A few thoughts

[GAB]

Hi All,
I don't believe anyone is trying to say the man was not a criminal and a conman.

I believe if you were to read the various threads, that is not the general reason for this conversation..
Sure you can pick out a statement, out of context, and try to prove your point but that will only make the person, trying to substantiate their postition more suspect.

As John Bishop said, in a very early post he (mitose) was still conning people up to the day he died, or at least was trying to. Or was he?

But, in our court system there are rules and laws. One of them is that, the case can be reviewed by a higher court, that is what these numerous persons were trying to get done when the man expired.

The man died of complications of diabitis, and we all know how responsible the type of diet that was in the prison system at that date and time, would have been so diffucult for a man in his condition, to be able to control the effects of diabitis even if he were on insulin.

Many complications and poor timing, but at least he was not dead, which is why Hanshi Bruce went and met the man and the rest is history.

But in many post there is bickering about going to Japan, Birth certificates, and other items that have been mentioned, I have stated many times it will be coming out at the Gathering which is this weekend.

Along with what Dr. Sumners is posting on his site at this time, it will help to establish some sense, or not, to whoever wants to say or misconstrue.

I believe the persons who want to find fault with Kosho Ryu, ought to spend a half hour on the mat with Hanshi, then get back to me, with how you feel. He has always said, if you don't believe me, come to my Dojo, and work out with me and I will explain it to you.

He loves Kumite, and has a standing offer, just come over and see what we do.

Regards, Gary

PS. When Mitose died, none of Mitose's family wanted anything to do with his remains, Hanshi took care of that also. He truly respected the man for his knowledge, and still does. G

 

[The Kai]

Hi All,
I don't believe anyone is trying to say the man was not a criminal and a conman.

As John Bishop said, in a very early post he (mitose) was still conning people up to the day he died, or at least was trying to. Or was he?

You seem to be questioning your own statements

The man died of complications of diabitis, and we all know how responsible the type of diet that was in the prison system at that date and time, would have been so diffucult for a man in his condition, to be able to control the effects of diabitis even if he were on insulin.

I think you are thinking of the prison system of the 1800's where the inmate are fed gruel. Food and mediacations are provided for, (see cruel and unusal punishment laws and lawsuits)[/QUOTE]

I believe the persons who want to find fault with Kosho Ryu, ought to spend a half hour on the mat with Hanshi, then get back to me, with how you feel. He has always said, if you don't believe me, come to my Dojo, and work out with me and I will explain it to you.

He loves Kumite, and has a standing offer, just come over and see what we do.

If you are saying that might makes right then that is great, hanshi is great martial artist, and i think we should talk, but maybe not throw down the gauntlet when you get frustrated
Todd

 

[GAB]

Todd,

I am not frustrated, I am mearly stating a standing invitation.

You don't have to participate, just come and observe.
Kosho Ryu is not all about might and beating up on people. How you feel is not about your physcial injuries, it is about what you will see and discuss. When you leave the establishment, and walk away, with a good feeling or bad feeling or whatever your feeling.

I am not going to argue, just stating observations.

Regarding the quote, "or was he". I am relating to the time frame of his incarceration, when he was talking to people involved, he seemed to have conviced them enough to go out on a limb.

As far as food in the prison system and various locations, just recently, it has changed for diabetes patients. People are still very naive about what diabetics can eat and the amounts. You would be very surprised. If you check it out.
Actually, Gruel would not be to bad, if you did not use milk,or add extra sugar.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Actuaaly I've been to Kosho things, so it's cool.


Youare making observations in a rather odd way, giving the evidence, testiminy and eye witness reports and then you make a observation that runs 180 degrees from where everything points you!
if diabeties is hard to treat is that the patients or the jails fault?? is there a big conspiracy to keep someone in jail<why>. I did'nt want you to get defensive, cryptic or challenging. I just wanted to here some reason for your ideas, beyond the standard "or was It"
Todd

 

[GAB]

Todd,

Ok.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

also to talk to GGM Thomas Mitose regarding, his heritage, why he continues to use the lineage issue if it is not verifiable or even close to the truth.


