A few thoughts

[Mekosho]

First off, let me say right up front, I am not one of those "Mitose is innocent and the trial was a farce" type of person. I see as the rest of you that there is much much evidence pointing to the opposite. That is what I want to address...Does anyone else find it the least bit interesting that the criminal system from way back when, who did not have the capability our justice sytem has now, could scrape up ALL the evidence to find this mysterious man, guilty as charged...I mean, ALL the jurors had to vote "guilty" correct? Isn't that how it works? Otherwise it is a hung jury? I mean, we, with all our technology, cannot even find out his real name or whether or not he really went to Japan, who was related, who wasn't...just sounds a little to conveinient to me! To borrow a very popular pre stetement phrase on this board..."IMHO".... I think, a man, of obvious Asian decent, during that period in our country's history let alone the fact that we had been to war with Japan, I really don't think he stood any more chance of a FAIR trial in that day and age as a black man in the same era...as a matter of fact, people still cry out about the unfairness of our legal sytem due to racial prejudice even nowadays..
Now, lets address the article where Mr Chow was interviewed...he claims Mr. Mitose a fraud...okay, this is a man who has blatently(?) lied of his connection to Mitose, has denied any traing with him and claims to have a family history of Kung Fu which has been almost completly proven to be untrue, so I feel, as a witness to someones ablity or character, Mr. Chow is an un qualified witness...and his opinion should be striken from the records...lol.
Now, someone on here spoke of our Mon, our crest, and thier theory concerning it and Mr. Trias...To be perfectly honest, I have not checked into that yet, but as far as the crest being in the wrong position, if you are speaking of the Hoken or covered fist being on top, that was not an accident...those symbols or hand postures are in the order we typically live by, or strive to live to by...the praying hands being on top as that is what we are suppose to do...Pray for no trouble, the second the hands overlapping symbolizes looking for the good in people all people...and the final symbolizing our war arts...that is ALWAYS the last choice in a conflict...unless of course our country is ALREADY at war, then a conflict has already occured and we must battle...that is why the Mon was changed during that time...
Okay, almost done...I want to address the whole "Mitose visited and ED Parker school once and this is what happened" thing...I have heard Many many people say or parrot Mr. Parker that the technique Mr. Mitose did...one where a punch was thrown at him, he dropped to one knee and hit the person on the toe...Did he get hit? I mean...it does not have to be dramatic to be effective...did he get hit? NO!!!! and that is what Kosho is about first and formost...ESCAPE....was the technique to advanced? I think it was so simple, that most did not grasp its effectiveness...therefore, yes...it was far to advanced for the crowd at hand...
And last but not least. the whole "spy" thoery... could it be? most definatly...we have utilized spys thru out history...so, is a definate possibility...could Mr. Mitose have been one...Yep! And if that is the case...a bunch of freelance reporters and history buffs may never find ALL the evidence...stuff like that is protected...I mean, if the general public can tap into information like this to do a study...imagine where that would leave this country as far as the rest of the world goes....

 

[rmcrobertson]

As much as I, too, would like to believe that one of the "founders," of kenpo had nothing to do with a murder, or with assorted swindles, I refuse to try and rationalize reality out of existence.

Mitose's criminal actions, arguably, are among the reasons American kenpo continues to be a bit of a mess.

Incidentally, kenpo is far from the only art with such problems. Aikido's just as bad, in its way.

 

[Michael Billings]

[font=&quot]Let's get a little reality here! Although there are miscarriages of justice, you are extremely naive (or paranoid) in thinking that mistakes at that level of offense occur frequently. The standard of evidence is very high, and difficult for the state to prove. Further, who are we to judge; we have not heard the evidence as it was presented at that time. Those who think our system is that messed up ... well, it has its problems, but it is designed to err on the accused's side - HEAVILY. Due process, especially in California, is highly stressed. When they cannot convict some of the highest profile cases in the country, you know that the rights of the defendant are well protected ... usually to the extreme. That has always been California's bane, and blessing.

If you think James Mitose did not deserve, or was not guilty of the conviction, more power to you, but you better have a much better argument available than racial bias, or lack of investigative techniques. The documentation of the evidence is convincing, and clear.

I agree with Robert. This unfortunate blemish has created one of the greatest rifts in Kenpo, with interpretation of lineage. It is also one that cannot be resolved in any fashion. We all can hold our own beliefs and feelings regarding this, but that is unlikely to change the mind of someone who is not like-minded as you.

I personally am sick of these threads debating Mitose's role in the formulation or descent of Kenpo. While interesting historically initially, and I was appreciative of the contributions made by the solid researchers, it has lost it's luster and seems almost inane and repetitive at times now.[/font]

:sadsong::deadhorse
(Playing a sad song for the horse that is dead and continues to be beaten)

-Michael

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'm with you, completely, Mr. Billings. I also continue to be amazed at how many people even care about the specifics of History. As I said in another thread, not one of the knpeo fathers taught what he was himself taught. Each made changes and adaptations. The most interesting changes were made, in my mind, by Mssr's Parker (& associated contributors along the journey) and Emperado (and associated contributors along the journey).

