political as well as religious power, and for whom Westernization was just the same as Satanization.

Now you have a massive battle for the hearts and minds of Muslims, primarily still in the Middle East, but also in places where we did not have problems before, such as parts of Africa (Somalia), the UK, Europe, The Netherlands, and the USA. Muslims are being spoken to by those who are holding up the imminent destruction of Islam as the evil that is happening to the Middle East. We see a war on terror; they are trying to sell it as a war on Islam. As long as the average Muslim sees the USA as a force that is attempting to root out terrorists, they remain on our side. When they become convinced that even though we SAY we're out to get terrorists, we're actually out to get Islam itself, then they tend to side with the terrorists.

So, it is important to sell our message. The terrorists are selling theirs.

And to say that there is no good reason NOT to burn Korans or stop the building of Mosques or protest against Muslims is stupid. STUPID. It hands the terrorists ammunition to sell to the average Muslim, something they can point to and say "Look, America says it hates terrorists, but you know what it really hates? You."

Do we have the right to be asshats of the first order? Sure. How stupid can we be? I'm not sure. We haven't really plumbed the depth of stupidity here, but the line is getting pretty deep.

 

[elder999]

OMG.

Where did this notion of “they hate our freedom” come from? Whoever came up with it obviously had no education or training in the political sciences, foreign policy or strategic studies. .

:lfao:

[yt]p6HOcLWP-Ls[/yt]

[yt]HSFQNS39fMc[/yt]

:lfao:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

OMG.

Where did this notion of &#8220;they hate our freedom&#8221; come from? Whoever came up with it obviously had no education or training in the political sciences, foreign policy or strategic studies. The terrorists don&#8217;t give a crap about the West. The West is a means to an end for the leaders of the terrorist cells around the world.

Oh, they care about the West, all right. They care because it is Western culture that is their enemy. We sell cheeseburgers and blue jeans in Iraq and Egypt and Saudi Arabia. That's your enemy, right there.

Imagine if China, rather than exporting goods and services to the USA that match our culture, instead was selling Chinese culture on a scale that matched our dominance of sales channels into the Middle East. Let's say they sold traditional Chinese attire and music and language and even culture and it was red-hot with the kids. All the kids wanted to be Chinese, to dress, act, and talk like Chinese. The TV shows were all about China and Chinese people, the music on the radio was all Chinese, you couldn't get away from it. And most of the populace was just eating it up and demanding more.

Now, let's say you're a guy from a small town in the mid-west, and you hate all this stuff. You don't mind maybe a little Chinese take-out from time to time, but no way are you going to trade in your blue jeans for a Mao suit or lean Chinese or start singing Chinese songs, and every time you turn on the TV, you get Chinese opera instead of Beverly Hills 90210.

Do you think you might feel just the tiny bit invaded? Like maybe your culture was vanishing right before your eyes?

Now imagine that you're really, really, religious, and your religion condemns all these things. And a few decades ago, nearly everyone was just like you religiously speaking. And now they're casting their religion by the wayside, or watering it down so that they can still call themselves your religion but still adopt Chinese culture left right and center.

THINK YOU MIGHT FEEL ATTACKED?

That is what's happening. They don't hate the West, per se, but they hate what the West represents, and they hate the intrusion by Western culture into their culture. They hate their national, cultural, and religious identity being discarded by their fellow Muslims and their fellow citizens. And it is stirring some of them to act.

Please note (as an aside to the ah-hah brigade) that I do not condone the terrorists for feeling this way; I am not making excuses for them. But the first rule of war is to understand your enemy. It is important to know what motivates them. This is what motivates them, right or wrong.

The religious nuts in the Middle East can only and have ever only attained maybe 10 -15% support in their home countries. After Iran became an Islamic Republic 30 years ago, they figured every other country in the region would follow suit, topple like dominoes, it never happened.

It was a combination of things, a perfect storm. Iran being toppled was one thing. The rise of the PLO was another. The Iran/Iraq war was yet another. The US building military bases in countries like Saudi Arabia and Yemen was another. The thing that prodded them to action was Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait and the US response to it - and perhaps more importantly, the response of the largely Islamic nations to that event.

