4 things needed to destroy myth of creator deity

Jenna

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,470
Reaction score
713
Location
Cluj
I hope you beat your cancer.



There is no incontrovertible scientific evidence of your imminent death. Science does not say that "Jenna" will die from cancer. Science says that a certain percentage of people in your situation will die. Even if that percentage was 100%, that does not rule out in principle that someone could survive. These are probabilities, not certainties.

Oh I am sorry my friend, to you and Sukerkin, I apologise, I am being illustrative only here, there is nothing too much wrong with my health, I apologise. I am sorry that I am as usual not particularly clear in my analogy or my language and but it is purely to illustrate I promise, Jenna :)

... As to your point, yes, you can of course reduce scientific uncertainty to mathematical concepts such as probability, especially since the human machine is such a complex agglomeration of interconnected and complex systems, however my point here is simply to counter the argument that was made that the religious faithful (read fundamentalist) sections of society can extend and impose their worldviews onto the lives of non believers. Science holds a great sway over our existences, in many cases rightly so, and but in other cases it is to the detriment of life itself. If, as a layperson, I have it shown to me that the weight of scientific evidence is against me in the case of my own health, then more often than not, I will take that as fact, whether I want to believe it or not. The trust I put in my consultant and the faith I have in his medical science naturally tempers my view even, as is often the case, where he tells me I will die and I take him at his word, and by some destructive placebo effect, bring about a quickening of my own death. What I would hope is that there would be place for both systems of measurement: science and belief. However, I appreciate that for many on both sides of the fence, it is unfortunately a black and white issue with no shades of grey.
 

Jenna

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,470
Reaction score
713
Location
Cluj
That is your strength of will, my friend. The power of the mind to overcome adversity by refusing to accept it and using it's imaginative prowess to conjure ways around that which logic says cannot be defeated. It works - it's worked before and it will work again.

I wish that I believed that there was a loving creator to which I could pray for you but I do not. So I hope that my love, as one human to another who is in distress and danger, will be just as welcome.

Do NOT give in, Jenna. The world will be a lesser place without you in it.
I am sorry for any confusion in my language Suke, I am as usual not so competent in putting a thought together! As much as there is a truth of experience in what I wrote, I promise I am using this analogy only as illustration :) And but Mark I wish too that you could extend your scientific logic to encompass the notion of, as you put it, a loving creator, or at very least, some aspect of existence beyond our own scientific corporeality. I think if you believe in nothing more than what is contextually provable then there is little point in hoping for anything, whether that be for a nice sunny day for your picnic or that your loved ones recover from illness. If there is nothing more than a science which excludes the notion of a deity then there is no place either for hope, for (without wanting to sound twee) where would your hopes go to perform an action? Are your hopes not hopeless? Are you not deluding yourself to think that your hopes for a sick loved one have some effect? And but I do apologise for my post that you responded to, I am just using that as an illustration
 

Sukerkin

Have the courage to speak softly
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
15,325
Reaction score
493
Location
Staffordshire, England
That's one almighty "PHEW!" from me, so fear not my dear friend that I mistook what you wrote as actuality rather than illustration. I knew that you had been seriously ill not so long ago and so was aghast that a new, devestating blow, had fallen upon you.

I am SO deeply glad that this is not the case :double thumbs-up:
 

cdunn

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
868
Reaction score
36
Location
Greensburg, PA
And but Mark I wish too that you could extend your scientific logic to encompass the notion of, as you put it, a loving creator, or at very least, some aspect of existence beyond our own scientific corporeality. I think if you believe in nothing more than what is contextually provable then there is little point in hoping for anything, whether that be for a nice sunny day for your picnic or that your loved ones recover from illness. If there is nothing more than a science which excludes the notion of a deity then there is no place either for hope, for (without wanting to sound twee) where would your hopes go to perform an action? Are your hopes not hopeless? Are you not deluding yourself to think that your hopes for a sick loved one have some effect? And but I do apologise for my post that you responded to, I am just using that as an illustration

As soon as a God interceeds in our reality on our behalf, he is a testable hypothesis. And he has not fared particularly well. That does not mean that there is no use for hope. Hope alone strengthens the resolve of the mind - as a function of the body, the mind has feedback loops with the body, and hope makes them positive. Hope inspires us to try for ourselves. Hope in family and medical caregivers inspires them to work more diligently on your behalf. And frankly, we're still very bad at biology as a society, and things can happen we don't always expect. The world is not perfectly deterministic, so far as we can tell. We have agency in our own lives, therefore, hope. But I will not beg and plead with the universe, nor will I make a loved one suffer unneccesarily. Neither is beneficial.
 