Thomas Mitose is the son correct??
So he is of the bloodline??
He did meet his father correct??
The same as others who make claims correct??

If Kosho is a process and a study, could it not be that the process and the study of the concepts, principles could result in a practioner not moving like a SKSKI person, but something else? So it would not be correct Kosho unless it looks like your KOsho?

To show that Mitose is not the only fraud and foreflusher in the ring of founders etc.

Probably not.
Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi All,
I don't believe anyone is trying to say the man was not a criminal and a conman.

I believe if you were to read the various threads, that is not the general reason for this conversation..
Sure you can pick out a statement, out of context, and try to prove your point but that will only make the person, trying to substantiate their postition more suspect.

As John Bishop said, in a very early post he (mitose) was still conning people up to the day he died, or at least was trying to. Or was he?

But, in our court system there are rules and laws. One of them is that, the case can be reviewed by a higher court, that is what these numerous persons were trying to get done when the man expired.

The man died of complications of diabitis, and we all know how responsible the type of diet that was in the prison system at that date and time, would have been so diffucult for a man in his condition, to be able to control the effects of diabitis even if he were on insulin.

Many complications and poor timing, but at least he was not dead, which is why Hanshi Bruce went and met the man and the rest is history.

But in many post there is bickering about going to Japan, Birth certificates, and other items that have been mentioned, I have stated many times it will be coming out at the Gathering which is this weekend.

Along with what Dr. Sumners is posting on his site at this time, it will help to establish some sense, or not, to whoever wants to say or misconstrue.

I believe the persons who want to find fault with Kosho Ryu, ought to spend a half hour on the mat with Hanshi, then get back to me, with how you feel. He has always said, if you don't believe me, come to my Dojo, and work out with me and I will explain it to you.

He loves Kumite, and has a standing offer, just come over and see what we do.

Regards, Gary

PS. When Mitose died, none of Mitose's family wanted anything to do with his remains, Hanshi took care of that also. He truly respected the man for his knowledge, and still does. G

Gary, you have mentioned Dr. Ted Sumners on the San Jose Kenpo website. I have recently joined their discussion forum. You referenced what Dr. Sumner has posted on his site. Well, I just read a letter he posted from Ed Parker in 1984. To paraphrase, it stated Hanshi's Kosho was not what Mitose taught but was of Connors/Tracy Kenpo and that Mr. Parker stated he spent more time with Mitose than Hanshi, etc. Again, I paraphrased but anyone reading this can just go to the San Jose site and read it verbatim. As far as what Todd stated about, I think he's right, I mean for that matter, someone could say if you want to prove your Kosho get in the ring with Tyson, that would be just as off base in making the point. Point being, as John Bishop has stated, we are not challenging the effectiveness of Kosho in any way, shape or form. For sake of argument let's say you're Kosho is what Ed Parker stated it was in that letter on Dr. Sumner's website, Connors/Tracy Kenpo, another very legitimate offshoot of the original Hawaiian-derived Kenpo that we all came from. Nothing wrong with that, all these Hawaiian kenpo related arts are effective in the right hands.

 

[John Bishop]

Actually, Dr. Sumner's posting of the "Mitose" birth doc's just brings about more questions about this man.
You have 3 documents for the same person "James Mitose".
Two documents lists his birth date as:12-30-1916.
A third document lists it as: 12-28-1916.
One document lists his mother as: Kiyoka Komatsu.
Another document lists her as: Kiyoka Yoshida.

So, one has to wonder how many identities did Mitose have?

 

[Karazenpo]

Actually, Dr. Sumner's posting of the "Mitose" birth doc's just brings about more questions about this man.
You have 3 documents for the same person "James Mitose".
Two documents lists his birth date as:12-30-1916.
A third document lists it as: 12-28-1916.
One document lists his mother as: Kiyoka Komatsu.
Another document lists her as: Kiyoka Yoshida.