So how do you increase your support at home? You need a common enemy, someone you can blame all your problems on, the Nazi&#8217;s had the Jews, the Fundamental Muslims have the West, specifically the US. How do you get the West to hit you, kill civilians, women, children, goat herders, ruin your countries infrastructure? You attack them, you bomb them, then you wait till the west launches a military strike against you, and wow, you were right and your popularity just went up to 20-25%. The ignorant guys on the front line are canon fodder; they believe all the nonsense that is taught to them.

True to a certain extent. But they also have to convince their populace that the USA doesn't want to sell them MTV and blue jeans, but to kill them. To to this, they engage in propaganda wars that play on OUR fears, that the Muslims all want to kill us, and then record and play back the responses of the fear-driven bigots amongst us.

The Leadership of the terrorist organizations want power in their home countries, and they will do whatever is necessary, to achieve those ends.

It is not simply power they want. I seriously doubt that OBL wants to be a Caliph. He wants the West to stop having any impact on Islamic culture, and he wants Islamic rule (their version of Sharia) in every Muslim country. I'm sure some of them want world domination, but initially what they want is the West out of the Middle East.

That is not going to happen. Not now, not ever. Which means that we must complete the business of Westernizing the Middle East. I'm not talking about exporting democracy, nobody gives two craps about democracy. I'm talking about building stores, establishing lines of credit, turning the average every day Muslim in the Middle East into a consumer of western culture and a variety of the sort of crap that we buy. Toothpaste, prayer rugs, color TVs, a car and a house with a mortgage.

This cuts the legs out from under radical Islam. This prevents the establishment of Caliphates that dictate how long a man's beard can be or what a woman has to wear over her whole body when she goes out. Get Eminem and Fifty Cent on TV teaching the kids to curse and dance and the battle is won.

The terrorists do not hate Americans in general. They hate everything we represent, because the coming of our culture is the ending of their own. Of course they hate it. Of course they are going to fight it. And we must crush them.

But we don't win by stopping the building of Mosques and burning Korans in the USA. We stop it by embracing our Muslim immigrants, and enveloping them in our culture as quickly as possible. A Muslim (like a Christian or a Jew) who has a job, a mortgage, bills to pay and braces to put on the kids teeth, not to mention a college education to foot the bill for, is NOT GOING TO BE A TERRORIST. He's a taxpayer. He's a consumer. In short, a sorry-*** American SOB just like the rest of us. I don't care how he prays, I care that he buys a new car every six years and has a house payment.

Estrange them instead of embracing them, and you give them nothing to hold onto in our nation. They find themselves unable to succeed in our culture, which leaves nothing but (TADA) their own culture. And the terrorists will gladly embrace them and welcome them back to the (from our point of view) Stone Age. And give them an AK at the same time.

 

[seasoned]

You guys are a hard act to follow, I'm sure someone will, ain't going to be me.

I think it's popcorn time.

 

[Makalakumu]

Time to check your premises. US foreign and domestic policy needed a "9/11" in order to introduce some of its more extreme measures. People had the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, both wars and possibly a third in the works, long before 9/11/2001.

Also, 9/11/1973 is the date that the CIA backed Pinochet in an overthrow democratically elected and popular Chilean Government. There is nothing particularly striking about the coincidence because this policy had already become part and parcel of the "black" US foreign policy.

What is striking and I think an "alternative" lesson one can draw from both 9/11's is that our government proved that it cared nothing for democracy, or human rights, or any of its vaunted values. It proved itself a tool of the ruthless international interests who simply will do anything they want in order to advance their own agendas.

Anything they want.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What is striking and I think an "alternative" lesson one can draw from both 9/11's is that our government proved that it cared nothing for democracy, or human rights, or any of its vaunted values. It proved itself a tool of the ruthless international interests who simply will do anything they want in order to advance their own agendas.

Anything they want.