DragonWC

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
35
Reaction score
0
As soon as a God interceeds in our reality on our behalf, he is a testable hypothesis. And he has not fared particularly well. That does not mean that there is no use for hope. Hope alone strengthens the resolve of the mind - as a function of the body, the mind has feedback loops with the body, and hope makes them positive. Hope inspires us to try for ourselves. Hope in family and medical caregivers inspires them to work more diligently on your behalf. And frankly, we're still very bad at biology as a society, and things can happen we don't always expect. The world is not perfectly deterministic, so far as we can tell. We have agency in our own lives, therefore, hope. But I will not beg and plead with the universe, nor will I make a loved one suffer unneccesarily. Neither is beneficial.

Without god there is no religion. To test god. use ones own spirit as an instrument.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk
 

Ken Morgan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 9, 2009
Messages
2,985
Reaction score
130
Location
Guelph
Without god there is no religion. To test god. use ones own spirit as an instrument.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

And how does one calibrate “spirit”?
 
Last edited:

DragonWC

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
35
Reaction score
0
Meditation. Well firstly we must see the commonalities of the world religions, in order to find universal religion.
The misconception is faith and beliefs are the same. with belief it differs among religions but also within individuals of the same religion and sect, And also among people who disbelieve in general. Ones catholic belief of jesus may be different from another and so forth. Faith on the other hand is to trust the prophets that god is a reality and follow in the steps they taught in order to reach Him. So it is a continue process of inner growth until one finally reached enlightenment,heaven,realization etc. Depending on which world religion you are raise with. So the product ( saints. Mystics. Prophets etc.) are real. But its on ones part to do the experiment to see for oneself. Very much in a sense like a science teacher who already know the result but gives the students the tools in order to find out for him or herself.
 
Last edited:

Ken Morgan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 9, 2009
Messages
2,985
Reaction score
130
Location
Guelph
Meditation. Well firstly we must see the commonalities of the world religions, in order to find universal religion.
The misconception is faith and beliefs are the same. with belief it differs among religions but also within individuals of the same religion and sect, And also among people who disbelieve in general. Ones catholic belief of jesus may be different from another and so forth. Faith on the other hand is to trust the prophets that god is a reality and follow in the steps they taught in order to reach Him. So it is a continue process of inner growth until one finally reached enlightenment,heaven,realization etc. Depending on which world religion you are raise with. So the product ( saints. Mystics. Prophets etc.) are real. But its on ones part to do the experiment to see for oneself. Very much in a sense like a science teacher who already know the result but gives the students the tools in order to find out for him or herself.

When I first read your post I thought it said Medication…..it made for a funny few sentences…..:)

So you’re saying meditation can bring one closer to a god? How do you know? There is a biological and chemical change to performing meditation over a long period of time, it rewires the neuron receptors in the brain, it restructures them. If that is the case is getting closer to a god simply a matter of biology?

Using words like spirit, which is a wishy washy word to begin with, what does it mean? “I’m not religious, but I’m spiritual” what does that mean?? Spirit is one of those feel good words people use to make themselves feel better, it implies a closer understanding with the wider world, yet it can’t be measured. How do I know after a great dinner, some wine, sex and sleep, the melancholy/relaxed mood one can be in isn’t the same thing produced by meditation?

It has to be measureable.
 

DragonWC

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
35
Reaction score
0
As i said the method is not the same as if you were to measure something. God is not something since he is beyond everything. Otherwise if he can be proven in such a way. By definition of someone who is both the alpha and the omega. He is no longer god. If you want to measure something you can sure try. But you can't measure something if you don't know where to begin. But the irony is some-thing always can be measured in time. But. With god we are dealing with nothingness. You may be suprise that there are things that people unlock through meditation that may include healing power. Levitation. Mind read. Astral travel etc. And ultimately the secrets of the universe and fusion with god through meditation alone. Christian saints for example sometimes have stigmata. Although the product is very real and documented. People fail to prove it. Saint Theresa of Neumann was known not to eat anything besides the consecreate bread of Chirst. And many more just from this world religion alone. Other religions also have their own saints who are able to perform miracles similar and unique to their own tradition. Although a man may be highly psychical. He may still not yet know God (ultimate reality). But he knows there are subtler realities.
Can we say gravity does not exist if we cannot prove it? It still exist before and after we know about it unaffected by human amazment. But if someone is able to levitate... Then now what? Its not the whole truth since there are always exceptions in nature when it comes to dealing with saints and mystics. If you want to test the product. There are few of them still physically around. Especially in India. Then now the problem is how to know who is real and who is not? This also depends on how spiritual (calibrated) And open the individual is. Another way is if ones psychic faculties are open enough. You can see their golden aura. Often depicted as a halo above Jesus or Budhha in paintings.

