100% _ing _un!

chinaboxer

Green Belt
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Messages
171
Reaction score
3
Location
Los Angeles
i know i'll probably get alot of huff and guff from this post, but i wanted to share with everyone my thoughts on _ing _un, because i get so many emails every day on the subject.

almost all arguments on the subject can be traced back to everyone focusing on what's "different" between one method over the other. which ultimately leads to arguments over "my lineage is the right lineage.", "_ing _un is the right way to spell it", arguments over forms, shifting, terminology, training methods, politics, fighting etc..this really makes me shake my head wondering WTF happened to the _ing _un community? when we should be focusing on "what's similar" which are the core concepts.

how can any other martial arts in the world take us seriously when we can't even decide what's right, what's wrong, who's right, who's wrong, let alone what to call it!..so confusing. we have definitely become one of the more laughed at methods because of it all and that is why i've decided to post my thoughts.

it really does make me mad, because _ing _un is so frigin awesome! and this is coming from someone who has studied non stop in many martial arts methods since age 14, for over 25 years STRAIGHT, no breaks, no time off, always looking for the better, more efficient way. so here goes nothing..

the answer to every single question regarding _ing _un is really the answering of one simple observation.

does "it" adhere to the core concepts that make _ing _un work, ALL THE TIME. (all the time is the key part of the phrase)

if the answer is "yes" then it has to be 100% correct, because _ing _un is completely concept based and not a "style". but what i often see are folks that use the concepts, only when it fits their needs but not at other times when it doesn't, so they end up contradicting themselves.

this leads me ultimately to another question, "what do you feel are the core concepts of _ing _un?"
 

mook jong man

Senior Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
3,080
Reaction score
261
Location
Matsudo , Japan
i know i'll probably get alot of huff and guff from this post, but i wanted to share with everyone my thoughts on _ing _un, because i get so many emails every day on the subject.

Almost all arguments on the subject can be traced back to everyone focusing on what's "different" between one method over the other. Which ultimately leads to arguments over "my lineage is the right lineage.", "_ing _un is the right way to spell it", arguments over forms, shifting, terminology, training methods, politics, fighting etc..this really makes me shake my head wondering wtf happened to the _ing _un community? When we should be focusing on "what's similar" which are the core concepts.

How can any other martial arts in the world take us seriously when we can't even decide what's right, what's wrong, who's right, who's wrong, let alone what to call it!..so confusing. We have definitely become one of the more laughed at methods because of it all and that is why i've decided to post my thoughts.

It really does make me mad, because _ing _un is so frigin awesome! And this is coming from someone who has studied non stop in many martial arts methods since age 14, for over 25 years straight, no breaks, no time off, always looking for the better, more efficient way. So here goes nothing..

The answer to every single question regarding _ing _un is really the answering of one simple observation.

Does "it" adhere to the core concepts that make _ing _un work, all the time. (all the time is the key part of the phrase)

if the answer is "yes" then it has to be 100% correct, because _ing _un is completely concept based and not a "style". But what i often see are folks that use the concepts, only when it fits their needs but not at other times when it doesn't, so they end up contradicting themselves.

this leads me ultimately to another question, "what do you feel are the core concepts of _ing _un?"

  1. simplicity
  2. directness
  3. economy of movement
  4. minimum use of brute strength
  5. practicality
 

KamonGuy2

Master of Arts
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
1,884
Reaction score
19
Location
London, United Kingdom
i know i'll probably get alot of huff and guff from this post, but i wanted to share with everyone my thoughts on _ing _un, because i get so many emails every day on the subject.

almost all arguments on the subject can be traced back to everyone focusing on what's "different" between one method over the other. which ultimately leads to arguments over "my lineage is the right lineage.", "_ing _un is the right way to spell it", arguments over forms, shifting, terminology, training methods, politics, fighting etc..this really makes me shake my head wondering WTF happened to the _ing _un community? when we should be focusing on "what's similar" which are the core concepts.

how can any other martial arts in the world take us seriously when we can't even decide what's right, what's wrong, who's right, who's wrong, let alone what to call it!..so confusing. we have definitely become one of the more laughed at methods because of it all and that is why i've decided to post my thoughts.

it really does make me mad, because _ing _un is so frigin awesome! and this is coming from someone who has studied non stop in many martial arts methods since age 14, for over 25 years STRAIGHT, no breaks, no time off, always looking for the better, more efficient way. so here goes nothing..

the answer to every single question regarding _ing _un is really the answering of one simple observation.

does "it" adhere to the core concepts that make _ing _un work, ALL THE TIME. (all the time is the key part of the phrase)

if the answer is "yes" then it has to be 100% correct, because _ing _un is completely concept based and not a "style". but what i often see are folks that use the concepts, only when it fits their needs but not at other times when it doesn't, so they end up contradicting themselves.

this leads me ultimately to another question, "what do you feel are the core concepts of _ing _un?"