Yeah, that's true. And I don't care at all. What I do care about is when our actions overseas have repercussions against US citizens. I care about what we do that affects us. I don't care about what we do that affects others. Governments act in their own self-interest; all of them. We just have the biggest stick (and still do to some extent). That means we get to call the shots. However, if we're stupid about it, we end up with this mess we're in now.

The culture war in the Middle East is unavoidable at this point. We must win it. Failure is not really an option. It is not possible for the two cultures to brush up against each other at this point. Either all of Islam becomes as moderate as most of it is, of the extreme edges of it must be removed.

 

[Archangel M]

IMO Bill's got it.

All this "the US topples gvts..the US made policy decisions that made people hate us..." etc....thats the nature of international politics. Name any "major player" on the world stage throughout human history that hasn't played by the same rules. Our politicians SHOULD be acting in my countries best interest. However they should be acting with enough foresight to make wise decisions.

 

[MA-Caver]

Excellent discourses one and all... yet I'd like to take this snippet and relate a conversation that took place where I work between myself and another who was of like-mind of the snip...

<<<SNIP>>> Free expressions are not always pleasant, but they must ever be protected, with no regard to the proclivities of the enemy.

He was also expounding upon the freedom of speech. He disagreed with the idea of burning the Korans and etc. but said the man (and his supposed like-minded congregation) had the right to do it.

I told him that I agree however... maybe they have the RIGHT to say it... but is it the RIGHT thing to say?

Just what is right and what is wrong? Agreed that the long range harm to not only U.S. troops but to American citizens in general (which these people -- sadly-- represent, albeit a tiny, hopefully tiny fraction of the populace).

Terrorists as I understand them follow a mandate given to them by either their God or a charismatic leader who has a personal vendetta against whomever they're attacking... remember we're still relatively new targets to the list of peoples that terrorists wish to harm.
What their reasons are I think aren't that important, because we're not going to change if that is why they're attacking/hating us... no more will they change irregardless of how many we kill.
Not stirring up the "hornet's nest" does seem like the safer out but I think it only postpones the inevitable. They will attempt to strike again and very well may have already tried a number of times. We do not know for certain how many sleeper cells have been busted up/captured since 9/11. We do not know how many planned attacks have been thwarted since the Dept. Of Homeland Security has been created and working in tandem with the FBI and other law enforcement agencies. To announce it each time would either force other sleeper cells to go deeper into hiding or prematurely launch their planned attacks to avoid being caught.

Either way, lesson learned was not to be so vulnerable, but a further lesson learned later was not to knee-jerk reaction and start taking away freedoms and dozens of other things we take for granted in the U.S.
A better method of protecting the citizenry of this country needs to be implemented and a more broader search for terrorist cells needs to be conducted instead of focusing on one country at a time.
Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda has been laughing at us for 9 years now.

 

[Makalakumu]

The culture war in the Middle East is unavoidable at this point. We must win it. Failure is not really an option. It is not possible for the two cultures to brush up against each other at this point. Either all of Islam becomes as moderate as most of it is, of the extreme edges of it must be removed.

Perhaps war accomplishes nothing but to sharpen the edges and extend them. Maybe the best way to avoid this so called "clash of cultures" is to live up to our values and trade without fraud. I don't think we need to have big government intervening overseas any more then we need it intervening in our day to day lives. The simple fact of the matter is that the government and the corporations have merged. They serve one another and allow each to grow. At the heart of all of our military actions is a general looting of other people's resources and livelihoods. The people who run our fascist system can't compete on an even playing field in a real free market, so they just grab whatever they can with their guns and trick the public into supporting it. Our foreign policy is nothing but the bludgeon in a rigged system.

And you should care about that, because eventually that bludgeon will get turned back on you.

 

[MA-Caver]

Our foreign policy is nothing but the bludgeon in a rigged system.

And you should care about that, because eventually that bludgeon will get turned back on you.

It is a distinct possibility, I won't argue with that. Our Constitution supposedly is written to allow the citizens who would be the target of said bludgeon to put a stop to it.
Let us hope that the citizens have the wherewithal and the strength to do so. Individually sure there are who would have the will to do so.

Collectively?
That remains to be seen.