Why do Westerners train in exotic unrealistic weapons and ignore practical ones like baseball bats?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Bullsherdog, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    Admin's Note:

    I've cleaned out a lot of the posts that were starting to cause a ruckuss. Please keep this discussion civil.

    While you do have the courtesy of attacking someone's message, attacking the messenger is flat-out forbidden, and will result in the issuance of warning points.
     
  2. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Edit: @Grenadier Apologies, didnt see the notice until i posted this. If it breaks any rules.





    My issues stem here: Who determines who is a expert? Do they have evidence of said expertise? Are they economcially viable? Are they viable time wise? Do they actually teach the skills you want to know?*


    *Dont respond with "its about what you need, not want", that is a cherry pick. If i conceal carry a handgun and want to learn to use it i will seek out firearm couses for the carrying and usage of a handgun. it doesnt matter if i "need" unarmed skills, i will be seeking out predominately pistol based instruction. (which some courses do contained unarmed skils) Edit: And what somone needs is based on their own personal situation to a large degree, which only THEY can know.


    Now for individual replies to points:

    I dispute who is a expert and who determines that. I dont dispute some people know more than me, but a arbitary status you can give yourself really doesnt matter to me, i still want a explination of said points. Also "experts" can be wrong, everyone is fallible. Edit: The term expert itself is partly subjective to the knowledge of a subject by all parties. Eg one can be a expert in alegebra because they know the basics to one who doesnt know it.

    I dont belive i stated they are bad? Nor do i dispute if you have good tutution the more you do that the better you become.

    But it falls down to, do you have good tutution? Pragmatic weapon training isnt as common as unarmed skills. And classes are very much over rated. People over estimate how long it takes to learn how to use them to a acceptable degree to defend yourself against the common criminal. It doesnt take you 8 years of unarmed study to learn to use a stick.And then thats a 8 year gamble they actually teach you to fight with it and not just twirl it around.


    I dont, i am rightfully skeptial of this sector. Also evidence when that does happen, again everyone is infallible. A point i made a year ago that might be incorrect isnt relivent now, deal with it as and when it happens. Is what i mean by the latter part. (also not the time or place to bring up a point i said earlier to prove this point, stick with this argument, i dont dispute the point i am fallible)

    Above comment plus: How do you know i have not put them to the test or taken them from a accurate source? Do you have anything better than the fundemental point of "you dont train so i cant have a opinion"? (Even though i have, and have stated i actively do "train") Plus i also actively practice thrusting a staff and advancing and retreating in a guard with it, is that not training? That is a lot more practice than what most other people do. Would that be "training" because i paid somone £500 to show me how to go into the guard and thrust a stick? When i can do both acceptably now?
    And surprise surprise, weapon martial arts and practice is uncommon. It dies and comes back peroidically but it is still vastly underpopulated comapred to unarmed. And of the weapon ones, only X amount of them train and use weapons viable to the modern world and arent hisotrical. Or even about proper fighting anymore. (and no one can claim they are a expert in how to fight with a spear, thats a obsolete weapon)


    If i were to tell you i did practice with a bat, would you belive me anyway for it to be of any point to relay or consiquence to relay? I cited a source from a fairly proven comabtive system about a potentionally useful method to use a bat in confined spaces and in general other than swinging it. Is that not a valid point because i relayed it could work when applied to a bat?

    Edit: I also didnt expect anyone to take my word for it, so if they wanted to try it out and had a bat and the safety equipment to try it out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  3. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Just responding to this point, as I don't feel like getting involved in the whole argument. If you're focus is weapons-based training, don't go train somewhere that's primarily unarmed, where you will spend 8 years unarmed before seeing their weapon stuff. Go to somewhere that plays a large focus on weapons. At my current school, you pick up either a stick or a knife (or more likely both) the first day of training. You will probably see people sparring that first day as well. You can make your own judgments before you have to put money or time into it.
     
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  4. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge 2nd Black Belt

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    Rat, you joined a forum full of people with decades of training, experience, and credentials, but the volume of authoritive claims that you produce vastly outpaces all of them collectively.

    Now, you're challenging the legitimacy of anyone/everyone's expertise and at the same time suggesting that your on-line research makes you equally or more credible in this field.

    Does that seem even a little bit absurd to you? It's coming across that way to me and apparently, I'm not alone.
     
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  5. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I picked this part specifically. You don't know enough to determine who is an expert and who isn't. I don't just mean in general. I mean that you, specifically, don't have the first-hand knowledge of martial arts training enough to make that determination. You hide behind articles and supposed logic, but it's all excuses to keep yourself from training. You've deluded yourself into thinking that training is optional to build skill.

    I remember the very first post you made on this site, where you said the hook punch is a bad punch because you can hurt your hand. This was based on you trying to learn how to do a hook punch yourself, doing it wrong and hurting yourself. Rather than seek training on how to hook punch successfully, you just said it was a bad punch in the article you wrote on the various types of punches. As far as I can tell, this is the ceiling you can get by training on your own. It's something we've been saying for years to you now, but you're still too stubborn to let anyone else try and teach you how to fight.

