Why do Westerners train in exotic unrealistic weapons and ignore practical ones like baseball bats?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Bullsherdog, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Different argument.

    But let's say he is using a baseball bat like a rifle. So held low barrel strike but strike kind of thing. You could hold a hallway like that.
     
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  2. Rat

    Rat 2nd Black Belt

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    Ignoring the insult,i stated "with training", you will learn the dyanmics of the weapon and be able to fight with it better. I would also state some playful sparring would probbly teach you it or trying to use it as a weapon in shadow fighting would. (lesser degree)

    I also didnt dispute any of that about baseball bats having blindspots etc, nor do i belive i over estimated its use's as a swinging weapon. You just arent going to have a fun day if you get one over your head. (which happens enough, and the swing is null if you adopt a diffrent way of fighting with it)


    Lastly, personal prefrence cant dispute that. Just for the record didnt ask for prefrence of weapon. Nor state mine. But i will now, i would prefer a friction locked baton for portable cyaldrical objects. (not including toches and things that can double as weapons)


    i dont have one to test it, but i belive it would be functional. And thats what i was trying to explain and show. (i also didnt say i would use a baseball bat like a rifle just i would just longer sticks like that)

    Also i fully agree.

    Edit: i stated swings would be a issue in confined spaces, so going off that, you would want to adopt a diffrent means of fighting with it. I cited defendu stick work predominately for confined spaces as a seeming useful method to adopt. but YOU CAN use the methods i cited for confined spaces in more open spaces, if its better or not seems subjective and down to personal prefrence.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  3. Rat

    Rat 2nd Black Belt

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    A valuble assest to the security sector. :p

    (couldnt resist sorry)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  4. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    So you first recognize you need training to understand the weapon. Then you say you don't even have the weapon to test if your theories work, let alone the training or experience. So I have to ask - what are you basing your knowledge off of? Are you basing it off of articles you read, videos you saw on youtube? Movies? Or just your own imagination?

    "Just sorta a psychopath", "nihilistic and cynical", yeah you sound like the baddie.
     
  5. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    a lee enfield rifle say weighs nearly 10 lbs, a bbb less than 2lb, there not really comparable as poking weapon and the bbb is somewhat shorter, a rifle will break a rib, a bbb give you a bit of a bruise really you may as well throw bags of sugar at him. a 4ft pick axe handle ! now your talking

    can you hold a hallway, maybe, what weapon has he got ? how determined is he to get past, if your stood between him and the exit with the police on their way, you may have a fight on your hands. a bruised rib against a stretch inside sounds a fair trade
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  6. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Just to clarify, when you say you are a psychopath, are you suggesting you have antisocial personality disorder, meaning you fit the following criteria (according to the DSM-5)?

    Or is it just a way for you to say "I like to fight and am a selfish person"?
     
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  7. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think you meant to say “zombie bears with crash helmets = awesome!”
     
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  8. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

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    I pretty much skipped through the posts on weapons, and just read the zombie posts.

    Thank you for a very entertaining thread... hilarious XD
     
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  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Cold steel Brooklyn shorty.
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I was a dms instructor in hocks system for a while there. Which was pretty much that.
     
  11. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    that's a very expensive rounders bat !

    but yes a much more flexible weapon
     
  12. Rat

    Rat 2nd Black Belt

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    you hold or you die. and that sounds like a throwaway film line. :p And i have knives so i would use one of them.(and they are the easiest to reach if something goes bump in the night) And you dont have to wait THAT long if somone is breaking in/you are engaged in fighting they stick that at the top of the list as immediate harm can happen. So you should unless they are busy with priority calls, get their highest response time. Plus, most criminals leave if they are engaged. Unless the intent is to murder you, but then as we should all know fighting back increases the chance of you surving as plenty GTFO when they find out you arent a push over. (not everyone but enough for it to be valid/a rule, but for all rules exeptions exist) its mainly the fact some burglars will run away when caught others will charge you. or if they are trying to murder you etc, but engagement increases your chances of living as you are proving you arent a victim, so long as you dont prevent them from leaving i mean.

    and adreniline does weird things to people. also if they dont disengage when trying to kill you, you either kill them or they kill you. there is not much more to say on the matter, you are kind of forced into said situation if they break into your home with intent to murder you.





    Also if i brought a SMLE to said situation why wouldnt i shoot them? No mention of it being a decommisioned SMLE. And in this said fantasy scenerio it would be lawful for me to shoot them if i could lawfully bring a live SMLE to the situation.




    Given my intrest in weapons and the like, you can imagine i will have a few things laying around. :p
     
  13. Rat

    Rat 2nd Black Belt

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    just to get this out the bag. Cite a martial art that uses the baseball bat. As a proper weapon and a specfic weapon to their training. (and schools are common enough for nearly everyone to attend) And it has to be one of the first things you learn for the point to be valid.