Now what is the difference between being religious and being spiritual? If the man can pray in a church but not a temple. He is religious (dogmatic). If he can pray in both he is considered to be spiritual. The dogmatic religious man who believes that god is everywhere but yet fail to see and give praise to him at other holy temples is hypocritical.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

Ken Morgan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 9, 2009
Messages
2,985
Reaction score
130
Location
Guelph
You may be suprise that there are things that people unlock through meditation that may include healing power. Levitation. Mind read. Astral travel etc. And ultimately the secrets of the universe and fusion with god through meditation alone. Christian saints for example sometimes have stigmata. Although the product is very real and documented. People fail to prove it. Saint Theresa of Neumann was known not to eat anything besides the consecreate bread of Chirst. And many more just from this world religion alone. Other religions also have their own saints who are able to perform miracles similar and unique to their own tradition
if ones psychic faculties are open enough. You can see their golden aura. Often depicted as a halo above Jesus or Budhha in paintings.

healing power. Levitation. Mind read. Astral travel

Until all of the above can be proven scientifically, under controlled conditions, duplicated and verified somewhere else by peer review, its snake oil salesmen all over again.

I believe Randi is still offering $1million to anyone who can prove any of the above, and in all these years no one has done so.
 

fangjian

Black Belt
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
662
Reaction score
9
Location
CT
Astral Travel, gods and goddesses, telepathy, levitation........ Woo woo
 

DragonWC

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
35
Reaction score
0
If you are truthful in your inquiry. Then first have some self effort. Scriptures,self effort in the path of yoga and having a Sat-Guru is part of the equation. If not dont so readily disbelief when there are people that knows.

Yoga is the inner science.
 

DragonWC

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
35
Reaction score
0
Qigong masters can heal. Go find and see, they are not many. Saints are even fewer and they don't need to prove themselves. That is unbecoming of them. Can you imagine Jesus or a Buddha who do such a thing? Of people of religion here. What is the number one message? Self sacrifice. Humilty. Altruistic love. These beings being absolutely humbled need not prove themself in such a manner.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,595
Reaction score
4,888
Location
England
Qigong masters can heal. Go find and see, they are not many. Saints are even fewer and they don't need to prove themselves. That is unbecoming of them. Can you imagine Jesus or a Buddha who do such a thing? Of people of religion here. What is the number one message? Self sacrifice. Humilty. Altruistic love. These beings being absolutely humbled need not prove themself in such a manner.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

There is only one 'message' in life and that is to treat everyone as you would like to be treated. You can't go far wrong with that.
 

fangjian

Black Belt
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
662
Reaction score
9
Location
CT
If you are truthful in your inquiry. Then first have some self effort. Scriptures,self effort in the path of yoga and having a Sat-Guru is part of the equation. If not dont so readily disbelief when there are people that knows.

Yoga is the inner science.

A 'lack of belief' is simply a default position regarding the claims. I can not believe them, since evidence has never been provided to me. I am not cynical or anything like many on MT like to believe. However, I most definitely will dismiss claims along the lines of 'levitation', due to my understanding of Newtonian Mechanics.
 

elder999

El Oso de Dios!
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
9,920
Reaction score
1,435
Location
Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!
The "creating life" article states in it that scientists are a long way of from creating artificial life. Even in the article it states that they started with a living bacteria and then implanted a different genetic structure to "reboot" it. They did not create something from nothing.

And if you review Mr. Pastore's statements, he says that "we are no closer" to creating life, when,in fact,we are.....
 

Archangel M

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,555
Reaction score
154
I wouldn't say they would be creating life as much as they would be building it from a model.
 

Latest Discussions

Top