    Most people who teach martial arts did not give themselves an arbitrary status. Most people who teach martial arts have decades of experience and certifications from their instructor or their organization, proving they are qualified to teach what they are teaching. Most people who teach martial arts have learned how to teach martial arts, and what it takes for their students to be successful. To quote the Farmer's Insurance commercial, we know a thing or two, because we've seen a thing or two. Your experience in martial arts training is so lacking, you don't even know what you don't know.

    Now, please don't take this as an insult. I'm just trying to help you humble yourself enough that you can actually go and get training. I think a lot of us on this forum have. You seem to love the idea of martial arts, based on your post count and the length you put into each of them. But you gotta train. MartialTalk, YouTube, and Google aren't enough. You gotta put your feet on the mat and the gloves on your hands, you've got to square off against people that are better than you, you've got to have someone who can look at your technique and tell you how you can do it faster, stronger, and safer.

    Even I, as a 3rd degree black belt, still learn things from my Master, like tips on how to increase the power of some of my kicks. A lot of these are things I probably wouldn't have learned by horsing around with my friends. I've got 10 years of being trained, and I still need the advice of people with more expertise than me. Are there some people who are higher rank than me who don't know as much as me? Yes. Are there some people running schools that aren't very good teachers or martial artists? Yes. But the existence of bad schools doesn't warrant a blanket excuse that you shouldn't train martial arts because the teachers are bad.

    It's an excuse, either borne of arrogance or laziness, or possibly both. Arrogance in that you think you're smarter than all of the experts. Laziness in that you don't want to actually train, and are quite happy just being a keyboard ninja. This excuse that the expert might not be that great is just an excuse that's holding you back. If you have as much passion for martial arts as your posts here suggest, then set aside your hubris and actually take classes. Learn enough that you know what you don't know, and then learn that as well.

    I've got 10 years in TKD, 4 years in HKD, and 3 years of wrestling. I'm currently training TKD and HKD. I lament the fact that I don't have time in my schedule to also train boxing, wrestling, muay thai, wing chun, kali, judo, and bjj in addition to what I'm training now. I wish I had the opportunity to learn from as many experts as I could, so I could have as much knowledge, technique, and experience as I could possibly get. For you, I wish you would find one expert that you could trust enough to actually teach you.

    As to the last part about algebra...you could still learn from someone who knows the basics better than you.
     
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  6. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Fully agree, its just more uncommon to find weapons about. (to which i would do doing weapons if i had a place to do them at)

    Edit: I partly added a tangent about how they are uncommon in comparision. Which to be fair, if you know how i write on this forum at all, you should know i go into rants and tagents midway through a point. :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  7. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    I dont belive i am? To any of those claims.


    I write in a neutral way which can give off a certain tone. And i dont belive i have claimed i am a authority nor rival one? Nor brought up anyones legitimachy here directly in the context of they havent personally done X years doing Y.

    I brought up how i am skeptical, and experts can be fallible and how does one judge a expert. and also how if you hold the status of expert doesnt matter to if i discuss soemthing with you, if you dont relay the point. Given the context to the subject matter of this forum, how you judge a expert and who determiens who is one seems fairly valid.


    PRIVATE MESSAGE me with a quote of the statement(s) that trouble you/give you that impression i might have mis worded something. I dont see much of a need to go that far off topic in this. And it seems easier to go into detail via Private messages. ( i might start a conversation with you)
     
  8. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    In this thread you've said you are the one who determines who is an expert. In other threads you've argued over the terminology of an art. There's also quite a few times you talk about a subject as if you're an expert, when it's clear you've only read an article or seen a video on it.

    You also brought this up as a counter-point to the general suggestion that training is important.
     
  9. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge 2nd Black Belt

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    No thanks. As someone who has trained in this field for...~25 years AND had enough real world experience to regret a good bit of it, I feel like I've given you good advice. I expect that you will ignore it and 100% of the rest of the advice you get from people offering it and continue doing exactly what you do. I don't think it's going to work out the way that you think it is, assuming that you even have a plan, but you're free to live your life and it really doesn't effect me one way or another.
     
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  10. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Fair enough then.
     
  11. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You sometimes state things as factual when they are not definitively factual. If you'd like, I can point it out each time I see it going forwards. I'll just quote it without any words afterwards. I'd go through and point it out from this thread, but honestly I've read through it a couple times at this point and don't feel like going through all of it yet again just to find examples.
     
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  12. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Feel free to DM examples/eleborations. Like i said its probably a typex issue.
     
  13. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    You get the examples as you post them. I've seen you called out on it time and time again. This can't come as a surprise to you.
     
  14. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    I dont belive i did? I asked "who determines who is a expert" which can be re worded into "how do you decide who/what a expert is" . i never said only i judge who a expert is. I also didnt state only you judge who one is. Nor did i directly point fingers at anyone of not being one who claims to be one. (i might have implied unintetionally, to any party there) This is a very expansive argument which i think can be saved for another day and thread. Whcih i think we can both agree on.

