Twin Fist
Grandmaster
i was gonna say, since there will never be a 10-12 year old I consider a legit black belt, I cant go any further into the "what if"
10 or 12 year old opens school
- Thread starter tshadowchaser
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No... simply no.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #23
My point of this thread was and is:
If we promote these kids to black belt then why are you afraid to study under them. If they are not qualified to instruct an adult or other kids why the hell are they being promoted to black belt.
I still say the young person could open a club at his school or even in his garage. A club dose not come under the same rules and regulations as a school/business. So If your organization says this person is a qualified black belt of 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree then why would you not study under them?
Most have said NO they would not study under a child that young so to those that said NO and belong to a TKD organization or any other organization that allow black belts that young what are you saying about the beliefs you have in the ranking of your organizations and your beliefs that these belts should be awarded.
If we promote these kids to black belt then why are you afraid to study under them. If they are not qualified to instruct an adult or other kids why the hell are they being promoted to black belt.
I still say the young person could open a club at his school or even in his garage. A club dose not come under the same rules and regulations as a school/business. So If your organization says this person is a qualified black belt of 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree then why would you not study under them?
Most have said NO they would not study under a child that young so to those that said NO and belong to a TKD organization or any other organization that allow black belts that young what are you saying about the beliefs you have in the ranking of your organizations and your beliefs that these belts should be awarded.
Well for me it's easy & I guess I'm the Devil's Advocate or the Lone Ranger here.
We don't have ranks in our school. You're either the teacher or not. Your place in class as a student is either junior or senior to somebody depending on when you started & they started. You earn your "title" through experience & years until you're told to go teach. Then you get "the title".
I guarantee there's never been a 12 year old in our school (ever really) that would ever qualify for the title "Sifu".
We don't have ranks in our school. You're either the teacher or not. Your place in class as a student is either junior or senior to somebody depending on when you started & they started. You earn your "title" through experience & years until you're told to go teach. Then you get "the title".
I guarantee there's never been a 12 year old in our school (ever really) that would ever qualify for the title "Sifu".
OP
- Thread Starter
- #25
Nor in any I have studied in and I have also been in the schools with all those starting before you being considered higher in the class order until you are a teacher
Folks forget about the legal issues of a kid opening a business and concentrate on the question "would you study under him/her" WHY? WHY NOT?
Folks forget about the legal issues of a kid opening a business and concentrate on the question "would you study under him/her" WHY? WHY NOT?
Just like a family... can't beat that way IMO with a stick.
Ok skipping the legalities... the answer is still no. The kid may have more technical knowledge (maybe), but the kid has no life experience to temper & mold the necessary skills to teach the art.
Sheldon since I have three sons that are BB under the Kukkiwon and they are childern one is 14,12,11 I will give my take and why my answer.
Your question is would I train under a child and I said no if he was the only instructor there. I would listen to a Junior BB about techs as long as they are supervised by an adult BB like at my school. The KKW issue poom ranks which are consider a junior when they hit 16 they are elligible for a dan rank if they past the test I give to all dan ranks, remember I said eligible not automactically get to test. It is up to each person. I believe a child can earn a junior BB and still not be able to teach or open a club, Zachary my oldest is talented and you know this but he does not have the mentality at his early teenage years to run a club of his own, able to help with classes and run and help with out little guys and girls yes but to be able to handle adults sometimes and sometimes not, just the other day he said Master Stoker can you come and hep me with so and so he was an adult that was asking certain question about a tech that zachary knows the answer but was imtimitated to give the answer because the adult was trying to bait him into the wrong answer. So my answer stands with no I would not join a club that had a child as the head instructor but would listen to a child that was a Junior BB under a head instructor helping with the class.
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Is it possible for a kid that age to run a school? IMHO no.
Is it possible for the kids parents to own the school, while this "rising star" teaches? Yes, but anyone with any common sense would stay the hell away. In all honesty, I doubt the kid would have any practical skill or knowledge. Even if he was some 'star' would it really be anything useful or would it fall into the XMA stuff? I'm thinking the latter, and frankly thats more show than anything else IMO.
To answer Sheldons last post about why we'd give them a BB but not trust them to train under...simple...thats why I don't believe in giving a BB to people under a certain age.
Now, I've used asst. instructors when I used to teach on a regular basis. However, these kids were usually older and they did not do any teaching. They simply went over the material with the lower ranked student. The teaching or correction of anything was done by an adult BB. I had parents come up to me telling me that they were not comfortable with a child teaching their child. I agreed with them, and explained that they child was not teaching, simply assisting. I or another adult BB, would make our rounds, esuring that everyone was reviewed by us. That usually put everyones mind at ease.
Is it possible for the kids parents to own the school, while this "rising star" teaches? Yes, but anyone with any common sense would stay the hell away. In all honesty, I doubt the kid would have any practical skill or knowledge. Even if he was some 'star' would it really be anything useful or would it fall into the XMA stuff? I'm thinking the latter, and frankly thats more show than anything else IMO.
To answer Sheldons last post about why we'd give them a BB but not trust them to train under...simple...thats why I don't believe in giving a BB to people under a certain age.
Now, I've used asst. instructors when I used to teach on a regular basis. However, these kids were usually older and they did not do any teaching. They simply went over the material with the lower ranked student. The teaching or correction of anything was done by an adult BB. I had parents come up to me telling me that they were not comfortable with a child teaching their child. I agreed with them, and explained that they child was not teaching, simply assisting. I or another adult BB, would make our rounds, esuring that everyone was reviewed by us. That usually put everyones mind at ease.
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
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Ok, I think I get what the OP is saying:
Don't promote a student, ANY student, to blackbelt status if you do not feel comfortable learning directly from that student, or if you do not feel confident in their teaching ability.