Regardless of where they started, each added to what they learned to create martial legacies. "American Karate", at least along the Left Coast, owes most of it's existence to these 2 gentleman's efforts and intuitions. So, ultimately, who cares about Mitose, except as it relates to shoring up thier claims to legitimacy? The entire kenpo family tree is not pedigree...and still manages to contain many of the worlds amazing martial artists.

Dave

 

[Karazenpo]

In my humble opinion, these last two posts should sum it up............but unfortunately it won't. Good job, gentlemen, you both put it quite well.

 

[Doc]

Okay, almost done...I want to address the whole "Mitose visited and ED Parker school once and this is what happened" thing....was the technique to advanced? I think it was so simple, that most did not grasp its effectiveness...therefore, yes...it was far to advanced for the crowd at hand....

I was one of the "crowd at hand" and the technique's significance did not escape me. What was more significant was that he suggested it was a "secret" technique, and he absolutely positively looked pathetic executing it. Having actually studied with real "masters" I knew what they looked like. My impression was he wasn't close to being a "master" of any art displayed that day. Even his "con" failed to impress anyone and he was sent packing. Everything about this man speaks for itself.

 

[Mekosho]

Hmmmm, s'pose nobody read what I started this thread with...where I stated that I did not feel Mitose was innocent...I feel there was alot of evidence stacked against him...far to much to believe he was totally innocent, but it is you all who are naive if you feel that he was guilty of EVERYTHING that he has been charged with, in the courts or out of them...
As far as caring whether or not he was guilty or whatever as it is past history and we should move on...seems there are alot more people interested in this subject due to some of the post I have read on here...but you are right...it is the past and we cannot change it...and we will never find out the WHOLE truth...maybe just a little more here and there to make as ask more questions...
As to the individual that was there in the Parker dojo when Mitose visited...I just wish that I would have the opportunity to have met and talked to either of those gentleman as they are and always will be two of the most popular people in the history of Kempo or in martial arts period...you are very lucky...as far as the technique not looking very ummmm master looking...whatever that means...Hanshi decribes that true mastery should look like an accident...my point is, I don't care if I look totally idiotic doing a technique if it worked...and judging from what I hear, Mitose the fruad who never had any REAL training, had a Highly trained EPAK student throw a punch at him, but missed and got his toe punched...lol...I like it!!!! Makes you question previous training from both sides I would say...
Anyways, ya'll have a good one, I will be back on next week...
As far as the whole "secret" move...I agree...sounds a bit hillish, but then again...was a whole different time frame with a whole different mind set...what was exiting back then...is kinda boring nowadays...I would be willing to bet, at the time when he offered a "secret technique" just before you saw what it was, you were a bit exited, just by the word play...



Robb

 

[The Kai]

Mitose's trail was in 73'? Thats about 3 decades removed from the war, so resentments?

Mitoses's secret technique, you have a Literal Eye Witness, a trained Martial Artist. You ask a question, which this person whom was right there denies-Which you use as proof the techniques was "too advanced" and flew under the noses of every Kenpoist in the room!

Mitose was charged with murder the other relavations I don't believe he was charged with (the con's,etc)

 

[rmcrobertson]

To me, the interesting point can be summarized with a paraphrase of a title of one of Michael Schwermer's books:

"Why do people believe weird things?"

If martial artists thought seriously about why it is that they get into these hallucinations about heros and history, we'd all be better off.

 

[M.C. Busman]

Quote: "Why do people believe wierd things?"

Because they want to. (short answer)

Michael Shermer's book is worth reading, too.


Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman

 

[John Bishop]

I guess I need to clarify the reason for our in-depth discussion of James Mitose's criminal past.
First off I, and I'm sure Joe Shuras, never meant to give the impressions that we thought anything negative about Kosho Ryu practitioners and their art.
We have approached these discussions from purely a desire to learn more about the history of the Hawaiian Kenpo arts.
When you examine historical statements, you have to also examine the credibility of the researcher or story teller. Do they have a agenda? Do they have something to gain from telling their version of history? This could be financially, or in recruiting followers, or by building up their reputations.
You can't accept James Mitose's version of history without first examining his credibility, and what he had to gain by telling his version.
When we take a critical look at James Mitose's life, we see someone who had a criminal record dating back to 1939. We see someone who was involved in frauds and scams for at least 10 years of his life. Someone who earned all of his money for at least 10 years thru lies, threats, and deceit. Someone who lied about his clerical credentials, lied about his educational credentials, and lied about his business practices.
So before you accept "his-story" from James Mitose, you have to in your own mind judge the credibility of the story teller.