    I dont have such a view, you need to practice. I eleborated my views on the matter to be, sometimes its overated and overstated. And the training relies on where you get it from, and sometimes you can replicate the training methods at home effectively. Im going to cite Kenjutsu here. Sparring in that isnt as common as it used to be, so the classes are effectively you doing solo and paired drill. Solo drill consitists of X amount of strikes and blocks and the logic there is to drill a large amount of people in the basics of how to use the weapon so-so effectively as fast as possible. You can, more than likely do that at home sufficently to be good enough to beat somone who hasnt done it. That is as far as i know how Kenjutsu or some styles of it work, or worked. (there are others like it, just for diffrent weapons/unarmed)
    I personally am a big beliver in sparring and its uses, but second best is paired forms. if you can spend time sparring, do it.

    Not all bad habits arent that much of a problem if you are talking about defending yourself against a standard criminal who probbly would run if you fight back. (as stated expetions to rules exist, not all of them do, and not in all sitautions) Nor is not having perfect technique.

    Like you can learn how to do a dumbell curl via videos/diagrams, and thats how i learnt how to do a dumbell curl.


    Do those two eleborations of said points help you in anyway?
     
  15. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I dispute who is a expert and who determines that. I dont dispute some people know more than me, but a arbitary status you can give yourself really doesnt matter to me, i still want a explination of said points. Also "experts" can be wrong, everyone is fallible. Edit: The term expert itself is partly subjective to the knowledge of a subject by all parties. Eg one can be a expert in alegebra because they know the basics to one who doesnt know it.

    Right here, you're basically assuming experts just nominate themselves, and saying that you have the authority on who is and isn't an expert.

    Are you taking lessons from an instructor? Or are you doing this on your own?
     
  16. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge 2nd Black Belt

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    I should really stop, but...

    How much time have you spent sparring? How much time have you spent in "paired forms" (whatever that is)? Where does your expertise come from regarding violent responses to criminals?

    The impression you give off here is that you have zero legitimate experience or training with any of these things. Yet you spend a lot of time appearing to lecture martial artists, teachers, and even LEOs on these subjects...and your mind is completely closed...so I'm not even sure what the point of all of this is.

    It's exhausting.
     
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  17. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    In what context are you asking? You replied to several points with that and it illudes me exactly what you mean. in terms of what i wrote about kenjutsu, that was a example of how you could home study decently with access to a training partner and media on the subeject for how to cut etc.

    Just to re iterate, this is me stating you can get a acceptable standard via it.

    The bicep curl i learnt on my own only using diagrams and videos. The point of me stating that is, do i need to have gone and paid for a personal trainer to learn that? or can we agree some things you can pick up by yourself, or at least some people can.
     
  18. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge 2nd Black Belt

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    How about this:

    Bicep curls are reasonably simple and yeah, you can probably learn one from an illustration. But, that doesn't make you an athlete or a body builder and you probably shouldn't assert your expertise over a bunch of certified trainers.

    Also, ever wonder why professional athletes still have trainers? Couldn't they also just learn on-their-own?

    If you want to learn on-line go ahead, but please stop telling us how things are. You're not going to convince any of us and someone who may not know any better might mistake your confidence for expertise.
     
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  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Regarding weapons: to a large extent they are intuitive. Yes, you can figure out how to be dangerous with them, without getting instruction. But your knowledge will be limited, your technique will be inefficient, and you may create bad habits that lead to injuring yourself. Watch your fingers and toes!!

    So when the zombie apocalypse arrives, go ahead and pick up that spear or sword or machete or tomahawk if you find one, and use it on the zombies. It would be foolish not to. You would be eaten for sure if you refuse to pick up a weapon that presents itself, on the grounds that youve never been taught how to use it. But in your spare time, work on figuring out how to use it better. If you meet another survivor who can teach to to use it better, follow his lessons.

    But yeah, use the damn thing; it’s fairly intuitive.
     
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  20. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    So we fundementally agree, you can learn certain things from Diagrams and media. (text/videos etc) Plenty of people do self teach themselves gym things. As for atheltes, i can think of several reasons why they have trainers, one of which is they are provided to them as part of a contracts etc. And im sure many atheltes and especially body builders start off by self teaching themselves things if they didnt get picked up in school or something.

    Also i have "take nobodies word for it" in my signature, its not like im not actively telling everyone to be skeptical of everything. :p (on every post i make)


    Oh and for earlier, pair kata. Or pending style just kata. it might have a special name in some styles, but it varies. Its just a set pattern of movement with 2 people, instead of one. So for example, one does a straight punch to the face, the other employs a specfic defensive action, then counter move. As far as i gather and have been told, japanese styles tend to do kata with 2 people, okinawan ones did the main solo practice. (just as a quite big and simple generalisation)123
     

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