I love your passion.

The sad thing is,
Wing chun has only a few fixed moves. Unlike karate or BJJ, a lot of techniques in wing chun can be performed differently (different energy, different structure).

This means there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to discussing a lot of wing chun techniques. It comes down to what works for you.

Ip Man used to teach his students differently from each other which led to the misconception that they were all taught something special

Personally I love and embrace the differences between wing chun schools (different theories, often lead to the student having to think about the moves more).
If you look at it this way many arts will teach you a list of moves and make you do them in lines with just one explanation as to why they work. This is okay (and does produce good martial artists).

However, arts like wing chun, where there are several different ways of doing things, allows students a choice as well as a greater understanding about how wing chun works

Thats my two cents worth anyway. I think most of the bickering has started to die down over the past few years, and a lot of chunners are a lot more open minded
 

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
11,167
Reaction score
1,147
Location
Lives in Texas
Solid principles first, then individuality next within that frame work. should be that way with all MA. Sorry to butt in, but.........

1 Structure (body alignment)
2 breath (corresponding with technique)
3 movement (using the above will produce balance and power)

I always check out the Wing Chun threads and find them interesting.
 

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
i know i'll probably get alot of huff and guff from this post, but i wanted to share with everyone my thoughts on _ing _un, because i get so many emails every day on the subject.

almost all arguments on the subject can be traced back to everyone focusing on what's "different" between one method over the other. which ultimately leads to arguments over "my lineage is the right lineage.", "_ing _un is the right way to spell it", arguments over forms, shifting, terminology, training methods, politics, fighting etc..this really makes me shake my head wondering WTF happened to the _ing _un community? when we should be focusing on "what's similar" which are the core concepts.

how can any other martial arts in the world take us seriously when we can't even decide what's right, what's wrong, who's right, who's wrong, let alone what to call it!..so confusing. we have definitely become one of the more laughed at methods because of it all and that is why i've decided to post my thoughts.

it really does make me mad, because _ing _un is so frigin awesome! and this is coming from someone who has studied non stop in many martial arts methods since age 14, for over 25 years STRAIGHT, no breaks, no time off, always looking for the better, more efficient way. so here goes nothing..

the answer to every single question regarding _ing _un is really the answering of one simple observation.

does "it" adhere to the core concepts that make _ing _un work, ALL THE TIME. (all the time is the key part of the phrase)

if the answer is "yes" then it has to be 100% correct, because _ing _un is completely concept based and not a "style". but what i often see are folks that use the concepts, only when it fits their needs but not at other times when it doesn't, so they end up contradicting themselves.

this leads me ultimately to another question, "what do you feel are the core concepts of _ing _un?"

By focusing on what is common, the differences in each lineage would be much more pronounced.

I've studied/dabbled in a few arts Jin, and I can say that type of mentality is far from being _ing __un exculsive. Karate has it, TKD/TSD has it, BJJ has it to some degree, and JKD breeds it!!!


  1. Centerline
  2. Economy of Motion
  3. Trapping
  4. Sensitivity
  5. Relaxation
  6. Structure
 

zepedawingchun

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
582
Reaction score
17
Location
Moore, SC
1. Centerline theory
2. Immoveable elbow
3. Lin sil die dar theory
4. Economy of motion concept
5. Straight line attack
6. Trapping hands
7. Face to face concept
8. The four corners concept
9. Bridge hand concept
10. Triangle concept

Additionally,

Intercepting (jeet). Cutting. Natural wedge.

Stickyness (chi). Stay with what comes, follow through as it retreats, thrust forward as the hand is freed. Net of energy. Arrow drawn back in bow.

Flowing like Water.

Timing. Last second redirection after opponents commitment instead of stopping energy.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,225
Reaction score
5,724
Location
Covington, WA
I love your passion.

The sad thing is,
Wing chun has only a few fixed moves. Unlike karate or BJJ, a lot of techniques in wing chun can be performed differently (different energy, different structure).

This means there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to discussing a lot of wing chun techniques. It comes down to what works for you.
In what way do you think this is different from BJJ (or Karate)? Can you be more specific?
 