In my opinion, this is what the Jr. BlackBelt program would solve...a Jr. BlackBelt is not a full blackbelt...not until they reach the age and maturity to become a full blackbelt, more than likely closer to 16 or 17.
While 16 or 17 is by no means adulthood, they still have a firmer grasp on teaching a martial art to a student than a 12 year old would.
Don't promote a student, ANY student, to blackbelt status if you do not feel comfortable learning directly from that student, or if you do not feel confident in their teaching ability.
In my opinion, this is what the Jr. BlackBelt program would solve...a Jr. BlackBelt is not a full blackbelt...not until they reach the age and maturity to become a full blackbelt, more than likely closer to 16 or 17.
While 16 or 17 is by no means adulthood, they still have a firmer grasp on teaching a martial art to a student than a 12 year old would.
kidswarrior
Senior Master
I can only say, Ditto.
clfsean said:
These two posts make the abstract points I would have made. As for the practical matter, we don't promote anyone to BB who isn't 'ready to fight with men' (able to physically fight off a male attacker), so that's usually minimum age 16, maybe more. While I can and do learn things from 12 year olds every day (much as Kacey does), MA's are different in that I must be able to count on what I've learned every time I go out the door. My health and well being may depend on it. I want to feel the technique applied by the teacher and gauge for myself that it would work if I practice it relentlessly and correctly (his way).
To me there is another level at work in this question that has not been addressed. Just because someone has earned a blackbelt rank does not automatically make them capable of teaching. There is another whole skill set that is involved with teaching others how to do the things that you know that has nothing to do with your ability to do them. These skills must also be learned one way or another before anyone can be an effective instructor.
Having a young blackbelt teaching as the sole instructor of a school does not hold the same feelings of trust or authority that an adult would have. Does that mean they could never teach a class? No, but they would need the backing of an adult to enable them to have that authority.
Having a young blackbelt teaching as the sole instructor of a school does not hold the same feelings of trust or authority that an adult would have. Does that mean they could never teach a class? No, but they would need the backing of an adult to enable them to have that authority.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #32
well said Mimir
So far I have seen no one say they would study under one of these kids if that young person was the only instructor
This thread is defiantly open to more thoughts on the subject Pro or con
so I'll throw in another thought to chew on:
What if htis is the only person teaching for, let say for the argument, 100 miles. I know hard to belive in this day in age but lets consider it
So far I have seen no one say they would study under one of these kids if that young person was the only instructor
This thread is defiantly open to more thoughts on the subject Pro or con
so I'll throw in another thought to chew on:
What if htis is the only person teaching for, let say for the argument, 100 miles. I know hard to belive in this day in age but lets consider it
If all I had was a 12 to teach me something because he was all I had, umm I would train with him and help him teach me with the use of DVD's and Video's. For me to say this I am only admitting it is better to train than not train at all.
BrandonLucas
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I agree with this 100%. I would train with a 12 year old simply so that I could train at all. I would still want to use other means of training, like books and videos, as Terry is saying.
I would a) travel the 100 mi. or b) not train at all.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #37
got to admit I travel that far to study and there are many, many schools in between that have adult instructors
I'd grab a friend and we'd see what works, and develop what we could, and approach the matter scientifically. The one notable exception might be if the kid had been training his entire life and the majority of that was against full grown adults, AND was no more than 6 inches shorter than me and could be ME in a fight.
The friend thing is the more likely choice.
Hooking up and working with the kid if there were few or no alternatives would also depend on if I knew them personally. If I had first hand knowledge of their abilities and understanding of the art, then I would probably be more inclined to let them teach me. If I didn't know them, then I would be much more skeptical of their ability to teach me.
"What if" is a great game to play in all sorts of situations, and people can add "what if's" to this, and any other embellishment on this scenario they like... but realistically, if I were an inexperienced beginner, I, as an adult, would be unlikely to start a martial art under a pre-teen, no matter how physically skilled, and would be even less likely to have my child start under that same pre-teen. As as experienced martial artist, I can see situations in which I would train with a pre-teen - although I'd be unlikely to have that pre-teen as my primary instructor - but as a beginner? Most adults in the US would, I think, be unwilling to train under a child for reasons of ego, if nothing else, and would be equally unwilling to leave their own children to train under a child, for safety reasons - even if the instructor is overseen by an adult, I wouldn't want my child taught MA by a pre-teen any more than I would want him/her taught gymnastics, or ice skating, or any other physically demanding and potentially dangerous skill: a 10-12 year old, no matter how skilled, does not have the life experience necessary to differentiate instruction for individual needs, nor to clearly avoid injury to students through incorrectly performed actions.
As an experienced martial artist, I will learn from anyone I can - but I have the experience and the base knowledge necessary to protect myself from injury, to understand how to integrate new skills into my existing ones, to understand the implications and potential uses of new skills whether they are taught explicitly or not... but I would still prefer an instructor with a greater amount of experience, in MA specifically and in life in general, for the reasons given above. Were no other instructor available for a particular art that I wanted to learn, then yes, I would go to a pre-teen if necessary to learn it - but it wouldn't be my first choice, and I would look for alternatives, in terms of instructors and/or similar arts first.
As an experienced martial artist, I will learn from anyone I can - but I have the experience and the base knowledge necessary to protect myself from injury, to understand how to integrate new skills into my existing ones, to understand the implications and potential uses of new skills whether they are taught explicitly or not... but I would still prefer an instructor with a greater amount of experience, in MA specifically and in life in general, for the reasons given above. Were no other instructor available for a particular art that I wanted to learn, then yes, I would go to a pre-teen if necessary to learn it - but it wouldn't be my first choice, and I would look for alternatives, in terms of instructors and/or similar arts first.