So, one has to wonder how many identities did Mitose have?

Good point, John.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I believe the persons who want to find fault with Kosho Ryu, ought to spend a half hour on the mat with Hanshi, then get back to me, with how you feel. He has always said, if you don't believe me, come to my Dojo, and work out with me and I will explain it to you.

He loves Kumite, and has a standing offer, just come over and see what we do.

Regards, Gary

If my daddy can beat up your daddy, does that mean he always tells the truth, and is automatically correct on all issues? Logical Phallacy (sp error intended): Argumentum ad Bacculum (sp? legit)..."Argument with a stick". In other words, "I'm right, because I'm bigger than you are and will beat you up if you don't agree". Doesn't prove any truths or make evidence more compelling. Generally used when logic no longer applies.

I'm sure "Hanshi" is quite skilled...like a lot of kenpo/kempo bada$$es out there. That does not make his assertions correct.

D.

 

[GAB]

Hi Dr. Dave,

You are very correct in your observations and that is exactly my point, regarding other Martial Artists as well. I am glad you brought that up, well said.

I have probably had way to many posts on this subject, and if you read them, Dr. Dave you will find that I very seldom reference your statements as to who can beat up who. I did not say that in any of the quotes. Your statement's, not mine.

That is a particular part of the discussion that will always be there, how one say's something, and how one takes it out of context. It has happened many times on this particular topic.

Joe, Regarding the letter from Parker it would be interesting to know what Bill wrote originally. That is not a correct statement about Hanshi, he was with Tracy, but he changed and trained and formed the Kosho Ryu arts after in depth investigation into the art, that many people explained to him on what Mitose taught and some he added to pay respect to Robert Trias.

At the time of the letter it could have been an observation, but not in the past nineteen years, he has been dedicated to the preservation of Mitose.

Bill Hensel was with Hanshi Bruce Juchnik for a few years, prior to that he was Tracy/Conners, they split on bad terms. Bill went back to the Tracy school of thought, so I am not sure what the agenda for that letter is.

Except for the time frame and Bills question to Parker, it was at the time when he was in the Kosho Ryu organization. Kosho Ryu was just forming (after death of J. Mitose) and had a few kinks, then it went the way it is now.

Remember, Thomas and Bruce were in the same org. and then they went their seperate ways, not unlike many other Kenpo factions.

Also on the subject of Mitose and Parker and Chow. One of the persons was Hawaiian/American, one was Chinese and one was Japanese.
Regarding religions, one was whatever he felt like at the time, two were Mormon.
We went to war with the Japanese, and at the time, LDS (Mormon) was considered more of a cult then a religion. Interrpret that anyway you want.

John, I noticed the various type o's and different dates also, I did not mention them for there are many reasons for that occuring. But one type o does not mean forgery or any other thing that has been implied.

I just hope this thread will get the attention of others, who will then look at the picture and form their opinions. There are a lot of people who have agendas, and there are that don't. We won't change one person who has formed his opinion, but we will cause others to look at the whole picture.
(Mitose, Chow, Parker, Tracy, Mitose, Juchnik, Tracy, Mitose.)


Todd, Regarding GGM Thomas Mitose, you are missing my whole point, so I will say, Yes and OK, and he is not the first son of James.

Choki Motobu was not the first son of his lineage and none of the family art was passed to him, only the oldest, and usually that is the way.

If it is handed down then the person who it was handed down to will usually have some information on the lineage. Choki had to learn it from his brother , but in the meantime he developed his own.

People can back peddle all they want, say I didn't mean disrespect etc. etc.

These threads have been viewed by thousands, will be on the internet for along time, that is good.

Waiting on the A&E "no agenda" Documentary.

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Hi All,

I have just read some interesting information on Dr. Sumner's board regarding more information coming up, the information is being presented in a manner of releasing it, in such a way as to read and digest, then more information and put it together.