OP
C

chinaboxer

Green Belt
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Messages
171
Reaction score
3
Location
Los Angeles
before this post gets sidetracked..i wanted to clarify something. as many of you know that my website is dedicated to teaching wing chun and BJJ, although i have studied many other arts such as Jun Fan JKD, Shooto, Kali, Aikido, Judo, Okinawa Te, Hsing-I, Tai Chi and Bagua. but i have distilled my martial arts journey to only wing chun and BJJ at this present time.

the reason is because wing chun and BJJ share EXACTLY the same concepts, both wing chun and BJJ are completely concept based martial arts methods that rely on high level sensitivity and changes within the body. people will argue with me about this, but all i can say is "have you studied both EXTENSIVELY for a very very long time?" or are your opinions based on what you see on the UFC and Youtube Videos or the occasional grappling session with your older brother?

it goes back to the post about kali and wing chun, where i said to be very careful what you include into your wing chun or else it will hinder your progress..well, that's what i've done, the research, the homework, that's why i've deliberately simplified my training into wing chun and BJJ, because, at the highest levels, they are exactly the same.
 
OP
C

chinaboxer

Green Belt
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Messages
171
Reaction score
3
Location
Los Angeles
okay..back to the OP's post..oh wait..that's my post! :) i'm reading the replies and it's piqued my interest. this may be one of the most important posts regarding the future of _ing _un's future! ugh..i hate calling it that, now you guys realize why i just call it Chinese Boxing, to avoid all the crap.

i'm starting to realize that the core concepts of _ing _un are way too vague, and maybe..just maybe that's one of the reasons that this art gets so wayward. it's open to too much interpretation.

for instance, "economy of movement" is definitely a good concept, but couldn't that apply to ANY martial art? couldn't a boxer who uses a hook to counter a jab say the same thing? can we really call this a _ing _un concept?

in other words, i'm looking for the "CORE concepts", only the ESSENTIAL concepts that are unique to _ing _un. that are described in a detailed manner which makes it very clear of it's meaning, and not described by using "red boats" or "flowery spring" or any prose which can also be interpreted many different ways.

also remember that i am trying to find the core concepts that MUST be applied "at all times" during "all movements" at "every single moment" during a chunner's training.

this is my challenge to all of you and also myself! what are these core concepts unique to chunners and how can they be defined so that they are clear in their meaning? I'm dead serious, let's lock ourselves in a frigin room and not come out until we figure this out. because there is one thing we all agree on, and that is this.._ing _un is a concept based method, so isn't it important to figure this out? this is why in my tutorial, i am always trying to make things "clear", and avoid being vague. by using examples such as "wear the heavy backpack" or "lifting from the back of the shovel and not the front" etc..to help explain sometimes complex concepts.

this has been my number one challenge as a Chinese Boxing instructor and student, to simplify the art, to remove the nonsense, trim the fat and get to the "essence" of it. instead i see the reverse happening to _ing _un today, the curriculum becomes so ridiculously long, forcing students to remember counters to counters to counters. it seems so backwards to me.

i know you guys are getting tired of my ranting so i'll leave you with the words of Yip Man...

"With Kung Fu, the simpler, the better. Grandmaster Leung Jan's last words were, "I spent the whole of my life trying to make Wing Chun simpler, but I was not successful".
 
Last edited:

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
11,167
Reaction score
1,147
Location
Lives in Texas
Something told me I was in the wrong thread but I extended the hand anyways. :shrug:
 
OP
C

chinaboxer

Green Belt
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Messages
171
Reaction score
3
Location
Los Angeles
Solid principles (concepts) first, then individuality (differences in feel) next within that frame work. should be that way with all MA. Sorry to butt in, but.........

1 Structure (body alignment)
2 breath (corresponding with technique)
3 movement (using the above will produce balance and power)

I always check out the Wing Chun threads and find them interesting.
i don't even think he's a chunner but he's is 100% right! i added the parentheticals in his quote. THAT is exactly why the similarities (concepts) must be sorted out FIRST and then individuality or what we call the "differences" from chunner to chunner comes AFTER. so let's help each other out by figuring out what these "core concepts" are and define them, this would be the first major step in uniting the _ing _un community! IMO
 

mook jong man

Senior Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
3,080
Reaction score
261
Location
Matsudo , Japan
Before you can go comparing Wing Chun to different arts saying how the concepts are exactly the same one must realise that there are different lineages of Wing Chun.

From what I have gathered from my time on these forums some of these lineages and their ways of doing things for eg stance etc are so different from my own that they might as well be a whole different style altogether .