    I used "training" to mean, if you take it outside and "play around" with it, you will understand its dyanmics. there is nothing special about this nor anything you need to seek out any sort of "proffesional" for. you get a feel for a object and its dynamics when you use it. I dont personally have a baseball bat i am working from its aprox length and looking for things that use similary sized objects. (given drop bear has cited the cold steel bat line which come in several lengths) and obviosuly weight changes based on material and size and if you get a regulation bat or not. (which changes the characteristics per org)

    I also dont have suffcient training equipment to put it to a full pressure test if i had a baseball bat. (and no training versions really exist of it, as its not a martial weapon)


    You are also vastly under estimating how easy it is to learn to use a weapon so-so effectively especially discussing averages here. i have also stated i would rather take a knife and have more access to them. I understand you need to practice a little to get some of the skills you need down and to understand your weapon to use it, but i have a feeling you think you need to spend a lot of time to be suffcient in learning how to use it.

    the real question here is, do i have to seek out potetionally expensive and time consuming self proclaimed experts, or is what i can do at home, or with a sparring partner suffcient to half sword a baseball bat and force somone out of my home? or go swining mad on them? or a mix of both? and yes unarmed fighting happens when weapons are involved thats a reality of combat, you still get a edge with one. (but i never mentioned not doing unarmed fighting alongside it)

    i firmly sit in the, self practice is suffcient to deal with the common criminal. And if we want to play what if's, what if 8 people storm into your home with armour and automatic weapons? (which can happen in some places)


    Also, just because it mildly bothers me when people act like you need to dump years into twirling a staff to use it correctly, look up how easily spears and simulated spears (staff's) do against swords? and the people using them have 0 training in them. or have a "you hold it like this". The spear/polearm has dominated many pre firearm battlefields and earlt firearm battlefields. and all it is, is a long wooden cylader with a bit of pointy metal at the end in its simpliest cofnigeration. Or even a sharpened wooden cylander. Not fully related to the argument at hand, a pet peeve of mine though. (related to the thread though somewhat)
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  14. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    no your pet peeve is people telling you you need to take some formal training, and you really do if you want to reach any level of proficiency, unless you happen to be extroidany gifted and even then you will be better again with high quality instruction

    can you learn how to fight proficiently with a base ball bat on your own just twirling it about. NO

    the best use you could put a baseball bat to is hitting fast moving baseballs with it, which is very difficult. it will do absolute wonder for you spatial awareness, co ordinations and reactions. further down the line you may be able to hit a fast moving person with it.

    other than that hitting a punch bag may improve your coordination a bit, but they don't move or hit back

    you cant really practice realistically with a partner as if you ever do manage to hit them, they are going to the hospital.

    all base ball bats irrespective of the material are much the same weight for length, with some variation for individual preference. make them to heavy and you cant accelerate them, make them to light and there much reduced momentum, they all have to be in that zone. you don't even know that, so i'm at a loss as to why you think you can tell people how to train with or use them
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
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  15. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    When they develop to the point you want to hurt people, that's called being the bad guy.
    Yes, you do need an expert. This guy tells the story - he had wrestling experience, and he tried to learn BJJ at home. And he feels like all that time was wasted.


    When you train by yourself, at home, even if you have videos and articles at your disposal, what you're missing is:
    • Feedback on your technique from the instructor
    • Commentary on the technique organic to your training session
    • Competent partners to spar against
    You just don't want to admit that experts know more than you. You would rather reinvent the wheel than admit it's okay to take lessons. For some reason, you see it as a weakness to follow the advice of someone with more experience than you, instead of a strength. And so you come in with a ton of suppositions, most of them wrong. You come in with a ton of theories that you have no testing or experience to back them up. You have ideas on how things work, that it seems you put a lot of mental effort into. So go take some classes and actually learn something. Get someone to focus that mental effort into actual training, instead of just theorycrafting.
     
  16. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    and as ive said several times there not a very good weapon, there are designed to be used with two hands, there effective weight is to great to use them effectively one handed. there to short to be a good proding weapon and to blunt/ not heavy enough to be a good stabbing weapon

    they have a gangsta reputation, but so does holding you gun sideways over your head and blasting off caps in the rough direction of your target and that not good either.

    the safest place to be in a gangsta shootout is right next to the intended target
     
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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  18. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I’ve had the chance to train a bit of Irish stick fighting with @lklawson, but we didn’t do any dancing with whiskey bottles. I feel cheated.
     
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  19. Rat

    Rat 2nd Black Belt

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    Several seperate arguments here you have combined. My pet peeve is people over estimating how long it takes to become profincint with certain weapons (the spear in this case)and how easy it is to use them. if you wish to argue that point, ARGUE THAT POINT. My fundemental point on training is, it doesnt take as long as some people belive and think it does to become proficint with many weapons to use them in a defensive manner against the common criminal. i dont dispute if you get good isntruction and spend more time on training well that you get better at using them. But there are still more cost effective and time effective methods at learning weapon skills than going to your standard TMA school. (if they even teach you how to fight with them)



    Most people in that to my knowledge have little training in how to use a spear, please tell me how exeptional they are because they learnt to use a easy to use weapon and a effective one that doesnt take long to use effectively?

    Never stated to twirl a baseball bat around.

    Punching bags do move and there are a varity of moving targets you could use, i did also state to use a partner and a partner is the best form of training.

    That is a issue a lot(if not all) of weapons fall under, the issue it mitigated with correct PPE and restraint. And using (if avalible) safe training versions of the weapons. And unarmed falls under this issue as well, just to a lesser degree.

    Never stated that they vary that much, just stated that they can in dimensions, and that variences do exist. If it came out as me stating it like they vary a lot then thats on my typex of the issue.

    I second that general notion, but you use what you have, and as we started discussing bats i was discussing how to make them work as a weapon if you had nothing else. I also didnt state they would be a good stabbing weapon. I have seen some people in role plays with bats swing one handed though. So some people do use them one handed at least some of the time.
     
  20. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    First off, why are you assuming that "TMA" is the only schools that will teach you?

    Second, your opinions on how important training is to martial arts is by far in the minority. You need quality instruction and training partners to sharpen your skills. You're not gonna get that without training in a school built to teach it.123
     

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