 

[Karazenpo]

I guess I need to clarify the reason for our in-depth discussion of James Mitose's criminal past.
First off I, and I'm sure Joe Shuras, never meant to give the impressions that we thought anything negative about Kosho Ryu practitioners and their art.
We have approached these discussions from purely a desire to learn more about the history of the Hawaiian Kenpo arts.
When you examine historical statements, you have to also examine the credibility of the researcher or story teller. Do they have a agenda? Do they have something to gain from telling their version of history? This could be financially, or in recruiting followers, or by building up their reputations.
You can't accept James Mitose's version of history without first examining his credibility, and what he had to gain by telling his version.
When we take a critical look at James Mitose's life, we see someone who had a criminal record dating back to 1939. We see someone who was involved in frauds and scams for at least 10 years of his life. Someone who earned all of his money for at least 10 years thru lies, threats, and deceit. Someone who lied about his clerical credentials, lied about his educational credentials, and lied about his business practices.
So before you accept "his-story" from James Mitose, you have to in your own mind judge the credibility of the story teller.

Very well put, John, very well put......

 

[Brother John]

Mitose's criminal actions, arguably, are among the reasons American kenpo continues to be a bit of a mess.

Mr. Robertson-
I was just wondering what bearing you feel this has on American Kenpo today. How is it 'continuing' to foster a mess??
Thanks

Your Brother
John

 

[GAB]

Hi All,

Many times I have explained the reason for this last, hurrah, regarding the late James Mitose and the slights against the "Juchnik Camp".

We wanted and still want the people who are involved in the research for the A&E Documentary. Talk to Hanshi, and the Tracy Camp, to find out what they have, also to talk to GGM Thomas Mitose regarding, his heritage, why he continues to use the lineage issue if it is not verifiable or even close to the truth.

To show that Mitose is not the only fraud and foreflusher in the ring of founders etc.

When the issue for the A&E Documentary came up we wanted a fair shake, I even contacted Dr Sumners about it. He is basically the historian for the Tracys, he knew nothing about it.

Mike Brown the historian for the SKSKI is familiar with it now, but I am not sure when or how the truth to why he was questioned about the knowledge (he knows and therefore Hanshi knows) was put forth to him.

To many agendas and not enough questions to the parties I have mentioned.

So that is the reason for this go around.

It was started for that reason and it will go on until the time comes, when the agendas stop, and the truth comes out. Will that happen???

We will see.

Regards, Gary

 

[M.C. Busman]

John Bishop, I agree with you again.

Skepticism & critical thinking are healthy.


Y'all Take Care,

M.C. Busman

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well...uh...

1. Mitose's money-grubbing is still very much with American kenpo.

2. The attempt to erase him from kenpo--or similarly, to erase his crimes from kenpo--seems to me to dovetail very nicely with a lot of the general swaggering that, at times, is all too clear in kenpo.

3. The repetition of the "break-up," structure that's so often what happens.

4. I guess I just have this weird ancient Greek attitude...you know, your granddad offended the gods, and that's why you've ended up killing your father and marrying your mom...

 

[Kalicombat]

For what its worth, Ill throw in my take on this.
First and foremost, I study SGM Edmund K. Parker's American Kenpo System. The history of kenpo before SGM Parker has no signifigance to me. I am concerned only about SGM Parkers teachings of the system that he created and passed along to his students. Mitose, Chow, humpty dumpty, and the man in the moon have no bearing on what we learn today. If Mitose was a criminal, so what. Prisons are full of criminals, and the line at the grocery store is as well.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary C.

 

[Brother John]

Well...uh...

1. Mitose's money-grubbing is still very much with American kenpo.

2. The attempt to erase him from kenpo--or similarly, to erase his crimes from kenpo--seems to me to dovetail very nicely with a lot of the general swaggering that, at times, is all too clear in kenpo.

3. The repetition of the "break-up," structure that's so often what happens.

4. I guess I just have this weird ancient Greek attitude...you know, your granddad offended the gods, and that's why you've ended up killing your father and marrying your mom...

Thank you
I think I see where you are coming from in this.
It would be good if we could break this Oedipal karma and make a clean break of it in Kenpo.

Your Brother
John

 

[GAB]

Hi All,

Regarding somemore information that is being given to the general Kenpo population courtesy of Dr. Sumner. You can go to his web site and observe in his articles section, Numerous records of Mitose and family. www.sanjosekenpo.com

Thanks Dr. Sumner for the information, I am sure more will be coming also.

As I stated in prior posts, this is the weekend for infromation.

Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

I think, respectfully, some miss the point. It really isn't the matter of what Mitose taught having any significance on what someone is studying in any of the Hawaiian-derived kenpo systems today but the dissussion on this topic is for the 'general history' section of the arts. All martial arts have histories, it's all part of the whole ball of wax. In my opinion, to be well rounded in your art, one should have a working knowledge of one's history especially if one is a teacher. Students are asking questions all the time and they're not stupid. A student knows when an instructor 'dances' around a question because they don't have the answer but don't want the student to know that. I say, learn your history, have the answers available for your students and then let them decide whether they think it is an important part of what they do today or not. It should be their decision to make. We, as instructors, should not be making that decision for them. Just my opinion........