The issue of stance might not seem that important , but in terms of how the mechanics of the system works and how I can exert pressure on my opponent through that stance make it vitally important

You seem to be making comparisons based on a very American-centric point of view of Wing Chun.

Yes other arts may strive for economy of movement within the context of their own style , but none will take it to the Nth degree as Wing Chun has , because nothing will beat a straight line from my centreline to your centreline.

Someone mentioned breathing corresponding with technique , in our lineage we are taught to just breathe naturally.

A lot of different arts have sensitivity drills so in that respect Wing Chun and BJJ have common ground but beyond that I don't think there is too much that is similar.

I am no BJJ expert but I have done Wing Chun for quite awhile , it is with the principle of minimum use of brute strength that I see there is a parting of the ways.

In BJJ I see a lot of muscle contracting type movements , thighs clamped around torsos , biceps contracting and elbows squeezing together to cinch up chokes , trying to pull on arms for arm bars etc , whilst they are very efficient in what they do an element of strength is involved.

In contrast Wing Chun apart from when striking , the optimum angle will always be maintained in the arms , if anything there will only be expansion of the angles , Wing Chun mainly depends on the skeletal system itself to support its technques.

When movements are executed the angle of the joint is maintained and the whole mass of the limb does the work not small muscle groups.
At the higher levels of Wing Chun in our lineage this brings us into very esoteric territory where hardly any muscular effort is required at all and the techniques are powered by Nim Lik ( Wing Chun Thought Force ).
For those of us in the TST lineage attaining Nim Lik is the ultimate goal of our training , to be able to generate immense power in attacking and defensive techniques without muscular effort.

This force comes from the brain and is cultivated by proper training in Sil Lum Tao form with the internal contraction Tei Gong , at an elementary level it is the ability to relax muscle groups at will and transfer ones body weight into any part of your attacking or defending limb.
For the attacker it feels once contact is made that he is not just contending with your defending limb but the weight of your whole body.

Now people might dismiss this as some sort of chi ******** , but it is not , it is nothing fanciful it is just the result of years of training in Sil Lum Tao form learning to fully concentrate the mind , fully relaxing the muscles in conjunction with the proper Wing Chun body mechanics and stance.
 

BloodMoney

Green Belt
Joined
Jul 26, 2010
Messages
153
Reaction score
4
Location
Christchurch, NZ
Choy Siu Kwong called our branch VC instead of WC because he said WC stood for water closet! Not all reasons for uses of different names are that relevant, many times its just a guy trying to make his school distinguishable from others in the area etc. Here we call "our" line of clubs, ones that originated from Choy Siu Kwong/Greg Tsoi and Kevin Earle, VCK (Ving Chun Kuen) so that everyone thats under the same banner knows they can go to affiliate schools etc.

I call the art Wing Chun when talking generically, but Ving Tsun or VCK or NZWC or whatever the particular academy/lineage wants to be called individually.

this leads me ultimately to another question, "what do you feel are the core concepts of _ing _un?"

-Conservation of energy
-Economy of movement
-Simultaneous attack and defense

I see most others as specifics of the more broader terms above really.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,225
Reaction score
5,724
Location
Covington, WA
I am no BJJ expert but I have done Wing Chun for quite awhile...
I'm enjoying the thread, but this pretty much says it all.

Since you are admittedly not a BJJ expert, why don't you stick to talking about what wing chun is and isn't and leave other styles of it?
 

mook jong man

Senior Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
3,080
Reaction score
261
Location
Matsudo , Japan
I'm enjoying the thread, but this pretty much says it all.

Since you are admittedly not a BJJ expert, why don't you stick to talking about what wing chun is and isn't and leave other styles of it?

Oh , Ok so I'm not permitted to have observations on other martial systems.

As a Wing Chun exponent of 20 years and instructor I do have a little understanding of how power is generated and the strengths and anatomical weaknesses of the human body.

So with that knowledge I can look at other systems and see how the force is genereated and how it is applied , I may not know the exact ins and outs of the technique but I will have a rough idea.

This is an insight you gain from years of Wing Chun training.
 

bully

Purple Belt
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
389
Reaction score
10
Location
Jersey
I'm enjoying the thread, but this pretty much says it all.

Since you are admittedly not a BJJ expert, why don't you stick to talking about what wing chun is and isn't and leave other styles of it?

You obviously are Steve so why dont you chip in to either back up or dismiss what Jin and MJM have said about BJJ so we get your take on BJJ and WC? Rather than just tell someone to shut up??

There must be something in it as Kevin Chan also pairs them together and he knows his onions.