I think the picture of Mitose is being presented, like as Tracy and his historian were following the crumbs. Or similar to putting all the pieces into a puzzle only going out on a treasure hunt and finding the pieces then assembling the puzzle.

We are going to be on easter egg hunt and inside of many eggs are the questions and the answers.

Have any of you played Monk Quest? It is a game of question and answers, it is for sale on the SKSKI website. Is quite informative and in it you can find a lot of information about the quest of the Monk.

I will tell you this, riddle, and koan, are some of the things that are in this game. Al Tracy is in to that type of giving of information. Why? Because that is how he had to find it, and also how Hanshi had to find it.

We of the Western mind set are not to keen on this type of "Gamesmanship" if you will. But the people and the quest for knowledge regarding the eastern mind set are different, that is for sure.

This is one of the reasons Western Cultures, still to this date can not understand the Eastern Cultures. IMO.

Similar to the same problem we of the Christian faith cannot understand the
faith of the Islam people. To put it another way is, Man is from Mars and Women are from Venus.

Last but not least American Kenpo or Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo.

I believe the thought with the information from Dr. Ted is, buckle up sit back, and enjoy the scenery, the information will come out, but you have got to think and study, each and every piece of the puzzle.

Regards, Gary
PS. This is one of the reasons Hanshi say's, "stop and think", conception or to conceive or to conceptualize is the name of the tune in Kosho.

 

[The Kai]

,

Todd, Regarding GGM Thomas Mitose, you are missing my whole point, so I will say, Yes and OK, and he is not the first son of James.

Choki Motobu was not the first son of his lineage and none of the family art was passed to him, only the oldest, and usually that is the way.

If it is handed down then the person who it was handed down to will usually have some information on the lineage. Choki had to learn it from his brother , but in the meantime he developed his own.

Regards, Gary

GGM Mitose studied with his father so the lineage would be there, first son or not he is the son that chose his dad's art!
So what is it you are thinking is missing??
Todd

 

[kelly keltner]

Actually, Dr. Sumner's posting of the "Mitose" birth doc's just brings about more questions about this man.
You have 3 documents for the same person "James Mitose".
Two documents lists his birth date as:12-30-1916.
A third document lists it as: 12-28-1916.
One document lists his mother as: Kiyoka Komatsu.
Another document lists her as: Kiyoka Yoshida.

So, one has to wonder how many identities did Mitose have?

The answer to the name issue is in the koseki, or the family record, it reveals adoptions in and out of both famillies. Mekugi Knows more about the specifics of how it works than I do.
The discrepancy in dates I cannot explain.

kelly

 

[kelly keltner]

Mitose's trail was in 73'? Thats about 3 decades removed from the war, so resentments?

Mitoses's secret technique, you have a Literal Eye Witness, a trained Martial Artist. You ask a question, which this person whom was right there denies-Which you use as proof the techniques was "too advanced" and flew under the noses of every Kenpoist in the room!

Mitose was charged with murder the other relavations I don't believe he was charged with (the con's,etc)

May I remind you this is the same eyewitness who says he saw Bruce Juchnik suck at doing kata in a time frame which is at best improbable from his own description of events, at a place Mr. Juchnik never said he was. With no one who has come foward to corroborate his story. Todd you and I both know better about any claims about Bruce's ability. Even in the seventies he was known as a good Kenpo man before he met Mitose. So I take what Doc says with a grain of salt. He has a right to his opinion and recollection of events.

kelly

 

[Doc]

May I remind you this is the same eyewitness who says he saw Bruce Juchnik suck at doing kata in a time frame which is at best improbable from his own description of events, at a place Mr. Juchnik never said he was.

Yep! That's what he said all right.

With no one who has come foward to corroborate his story.

You know I hate to say it but that's just pure dumb. Anybody could come on the net and say, "I was there and Doc's right" if that's all it takes to stop the whining and yapping.