I dont know enough about the subtleties of WC but I feel it is often over complicated to stop people learning the system too quickly and for financial gain in some individuals systems. When I say learn , I mean learn and not master.
 

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
Before you can go comparing Wing Chun to different arts saying how the concepts are exactly the same one must realise that there are different lineages of Wing Chun.

From what I have gathered from my time on these forums some of these lineages and their ways of doing things for eg stance etc are so different from my own that they might as well be a whole different style altogether .

The issue of stance might not seem that important , but in terms of how the mechanics of the system works and how I can exert pressure on my opponent through that stance make it vitally important

You seem to be making comparisons based on a very American-centric point of view of Wing Chun.

Yes other arts may strive for economy of movement within the context of their own style , but none will take it to the Nth degree as Wing Chun has , because nothing will beat a straight line from my centreline to your centreline.

Someone mentioned breathing corresponding with technique , in our lineage we are taught to just breathe naturally.

A lot of different arts have sensitivity drills so in that respect Wing Chun and BJJ have common ground but beyond that I don't think there is too much that is similar.

I am no BJJ expert but I have done Wing Chun for quite awhile , it is with the principle of minimum use of brute strength that I see there is a parting of the ways.

In BJJ I see a lot of muscle contracting type movements , thighs clamped around torsos , biceps contracting and elbows squeezing together to cinch up chokes , trying to pull on arms for arm bars etc , whilst they are very efficient in what they do an element of strength is involved.

In contrast Wing Chun apart from when striking , the optimum angle will always be maintained in the arms , if anything there will only be expansion of the angles , Wing Chun mainly depends on the skeletal system itself to support its technques.

When movements are executed the angle of the joint is maintained and the whole mass of the limb does the work not small muscle groups.
At the higher levels of Wing Chun in our lineage this brings us into very esoteric territory where hardly any muscular effort is required at all and the techniques are powered by Nim Lik ( Wing Chun Thought Force ).
For those of us in the TST lineage attaining Nim Lik is the ultimate goal of our training , to be able to generate immense power in attacking and defensive techniques without muscular effort.

This force comes from the brain and is cultivated by proper training in Sil Lum Tao form with the internal contraction Tei Gong , at an elementary level it is the ability to relax muscle groups at will and transfer ones body weight into any part of your attacking or defending limb.
For the attacker it feels once contact is made that he is not just contending with your defending limb but the weight of your whole body.

Now people might dismiss this as some sort of chi ******** , but it is not , it is nothing fanciful it is just the result of years of training in Sil Lum Tao form learning to fully concentrate the mind , fully relaxing the muscles in conjunction with the proper Wing Chun body mechanics and stance.


MJM, not all of the guards in BJJ are the closed guard, which is what you see mostly in the UFC. It is easier to use and defend at the beginning/MMA levels of BJJ. If you look at the open guard, butterfly guard, or maybe even others I don't know of, the bottom have of the body is actually doing Chi Gerk and the upper is doing Chi Sau. BJJ guys are using sensitivity in their legs and body to monitor, feel, and follow their opponent. Many of their limb attacks begin with off centering/disrupting your opponents base, and body structure must be good or their submissions will not work. Personally, in my eternally beginner level Wing Chun (under 2 yrs in the art) I see a lot of benefit Wing Chun brings to my grappling, although I cannot call my grappling BJJ so much as JKD or MMA grappling. Also, the chokes and locks do not take hardly any strength at all whatsoever, rather using arms or legs as levers. All forms wrestling do, but not the Japanese Jujutsu derived Brazillian Jiujitsu. Smaller people can use it to overcome larger and stronger opponents on the ground....kind of like that one Chinese style from Southern China popularized by Bruce Lee and Master Ip Man.

These days, I look at the grappling as something fun to do and GREAT exercise. I enjoy it as much as a great game of chess or FreeCell or Stratego and if I find myself on the ground in a tough spot, I can use it to get back to my feet and biugee the snot outta some dudes throat and eyeballs or stay on the ground and do it! :ultracool
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
749
I am a product of the LT/EB branch, though no longer affiliated with either.
Much of the de-simplifying of WT has everything to do with money.
I think, what started out as a way of categorizing/ organizing the system, snowballed into an enormous money making pyramid.

In HK, LT originally had 10 levels of acievment.
When it got to Europe, KK added 12 student grades to the forefront. Also added were 2 more instructor grades, for a total of 24 levels.
Well, with all these new grades, you now need cirriculum to fill.

I now study with a former HK student of LT, and for the last few years it has been my goal to simplify and strip away all these artificial trappings.
No easy task.
 

Latest Discussions

Top