Todd you and I both know better about any claims about Bruce's ability. Even in the seventies he was known as a good Kenpo man before he met Mitose.

Can you get someone who was there to come forth and corroborate that?

So I take what Doc says with a grain of salt. He has a right to his opinion and recollection of events.

See what I mean? I need corroboration, a vaccination, and a note from my teacher, but ole Bruce's word is gospel. Well he was there, and he did suck that day - I don't mean that in a bad way - maybe he was just having a bad day. As far as the "grain of salt," if you take everything Bruce says as the "truth" just because he says it, you'll need more than salt to make those stories taste good. But you too are entitled to your opinion, even though you weren't there and really don't know whether Bruce was or not. At least I'm not relying on what someone told me. Incense anyone? YSDAB*

 

[The Kai]

Of course i can not corraborate the event itself. I will speak up for the ability of Hanshi Juchnik. I don't know what happened at the event Doc was at, maybe Juchni was performing a new kata, or not feeling well, maybe, maybe. I don't know what happened but I can say hanshi is one hell of a Martial Artist! No disresspect to Doc. One tournament does not prove or disprove ability.

Todd

 

[Kosho-Monk]

OK. Let me get this straight. Hanshi sucked in the 70's. So what? That doesn't mean anything to me. I sucked in the 70's too. But I will say that I have seen footage of Hanshi from the late 70's early 80's and he looked pretty good back then. He certainly didn't move then like he does now. He's a student first, and as such, he is constantly improving.

The worse thing that happens to many teachers is that they stop learning. So many teachers think they know it all and become content with themselves. Ego and pride kick in and they not only stop progressing, they actually start getting worse.

I trained with Hanshi Juchnik (and many other great masters) over the weekend at the Gathering. It was an event that truly humbles the best practitioners. The one thing that Hanshi Juchnik continues to speak on is unity between all the martial groups. He is not only dedicated to the art of Kosho, but to all martial arts.

Anyone who does not attend these events and see for themselves all the great work that Bruce Juchnik has done for the entire martial arts community needs to close their mouths and keep their fingers off the keyboards. You do not know the truth about this man.

Hanshi continually speaks out to the students and reminds them to respect all masters of all martial systems. And some of these same masters that Hanshi speaks out for are posting disrespectful statements about him on sites like this one.

So all of you who continue to bad-mouth my teacher, Hanshi Bruce Juchnik, please continue if you wish. You will not hear Hanshi Juchnik bad mouth any of you. He is above that.

I have taken the time to know Bruce Juchnik and to admire all of the great work he has done. There is no doubt within my heart and soul that he is on the true path of martial enlightement.

I bow humbly to my teacher with gratitude for having the endurance to put up with so much negativity.


-John Evans

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi John, long time no hear from! Glad to see you're still heavily involved in the arts. Is Mike Connors still running the school. I appreciate your loyalty to your instructor, there's not too much of that around anymore. As you know, I always show proper respect (whenever humanly possible that is,lol) to my seniors and peers and, as you are well aware of, only interested in the historical accuracies of the Mitose saga, not the criminal part, just his link to the arts. We were told that much would be revealed at the 'Gathering', since you were there, do you know anything? Are you at liberty to tell us? If not, I understand and I'll respect that. For those who don't know John, I was honored to be a guest instructor at his school in New Hampshire a few years back. He is a man of honor and integrity not to mention a helluva kempo man and I would be very interested into hearing his account of the 'Gathering'. "Joe"

 

[GAB]

Hi John,

I want to thank you for the update, Kell and I figured we would hear this evening, so your up date is nice to read.

I might add that is what I have observed in my last 16 years of knowing Hanshi.

Yes, he is a student first and foremost he says that all the time.

Hanshi told be to tell Doc, "Doc, I don't know you, but you are right, I do suck, by the standards I have put on myself when compared to the many masters I have known personally, but I am trying to improve every day. I am a student of the martial arts always.

Thanks again, Regards, Gary